steves towcar suggestions

[JamesFrance]

I would really like to know who has set the recognised limit referred to by Clive. Presumably the same person who has compiled the safety guidelines.

The 85% figure must have originated somewhere as it is obviously talked about a lot, but where?

This may be well known to those with long experience of caravanning. I used to be involved in transporting plant and machinery years ago and don't remember this being an issue.

Is it peculiar to caravans because of their aerodynamics?

 

[Lol1]

I would really like to know who has set the recognised limit referred to by Clive. Presumably the same person who has compiled the safety guidelines.

The 85% figure must have originated somewhere as it is obviously talked about a lot, but where?

This may be well known to those with long experience of caravanning. I used to be involved in transporting plant and machinery years ago and don't remember this being an issue.

Is it peculiar to caravans because of their aerodynamics?

It is peculiar to caravans and trailers using a hitch, James. When you couple a HGV type trailer to its tractor unit, you increase the weight of that tractor unit by approx 1/2 the weight of the trailer and its load. This and with the fact that the coupling is "amidships" of the tractor, makes the rig very stable. When you hitch a caravan you increase the cars weight by very little (the tow hitch load) so the forces applied to the car by the caravan are proportionately greater. That is why, the heavier the tow car, the safer it is at towing.

The figure of 85% may not be adopted anywhere else but in the UK but it is still a good guideline for the inexperienced tower. It is designed to compensate for inadequacies of the rig and driver and to my mind is fully justified.

Just because it is legal to do something, it doesn't mean you should. It is legal for me to tow 2.8 tonnes at 60mph down a motorway and for other 4x4s to tow 3.5 tonnes. It does not stress how that has to be loaded or what it is I am towing. So in fact I could tow a container weighing 2.8 tonne of water in a container on the motorway. Is it legal? Yes, but is it safe? No.

This is an exaggerated example, but I use it to get across the point, the 85% figure is there to include a safety margin, pass it at your peril.

 

[Steve L]

Here we go again, people trying to drag a sensible conversation down to the depths of something they know the mods will react to and start deleteing, just because people are having an open debate.

Just for your satisfaction Lol, I have mentioned 4X4 and I have actually owned and driven several myself, but that is not what this discussion is about. For the second time on the forum we as a group of fellow caravanners have tried to hold an informative and mature debate on what is perhaps a subject that worries the heck out of most begginers. That is how does my VEHICLE behave when towing fully loaded.

Now then lets open the lid on the 85% debate. It is pure mith that towing at 85% of the tow limit will inherantly give a "safe" tow for the novice. I can substanciate that one too.

I drove from Glasgow to Leominster (some 560 miles) with a Jaguar 420 (1967) on top of a 12ft 6in deck of my Ifor Williams trailer behind my 2Ltr Espace. Now let me see the Jag weighed 38hundred weight (1900kgs) the trailer 400Kgs, so that gave a conservative estimate of 2300Kgs behind a carbon fibre bodied car with a tow limit of 1800Kgs. Yes it was well overloaded. I'd still made sure that the hitch weight was on the maximum for the car at 75Kgs. Now down to the shear weight behind the car, I could only get 50Mph on the motorway and about 40Mph on trunck roads, but I towed that outfit home in 14 hours without one single "hairy" moment.

I can feel the draft from the arms being thrown in the air in disgust, and you are probably quite right, it was a totally daft caper but wait there's more.

The flip side to this was that the next week my driver who used to be a vehicle capability trainer for Land Rover at Solihull was driving our Diahatsu F70 (yep it's 4X4 and rated to tow 3500Kgs) towing the same Ifor Williams trailer, but loaded with 3000Kgs of steel rods (Approx 12000 pieces). He was driving along the M5 and due to lack of concentration (his words) he missed the impending que of traffic building up and had to break late. He lost control and "jack knifed" the outfit in the middle lane of the M5. Fortunately he was not hurt and the Diahatsu did stay upright despite bursting both rear tyres and hitting the armaco with it's front end as it was whiped round like a rag doll.

