Just got my renewel notice through for my quartely fee from my caravan storage site. It states 'All property is left on site entirely at owners own risk'. Surely if they say that they are a cassoa gold rated facility providing top notch security recommended by top insurers are'nt they liable for any theft because of them not fulfilling they're obligations in looking after your property. If not why bother at all with these storage sites.
Storage site libility.
- Thread starter PaulIrons
- Start date
Im not certain, but car parks are the same with get out clauses until some recient court cases have brought them to boot. So you may have some redress if you take them to court. Trouble is, how many would just claim on their Insurance and forget it!! I think I would especially if its less hassle.
Brian
Brian
Hi,
I am sure that the I read somewhere that if a business charges to use it's facilties then they are liable for damage to the property. Some car parks can get away with this as they either do not charge, or the charge is a 'up keep' fee not a profit (yeh right!) A caravan storage yard however is a business, as without any caravans left there, they would have no trade and therfor no business.
Any legal eagles out there care to qualify?
I am sure that the I read somewhere that if a business charges to use it's facilties then they are liable for damage to the property. Some car parks can get away with this as they either do not charge, or the charge is a 'up keep' fee not a profit (yeh right!) A caravan storage yard however is a business, as without any caravans left there, they would have no trade and therfor no business.
Any legal eagles out there care to qualify?
This is one that pops up regularly. It is my understanding that caveat emptor applies as regards where you choose to store your caravan.
The insurance the Storage Facility has will be Public and Professional Liability insurance NOT insurance to cover your van.
If you read your insurance cover details for your caravan it will no doubt state where it is coverred and where it is not. Storage on a highly rated site will probably be OK as long as you have a hitch lock, and a wheel lock of some kind. Any further antitheft devices will gain further discount. Similarly, your insurance may be invalid if your caravan is pinched whilst it is stored in a farmers field if your policy says if stored it MUST be on a certificated storage site
If the Storage Site somehow took over responcibility for insuring your caravan whilst it is with them then you would only need to buy a caravan insurance plan that runs for the time you have it out of storage.
In the event of a claim for damage whilst stored, you would claim on your insurance and your insurance company would investigate what happened and if appropriate try to reclaim some or all of the payout from the Site Owner if negligence on their part can be proved.
Choosing a good site together with a good insurance company is vitally important. Visit the storage site - if it is clean and tidy with good obvious security it should be OK.
Same with Insurance Companies - ask for their Standard & Poors Financial Strength rating - should be 'A' at least best is 'AAA'. If 'B' or lower go somewhere else. If you choose a finacialy weak insurer what do you think they will try to do to a claim?
DO NOT buy insurance from free leaflets in any mag. Go to a good broker or buy from a respected source such as the CC or CC&C.
The insurance the Storage Facility has will be Public and Professional Liability insurance NOT insurance to cover your van.
If you read your insurance cover details for your caravan it will no doubt state where it is coverred and where it is not. Storage on a highly rated site will probably be OK as long as you have a hitch lock, and a wheel lock of some kind. Any further antitheft devices will gain further discount. Similarly, your insurance may be invalid if your caravan is pinched whilst it is stored in a farmers field if your policy says if stored it MUST be on a certificated storage site
If the Storage Site somehow took over responcibility for insuring your caravan whilst it is with them then you would only need to buy a caravan insurance plan that runs for the time you have it out of storage.
In the event of a claim for damage whilst stored, you would claim on your insurance and your insurance company would investigate what happened and if appropriate try to reclaim some or all of the payout from the Site Owner if negligence on their part can be proved.
Choosing a good site together with a good insurance company is vitally important. Visit the storage site - if it is clean and tidy with good obvious security it should be OK.
Same with Insurance Companies - ask for their Standard & Poors Financial Strength rating - should be 'A' at least best is 'AAA'. If 'B' or lower go somewhere else. If you choose a finacialy weak insurer what do you think they will try to do to a claim?
DO NOT buy insurance from free leaflets in any mag. Go to a good broker or buy from a respected source such as the CC or CC&C.
Clive,
From you other postings I understand that you have connections with the insurance business, therfore I would expect you to know the workings of the system better than I.
Paul Irons posting raises the question of what is different between a service centre and storage site. Both are businesses, which have been established to provide a service for what is likely to be the same customer.
Both operations have a duty of care to prevent loss or damage or deterioation of the property left in thier care.
This being so, where as a servcie centres main function is to work on caravans (security is secondary but it is important) that they can be more easily held responsible if loss or damage ensues, yet a storage site which specialises in security can get away without absorbing the responsibility if any of the low life get in and damage or steal customers property?
These storage companies are inviting people to use them because they are secure and many yet they have the audacity to shirk thier responsibilities if thier security goes wrong. These sites claims are not worth the paper they are written on.
This is morally wrong.
Comments?