The driver got the tyres replaced and stupidly carried on to finish his day's deliveries. (remember what I said about his past experience!!)and I only got to find out what had happened when he got back to the factory. The Diahatsu was repaired at a cost of

 

[CliveV]

It is peculiar to caravans and trailers using a hitch, James. When you couple a HGV type trailer to its tractor unit, you increase the weight of that tractor unit by approx 1/2 the weight of the trailer and its load. This and with the fact that the coupling is "amidships" of the tractor, makes the rig very stable. When you hitch a caravan you increase the cars weight by very little (the tow hitch load) so the forces applied to the car by the caravan are proportionately greater. That is why, the heavier the tow car, the safer it is at towing.

The figure of 85% may not be adopted anywhere else but in the UK but it is still a good guideline for the inexperienced tower. It is designed to compensate for inadequacies of the rig and driver and to my mind is fully justified.

Just because it is legal to do something, it doesn't mean you should. It is legal for me to tow 2.8 tonnes at 60mph down a motorway and for other 4x4s to tow 3.5 tonnes. It does not stress how that has to be loaded or what it is I am towing. So in fact I could tow a container weighing 2.8 tonne of water in a container on the motorway. Is it legal? Yes, but is it safe? No.

This is an exaggerated example, but I use it to get across the point, the 85% figure is there to include a safety margin, pass it at your peril.

Well said that man!

 

[woodsieboy]

Having opened this thread originally I find it slightly depressing that what seemed at first to be positive responses to what I hoped would be constructive has degenerated to the usual slanging match re 4x4. I am sick of the 4x4 arguments, not so long ago it was bull bars, now it is 4x4s,we are all free to drive the vehicle of choice,why is it so difficult for people to live and let live when it comes to car choice, after all nobody seems to criticise other peoples choice of caravan. Or do they?

 

[RichardS1]

While I have stated on several times on this forum that there is no reason for a correctly loaded and driven outfit to be safe and stable at 95 or even 100% there is no doubting that the outfit will be a lot closer to the point of instability than the same vehicle towing an outfit at 85% or below.

I also agree that we are getting to the stage where we require better education before people tow for the first time. I don't know if its just me seeing these things but I spend a considerable amount of time on the road on business and this summer I have witnessed some horendous vehicle combinations. Probably the worst being a Mondeo TDCi which is a capable towcar but attached to the towball was a twin axle Elldis Crusader who's MIRO was more than the kerbweight of the Mondeo.

This was a brand new caravan which I would not mind betting that the owner was new to the hobby and bought the van without understanding the facts. As I have mentioned this isn't the first outfit I have seen like this this summer and my concern is that this sort of activity will in the long term be to the detriment of us all.

 

[KenWashington]

Would all users please re-read keith's original post at the top of this thread and stick strictly to topic from this point on.

 

[Steve L]

Agreed your moddyship. All I want to see is a debate that is balanced and informative.

 

[Lol1]

Steve, I know this is the second time that this debate has appeared. You probably don't remember from the first one, I supported your idea, just like I support Keith's idea. I too would like to know how a car would handle at max load, just because two cars look similar and have similar specs, it does not mean that they will handle the same. Only a few years ago PC were testing cars that were found wanting in the towing area, although perfectly capable while solo. I find this information interesting, and worthy of note.

I also know your past with 4x4s, you have mentioned it in the forum, but the subject was creeping in again, I could see this thread being deleted too. I have no wish for a 4x4 debate, I have had enough of them, as far as I am concerned, you drive what you want, so let me drive what I want.

As for the 85% rule, you are correct, loading is just as important. However it is difficult to police loading generally, it's down to human failure where that is concerned. However the 85% rule can be flagged up when the professional bodies come into contact with a caravanner. The reputable companies already do so, giving advice on what you can tow and what your better of towing

If your driver had been towing at 85% maybe he could have avoided the accident, I say maybe, because I was not there and didn't investigate the event.