From you other postings I understand that you have connections with the insurance business, therfore I would expect you to know the workings of the system better than I.
Paul Irons posting raises the question of what is different between a service centre and storage site. Both are businesses, which have been established to provide a service for what is likely to be the same customer.
Both operations have a duty of care to prevent loss or damage or deterioation of the property left in thier care.
This being so, where as a servcie centres main function is to work on caravans (security is secondary but it is important) that they can be more easily held responsible if loss or damage ensues, yet a storage site which specialises in security can get away without absorbing the responsibility if any of the low life get in and damage or steal customers property?
These storage companies are inviting people to use them because they are secure and many yet they have the audacity to shirk thier responsibilities if thier security goes wrong. These sites claims are not worth the paper they are written on.
This is morally wrong.
Comments?
John! - If you are looking for moral responsibility one place I can guarantee you will not get it is in the Insurance Industry!
You only have to look at the appalling behaviour of *&* to realise that.
However, there are some good providers out their that are responsible and do want to give a good service. Those of us that are IFA's (and of course the Insurance Brokers as Caravan Insurance is a General Insurance) have the claims paying history and financial strength data in front of us and so can offer best advice. I am currently battling with the vestiges of the Oldest Mutual Life Office in the world ( the one that tried to renege on its contractual obligations to clients and lost its case at the final Law Lords stage some years ago) on behalf of a number of clients who were blatantly misinformed on what a "managed pension" was. I have little time for most Life Offices or Insurers.
However, the point you make is relevant BUT I think the case history (the law in the UK is based on legislation backed up by actual case law) now dictates that just as a car park can have a sign saying that you leave your car here at your own risk, so to can a caravan storage site. There was a case many years ago where (I think it was NCP) used to issue such a disclaimer on the ticket that you bought to park your car. This was successfully challenged in law because you could not actually read the terms of the contract until after you had bought your ticket. Thus not even Caveat Emptor applied. So now all car parks (and I assume Caravan storage sites must display a disclaimer) If they do not then there insurance would be invalid (see previous post re the type of cover they have) I would suggest that in the event of a widespread disaster - fire for example that takes out a couple of caravans then your own insurance company will be able to recoup some of its costs.
A Garage is somewhat different in that you and the garage agree what is to be done and here case law (I think) basically states that the garage agrees to return your car with the work done or the problem fixed. In other words the car is to be returned in better condition that when it went in. Thus the Garage has to have a policy that will pay out to those individuals that had contracted the garage to do whatever work is required. The reason for this is that the garage MUST as part of its testing procedure actually drive your car. This makes a garage very different to a storage site or carpark where the only time your property would be used by another is if its been nicked!
Why a good storage site is valuable to those who use it is because YOUR premiums will be lower if the van is stored somewhere safe. Think what your car insurance premiums would go up by if you decided that parking it regularly in an inner city car crime zone seems a good idea? Your house, car insurance etc is governed by your post code.
NOW HERE IS A TIP! - THOSE OF YOU MOVING HOUSE - CALL INTO YOUR LOCAL INSURANCE BROKER WITH YOUR PROSPECTIVE NEW HOUSE POST CODE AND ASK FOR A HOUSE INSURANCE QUOTE AND INFORMATION ON THE "INSURABILITY" OF THE AREA. THIS IS OFTEN VERY ENLIGHTENING AND AT ODDS WITH WHAT THE ESTATE AGENT WILL BE TELLING YOU!
But again I am sure a shade of grey exists here - what about the car that is fixed and parked in the road and is then hit by another car. Which insurers get involved? The car has not been collected by you, but is no longer on the garage premises?
Rather than look for Morals in the Insurance world I suggest that your starting a quest for the Holy Grail is more likely to be successful.
You only have to look at the appalling behaviour of *&* to realise that.
However, there are some good providers out their that are responsible and do want to give a good service. Those of us that are IFA's (and of course the Insurance Brokers as Caravan Insurance is a General Insurance) have the claims paying history and financial strength data in front of us and so can offer best advice. I am currently battling with the vestiges of the Oldest Mutual Life Office in the world ( the one that tried to renege on its contractual obligations to clients and lost its case at the final Law Lords stage some years ago) on behalf of a number of clients who were blatantly misinformed on what a "managed pension" was. I have little time for most Life Offices or Insurers.
However, the point you make is relevant BUT I think the case history (the law in the UK is based on legislation backed up by actual case law) now dictates that just as a car park can have a sign saying that you leave your car here at your own risk, so to can a caravan storage site. There was a case many years ago where (I think it was NCP) used to issue such a disclaimer on the ticket that you bought to park your car. This was successfully challenged in law because you could not actually read the terms of the contract until after you had bought your ticket. Thus not even Caveat Emptor applied. So now all car parks (and I assume Caravan storage sites must display a disclaimer) If they do not then there insurance would be invalid (see previous post re the type of cover they have) I would suggest that in the event of a widespread disaster - fire for example that takes out a couple of caravans then your own insurance company will be able to recoup some of its costs.
A Garage is somewhat different in that you and the garage agree what is to be done and here case law (I think) basically states that the garage agrees to return your car with the work done or the problem fixed. In other words the car is to be returned in better condition that when it went in. Thus the Garage has to have a policy that will pay out to those individuals that had contracted the garage to do whatever work is required. The reason for this is that the garage MUST as part of its testing procedure actually drive your car. This makes a garage very different to a storage site or carpark where the only time your property would be used by another is if its been nicked!
Why a good storage site is valuable to those who use it is because YOUR premiums will be lower if the van is stored somewhere safe. Think what your car insurance premiums would go up by if you decided that parking it regularly in an inner city car crime zone seems a good idea? Your house, car insurance etc is governed by your post code.
NOW HERE IS A TIP! - THOSE OF YOU MOVING HOUSE - CALL INTO YOUR LOCAL INSURANCE BROKER WITH YOUR PROSPECTIVE NEW HOUSE POST CODE AND ASK FOR A HOUSE INSURANCE QUOTE AND INFORMATION ON THE "INSURABILITY" OF THE AREA. THIS IS OFTEN VERY ENLIGHTENING AND AT ODDS WITH WHAT THE ESTATE AGENT WILL BE TELLING YOU!
But again I am sure a shade of grey exists here - what about the car that is fixed and parked in the road and is then hit by another car. Which insurers get involved? The car has not been collected by you, but is no longer on the garage premises?
Rather than look for Morals in the Insurance world I suggest that your starting a quest for the Holy Grail is more likely to be successful.
unfortunately,caravan storage sites have no obligation to your van other than to make sure its secure.unless you can prove any damage done to your van was down to there neglect(can be very costly if you go to court and hard to prove )youve got no chance.
lets face it,AS HAS BEEN SAID ,READ THE SMALL PRINT ON YOUR CONTRACT the same as car parks,which are sort of storage points for short periods for which we pay,but they dont accept liability for your car either,same as storage sites.
a lot of storage sites if not all, will not store your van unles it is insured,mine actually asked for insurance details.
lets face it,AS HAS BEEN SAID ,READ THE SMALL PRINT ON YOUR CONTRACT the same as car parks,which are sort of storage points for short periods for which we pay,but they dont accept liability for your car either,same as storage sites.
a lot of storage sites if not all, will not store your van unles it is insured,mine actually asked for insurance details.
OK
Here is a challenge to any storage site operator. If you are calling your facility "secure" why don't you put your money where your mouth is an accept liability if a customers van is broken into or vandalised.
If that happens then by definition your site is not secure. Justify your position, and the high rates you charge.
Here is a challenge to any storage site operator. If you are calling your facility "secure" why don't you put your money where your mouth is an accept liability if a customers van is broken into or vandalised.
If that happens then by definition your site is not secure. Justify your position, and the high rates you charge.
COULDN'T AGREE MORE,but in their words not mine
'we are leasing you a piece of land where we will also provide security for your caravan for a nominal sum of money'
we cannot guarantee 100 % that your caravan will not be damaged or stolen within this contract therefore we cannot be responsible for any damage or theft from or to the vehicle while on these premises' and thats there get out clause,and thats why they insist on you having insurance while in storage with them
'we are leasing you a piece of land where we will also provide security for your caravan for a nominal sum of money'
we cannot guarantee 100 % that your caravan will not be damaged or stolen within this contract therefore we cannot be responsible for any damage or theft from or to the vehicle while on these premises' and thats there get out clause,and thats why they insist on you having insurance while in storage with them
Sorry John but you have missed the point.
What you ask for will not happen. It is down to what I said earlier about what a garage does and what a storage site does and is linked to "insurable interest"
You have an insurable interest as you own your caravan. The Storage site owner does not own you caravan and so would actually find it quite difficult to insure it.
The garage owner who repairs your car must have a "trade policy" as he will be driving your car on the road. Therefore legally he has an insurable interest.
The storage site owner by offering secure storage will enable you to obtain a discount on your own caravan insurance policy.
This will offset part of the cost of storage. Finally if the storage site were able to insure you caravan whilst on their premises it would mean that the item is insured twice!
So what would happen if your caravan had an electrical fault and caught fire. Its not the site owners fault so why should his policy pay out and his premiums go up?
You have to have your van insured in case the fault is YOURS and the fire damages the adjacent caravans - where does it all end?
It boils down to - if you own it and value it, the onus on you is to insure it. If you stored it on your drive and a slate fell off your roof and damaged the caravan what would you want to do - sue yourself for negligence?