You may well be ROSPA trained and part of the advanced drivers club, (I didn't realise they did a course that used caravans) but I am not, and nor are the vast majority that tow a caravan. You may feel safe towing at 100%, but would you trust someone who isn't as well trained to do the same? That's why it is a good rule, it helps overcome some of the inadequacies of fellow caravanners, myself included.

To be truthful, I don't like the 85% rule, no; I would much prefer the 85% law.

On nearly every occasion that I tow, my wife is sat besides me, and that alone is enough for me to want to make that journey as safe as possible. If it means buying a heavy car, checking the loading and using my noseweight gauge every time, then that is what I'll do. I can have fun and take risks when I am on my own, but I prefer to be sensible when someone else is involved.

Having said that, not everyone gets to choose their towcar, that is why the information you and Keith seek is important.

Now, go on, you were saying?

 

[Lol1]

Steve, I know this is the second time that this debate has appeared. You probably don't remember from the first one, I supported your idea, just like I support Keith's idea. I too would like to know how a car would handle at max load, just because two cars look similar and have similar specs, it does not mean that they will handle the same. Only a few years ago PC were testing cars that were found wanting in the towing area, although perfectly capable while solo. I find this information interesting, and worthy of note.

I also know your past with 4x4s, you have mentioned it in the forum, but the subject was creeping in again, I could see this thread being deleted too. I have no wish for a 4x4 debate, I have had enough of them, as far as I am concerned, you drive what you want, so let me drive what I want.

As for the 85% rule, you are correct, loading is just as important. However it is difficult to police loading generally, it's down to human failure where that is concerned. However the 85% rule can be flagged up when the professional bodies come into contact with a caravanner. The reputable companies already do so, giving advice on what you can tow and what your better of towing

If your driver had been towing at 85% maybe he could have avoided the accident, I say maybe, because I was not there and didn't investigate the event.

You may well be ROSPA trained and part of the advanced drivers club, (I didn't realise they did a course that used caravans) but I am not, and nor are the vast majority that tow a caravan. You may feel safe towing at 100%, but would you trust someone who isn't as well trained to do the same? That's why it is a good rule, it helps overcome some of the inadequacies of fellow caravanners, myself included.

To be truthful, I don't like the 85% rule, no; I would much prefer the 85% law.

On nearly every occasion that I tow, my wife is sat besides me, and that alone is enough for me to want to make that journey as safe as possible. If it means buying a heavy car, checking the loading and using my noseweight gauge every time, then that is what I'll do. I can have fun and take risks when I am on my own, but I prefer to be sensible when someone else is involved.

Having said that, not everyone gets to choose their towcar, that is why the information you and Keith seek is important.

Now, go on, you were saying?

HmmppHH, that should have been in the comment section for Steve.

Turn a blind eye Moddy, and I'll stop trying to guess who all the moddys are.....

 

[Steve L]

You are quite right about the AIM, they only do driver awareness and safe vehicle handling practices. But this does prepare a driver for being more observant and perceptive of people.

For instance if you saw a driver brushing his/her hair in the interior mirror you probably would do nothing, but if they then flung open the car door!!!!!!!! Now the AIM guides the thinking to, they are preening in the mirror, the road has no on comming traffic, I'll move to the right and slow down. when the car door opens as before all you get is a startled person exiting a car without looking and no sauce on your paintwork.

You only have to look at the safe towing forum this morning to see precisely the sort of practical advise and assistance the average motorist is looking for. A mondeo with a saggy rear. A perfect example of an article on preparing a car for towing be it by caravan loading technique, or updating what could be a tired suspension.

My brother-in-law had a Renault 25 which sat 2ins lower than mine and he couldn't understand why. He was quite proud of the fact that the car ws an ex Cartier jewllers reps car and ithad a very high security alarm system which still worked. I lifted the boot mat to see where we could run the trailer electrics and found several holes already there. You guessed it yet? The car had been carrying a dirty great boot safe for the last 120K miles, no wonder the suspension was sagging.