What you ask for will not happen. It is down to what I said earlier about what a garage does and what a storage site does and is linked to "insurable interest"
You have an insurable interest as you own your caravan. The Storage site owner does not own you caravan and so would actually find it quite difficult to insure it.
The garage owner who repairs your car must have a "trade policy" as he will be driving your car on the road. Therefore legally he has an insurable interest.
The storage site owner by offering secure storage will enable you to obtain a discount on your own caravan insurance policy.
This will offset part of the cost of storage. Finally if the storage site were able to insure you caravan whilst on their premises it would mean that the item is insured twice!
So what would happen if your caravan had an electrical fault and caught fire. Its not the site owners fault so why should his policy pay out and his premiums go up?
You have to have your van insured in case the fault is YOURS and the fire damages the adjacent caravans - where does it all end?
It boils down to - if you own it and value it, the onus on you is to insure it. If you stored it on your drive and a slate fell off your roof and damaged the caravan what would you want to do - sue yourself for negligence?
Clive,
I havn't missed the point you made, I understand the concept of using an approved site to reduce your premium, but it is not reasonable for a company to offer a "secure" facility which entices customers to use its facilities, then to walk away scott free when thier "secuirty " is proven to be inadequate.
If the sites security is breached, why should that event fall on the customer.
A bank looks after your moneny (well at least in theory), if their secuirty is breached do they tell the customer "Oh you should have insured it" The principal is identical. As a customer you are entrusting a site owner with your valuable property for which you are paying them.
I accpet you point about an event such as an electrical fire, but that is not a breach of security, and as the owner you would be liable for your own damage, and potentially for any damage to other peoples property resulting from the fire.
I will not be drawn into a long debate with you on this. I have stated my view, and accpet yours and its value based on your expertise.
I see the issue and being unfair, and again the customer is in a no win situation.
My challenge remains, though I don't really expect any owner will respond - but who knows?.
Securicor and other armoured van companies wouldn't get away with what you are claimimng if they loose somebodies property whilst t is in thier care, they are liable! I cannot see any difference in principal between armoured vans and secure caravan storage.
It is just very anoying that Insurance companies
ther is
I see theres a lot of differences of opinion here. The Insurance company that Im with at the moment, like most companies no doubt, state the conditions of my policy and just a couple of those are: (A) 24hr security at the gate entrance and (B) 24hr lighting. So what happens if (A) falls asleep or is tending duties elsewhere and (B) fails for whatever reason. Does that make my Insurance void or is the storage site lible. It seems to me whatever way we all look at it we are all well and truely stuffed where Storage sites and Insurances are concerned. Thanks for all you replies.
Nice to be able to have a sensible discussion with all agreeing that our views may differ!
John - I accept that in a fair world what you suggest is correct. Problem is Case Law has dictated that car parks and storage sites can put up disclaimers. Sad but true.
As regards Pauls point - cannot emphasise enough the importance of documenting everything and getting it off to the insurer without delay.
Some time ago there was a posting complaining that an accident claim that happened 6 months before was refused! If you sadly have an accident - get witnesses, take photos, write it down on paper whilst it is fresh in your mind.
DO NOT RELY ON A TELPHONE CALL TO REPORT. Put it in writing and confirm they have recieved it.
Don't think I am defending the insurers but a while ago Car Insurers were spending more out in claims than they were taking in in premiums - due mainly to the impact of injury claims.
Ambulance chasing legal firms are making all insurers want to dispute any claim as now its not just "lete get your car fixed" but "lets claim
John - I accept that in a fair world what you suggest is correct. Problem is Case Law has dictated that car parks and storage sites can put up disclaimers. Sad but true.
As regards Pauls point - cannot emphasise enough the importance of documenting everything and getting it off to the insurer without delay.
Some time ago there was a posting complaining that an accident claim that happened 6 months before was refused! If you sadly have an accident - get witnesses, take photos, write it down on paper whilst it is fresh in your mind.
DO NOT RELY ON A TELPHONE CALL TO REPORT. Put it in writing and confirm they have recieved it.
Don't think I am defending the insurers but a while ago Car Insurers were spending more out in claims than they were taking in in premiums - due mainly to the impact of injury claims.
Ambulance chasing legal firms are making all insurers want to dispute any claim as now its not just "lete get your car fixed" but "lets claim
Hello Clive,
Yes the old favourite case Law, Teh justice system in the UK relies larggely on case law, but test cases can and do cause the esatblishment to think again.
I would love o see some of these antiquated anti consumer cases overturned, and I really belive that some of the will before too much longer.
Lets hope and see.
Yes the old favourite case Law, Teh justice system in the UK relies larggely on case law, but test cases can and do cause the esatblishment to think again.
I would love o see some of these antiquated anti consumer cases overturned, and I really belive that some of the will before too much longer.
Lets hope and see.
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