I too share your point on the sensative subject of certain vehicles and realy haven't got time for them.

My wife does not have the same towing experience as me but is quite happy to tow the caravan and take advice when required. We often work as a team as she is a very good map reader and navigator ( must of come from our rallying days). I have quite often come across people struggleing to park up their trailers on crouded motorway services but don't see anyone willing to help with guidance. But plenty of "rubber neckers".

I often politely offer my assistance and on occassions have reversed their unit for them. You see often a polite and sensative impromptu session on which way to turn the wheel is very much appreciated after a strenuous journey.

 

[JamesFrance]

Steve, I know this is the second time that this debate has appeared. You probably don't remember from the first one, I supported your idea, just like I support Keith's idea. I too would like to know how a car would handle at max load, just because two cars look similar and have similar specs, it does not mean that they will handle the same. Only a few years ago PC were testing cars that were found wanting in the towing area, although perfectly capable while solo. I find this information interesting, and worthy of note.

I also know your past with 4x4s, you have mentioned it in the forum, but the subject was creeping in again, I could see this thread being deleted too. I have no wish for a 4x4 debate, I have had enough of them, as far as I am concerned, you drive what you want, so let me drive what I want.

As for the 85% rule, you are correct, loading is just as important. However it is difficult to police loading generally, it's down to human failure where that is concerned. However the 85% rule can be flagged up when the professional bodies come into contact with a caravanner. The reputable companies already do so, giving advice on what you can tow and what your better of towing

If your driver had been towing at 85% maybe he could have avoided the accident, I say maybe, because I was not there and didn't investigate the event.

You may well be ROSPA trained and part of the advanced drivers club, (I didn't realise they did a course that used caravans) but I am not, and nor are the vast majority that tow a caravan. You may feel safe towing at 100%, but would you trust someone who isn't as well trained to do the same? That's why it is a good rule, it helps overcome some of the inadequacies of fellow caravanners, myself included.

To be truthful, I don't like the 85% rule, no; I would much prefer the 85% law.

On nearly every occasion that I tow, my wife is sat besides me, and that alone is enough for me to want to make that journey as safe as possible. If it means buying a heavy car, checking the loading and using my noseweight gauge every time, then that is what I'll do. I can have fun and take risks when I am on my own, but I prefer to be sensible when someone else is involved.

Having said that, not everyone gets to choose their towcar, that is why the information you and Keith seek is important.

Now, go on, you were saying?

Hi Lol, I should still like to know who invented the 85%. When I mentioned transporting machinery before, I should have said that most of that involved things carried on trailers, rather than on artics which you thought I meant.

James

 

[MONKEY1]

God it feels good to be back on the forum. What I really missed is the over sensitivity of some people towards their chosen vehicle type (NOT!!). I think to the most of us it doesn't matter two hoots what a fellow caravaner or road user drives as long as they have the correct insurance, it's loaded sensibly so as not endanger anyone and it is safe working order.

There is no proof what so ever that a 4x4 is any safer than any other vehicle when towing. You quote me a report by recognised organisation such as RAC foundation, IRTE or ADAC and I write a public apology but there isn't anything to my Knowledge. Yes in THEROY a 4x4 will be safer to tow the largest vehicles because of it's sheer weight but a driver of many years towing will be safer at a 100% match than an inexperienced driver at a 70% match - this is based on accepted risk management principles.

Secondly Guys keep up with the times - Ten years ago most family cars had an out put of a tad under 100 bhp yet now its common place for the likes of Mondeo's, Vectras, Laguna's to come with 150 bhp on tap. Both my parents-in law drive 4x4 not because they live in the wilds they don't.

What they want is to be able to enter and exit they car in comfort something which is very important to them. They aren't interested really in MPG but in the fact that a car affords them mobility.

Freedom of choice is very important...So is the truth

Keith's Idea is a good one. I picked up a rival to PC today and what is interesting is the sheer breath of cars covered in the magazine from a Daihatsu Terrios to a Volvo XC 90 there's an awful lot of cars they look at in between inclusion Ford focus Renault Scenic, articles on a SH Rover75 etc.

I live in what would be termed middle Britain - Semi value

 

[MONKEY1]

Sorry for the above style. Windows is playing up with the Cut and paste may be MR Mod could do a bit of a Mr Sheen.

 

[ProfJohnL]

A good idea again. Thanks everyone for supporting this idea.

You see a lot of people gain confidence in the mis-percieved thought that if they towing a 600kg luggage trailer behind their Hummer then they are guaranteed a safe tow. That would represent about 25% ratio. But you could move 2 ton with a Mini if it was legal. You see I use my Renault 5 (1100cc) as a tow tug to move the twin axle van on and off our drive, for the majority of the move and then finish off with the motor mover.

If you were to ask an experienced Land Rover user which he would tow with he'd come back with, use the 110 model. Or tow with the long wheel base rather than the short wheel base. Why? Because they are more stable to tow with. You ask a farmer and he'd go for short wheel base for better off road and groung clearance.

You see again it is down to choices of use and practicallity.

Mr/Mrs average sales rep do not have the luxury of choice nor does the average family man. They all have to have what is given to them or what fits the bill of family demand the most, and for the least cost. After all a company would not shell out it's hard earned on a Merc for everyone when three Lagunas could be had for the same cost.

You only have to look at the most popular weekly trader mag to see how many pages of adds there are selling a particular model of car and "old Henry" is way out in front.

So I think Kieth is right, there should be reports on tow cars of all makes and marques to give a balanced and more representative overview of tow ability of caravans.

Craig, you are right too. Even I sing the praises of my 1998 Laguna for it's ability to tow our twenty foot twina xle van. The thing is though, I chose this particular estate car over a Volvo because of it's suitability to carry our dogs (the window of the tail gate opens), the great fuel economy (I'm a tight wad,) the low service costs (based on experience of owning 16 previous Renaults and not spending more than

 

[ProfJohnL]

I would really like to know who has set the recognised limit referred to by Clive. Presumably the same person who has compiled the safety guidelines.

The 85% figure must have originated somewhere as it is obviously talked about a lot, but where?

This may be well known to those with long experience of caravanning. I used to be involved in transporting plant and machinery years ago and don't remember this being an issue.

Is it peculiar to caravans because of their aerodynamics?

Hello James

Contrary to Lol's statement the 85% figure was derived onlyin relation to caravans, not just because of thier aerodynamics (or lack of) but because of all their other atributes. It was not derived for all trailers though I do agree that it is a sensible target for novice tuggers.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Steve, I know this is the second time that this debate has appeared. You probably don't remember from the first one, I supported your idea, just like I support Keith's idea. I too would like to know how a car would handle at max load, just because two cars look similar and have similar specs, it does not mean that they will handle the same. Only a few years ago PC were testing cars that were found wanting in the towing area, although perfectly capable while solo. I find this information interesting, and worthy of note.

I also know your past with 4x4s, you have mentioned it in the forum, but the subject was creeping in again, I could see this thread being deleted too. I have no wish for a 4x4 debate, I have had enough of them, as far as I am concerned, you drive what you want, so let me drive what I want.

As for the 85% rule, you are correct, loading is just as important. However it is difficult to police loading generally, it's down to human failure where that is concerned. However the 85% rule can be flagged up when the professional bodies come into contact with a caravanner. The reputable companies already do so, giving advice on what you can tow and what your better of towing

If your driver had been towing at 85% maybe he could have avoided the accident, I say maybe, because I was not there and didn't investigate the event.

You may well be ROSPA trained and part of the advanced drivers club, (I didn't realise they did a course that used caravans) but I am not, and nor are the vast majority that tow a caravan. You may feel safe towing at 100%, but would you trust someone who isn't as well trained to do the same? That's why it is a good rule, it helps overcome some of the inadequacies of fellow caravanners, myself included.

To be truthful, I don't like the 85% rule, no; I would much prefer the 85% law.

On nearly every occasion that I tow, my wife is sat besides me, and that alone is enough for me to want to make that journey as safe as possible. If it means buying a heavy car, checking the loading and using my noseweight gauge every time, then that is what I'll do. I can have fun and take risks when I am on my own, but I prefer to be sensible when someone else is involved.

Having said that, not everyone gets to choose their towcar, that is why the information you and Keith seek is important.

Now, go on, you were saying?

Lol

The road vehicle regulations covertwoing vehicles and trailers. They do not single out cars adn caravans, and as such the law regognises teh manufactures stated limits on MPTLM's etc. The 85% was derived by the caravan fraternity and carries no weight in law, it is therfore a guidline not a rule.

 

[sparkes]

Wow, Long posts and no time

So my comment is

Give them all mini's one month and then work upwards, always selecting a suitable van at 85% max. Lets see how long it takes to find a livable solution and where the real world interacts.

Steve

 

[Steve L]

Well even Monkey can conduct a straw poll and come up with just the range of vehicles we are talking of.

Your quite right on the BHP increases too. Car manufacturers are trying to get more power for less fuel consumption and lower emmissions, and succeeding too.

The point about caravanning being "classless" is one I share too. I've written before on that subject and without touching too many nerves some folk still think a particular style of vehicle gives automatic rise in "class". One of the current "in toys" seems to be an American exmilitary personel car.

Going back a couple of decades it was personal number plates that were in, until the market was flooded with cheap three letter plates, but you still have to go to the western island to get a TAZ plate as that is still a popular cartoon series.

Yes by now you've guessed it, I've got a plate too. To me it is a symbol of togetherness for me and the misses as it depicts both our initials. As for class,it makes not a jot of difference to me or her in doors. I've always said "you can call me what you like but never call me late for breakfast" (work that one out).

It would be an interesting excersise for you to pop round you fellow caravanners and ask what they believe are the ups and downs of their towning experiences. ( dog nab it, been away, and now you've got homework to do??!!). Go on, I dare ya.

Next time I'm on site I'll ask a few fellow campers to see what they say. (I even do my homework when away. goody two shoes me. he he.)

Steve.

 

[Steve L]

Well even Monkey can conduct a straw poll and come up with just the range of vehicles we are talking of.

Your quite right on the BHP increases too. Car manufacturers are trying to get more power for less fuel consumption and lower emmissions, and succeeding too.

The point about caravanning being "classless" is one I share too. I've written before on that subject and without touching too many nerves some folk still think a particular style of vehicle gives automatic rise in "class". One of the current "in toys" seems to be an American exmilitary personel car.

Going back a couple of decades it was personal number plates that were in, until the market was flooded with cheap three letter plates, but you still have to go to the western island to get a TAZ plate as that is still a popular cartoon series.

Yes by now you've guessed it, I've got a plate too. To me it is a symbol of togetherness for me and the misses as it depicts both our initials. As for class,it makes not a jot of difference to me or her in doors. I've always said "you can call me what you like but never call me late for breakfast" (work that one out).

It would be an interesting excersise for you to pop round you fellow caravanners and ask what they believe are the ups and downs of their towning experiences. ( dog nab it, been away, and now you've got homework to do??!!). Go on, I dare ya.

Next time I'm on site I'll ask a few fellow campers to see what they say. (I even do my homework when away. goody two shoes me. he he.)

Steve.

dam it I'll have to write 100 lines on how to spell towing.

miss out the N after W. Towing,Towing,Towing,Towing, times 25 = 100. Got the cane for that way of writing it 100 times, at school.