Suitability of car

[NTXF]

Hi. I tow a bailey pageant series 6 Burgundy MIRO 1180 KG
MPTLM 1400 KG
With a jaguar xf s 1800kg
Had the car from new so no previous history to worry about.
My problem is the feeling the caravan gives when cornering as though the caravan would far prefer to carry straight on .
Tyres are new and pressures are correct also tried upto 5 psi up or down on the car and caravan .
I adhere to the 75 kg noseweight limit and have tried various different loading configurations though we tend to carry very little .any thoughts ?
Problem 2
After my last trip the car developed a creak at the rear which after lengthy inspection turned out to be 3 broken spot welds below the rear parcel shelf . Unfortunately now out of warranty so probably no help there. Now repaired .
So back to my question is the problem my car or the caravan could this damage of occurred whilst towing .not 100 % sure but highly likely .
All my previous tow cars have been land rovers so no problem before so I am beginning to wonder if modern designed cars with lighter Materials are up to the job manufacturers would like us to believe though I would assume so a new cars are generally stiffer chassis design than previous models but does that mean more durable .
I have absolutely no idea what the pressures would be on a monocoque chassis compared to a ladder chassis during breaking from 60 mph with the weight of the caravan on the towbar a fair bit higher than 75 kgs I presume. Any comments thoughts great fully accepted .

 

[Raywood]

I have not heard of the problems mentioned but do wonder if the first problem is down to Jaguars having a relatively soft suspension which might need stiffening up if possible. I would have a word with the dealers about it.
As to the second, it does not sound like a towing related problem but more either a faulty weld or just the state of the roads today. I have had a couple of shock absorbers and springs go back that is all.

 

[NTXF]

Thanks for your input. Suppose a main dealer visit wouldn't do any harm . The suspension is quite hard as standard for a jaguar.
Cheers Nik

 

[Woodentop]

I wonder where you got the 75Kg noseweight limit from? According the towcar surveys on this site its limit is 100Kg. The maximum noseweight for the Al-Ko chassis is also 100Kg so the limiting factor will be your towbar rating - and I would be surprised if that is as low as 75Kg; 85- 90Kg or more is like it, and low noseweight will make serious difference to how the caravan handles.

 

[NTXF]

100 kg noseweight is for the 2014 model year cars .mine is 75kg
Cheers Nik

 

[ProfJohnL]

Under braking, and supposing the caravans' systems are working correctly, as the car slows, the caravan tries to continue forwards due to its inertia. as a consequence it compresses the coupling, and by doing so it starts to apply the caravan brakes which the slows the caravan, The actual transfer of thrust from the caravan to the car is at most only a small proportion of the trailers weight, as the trailers brakes ****** the caravan and reduce the forward thrust on the tow car.

But the nose load is a different matter, as the caravans brakes apply, the caravans inertia tries to continue moving forward, but as the trailers wheels are retarding the trailer it tries to tip forward increasing the verticak nose load on the tow vehicles coupling.

My concern with your report is how have you measured your nose load?.

 

[Hutch]

Prof, go straight to the naughty corner. Nose weights
A freind of mine run a caravan company and uses a Jag XF and says its one of the best tow cars he uses, So wourld think to looking at the Proff states going into corners and braking the unit might feel as though its going on, if I am in heavy dual carrigeway traffic and brake hard I can feel the van brake but in slower braking hardly notise the van, . Sante Fe towing a heavy Coachman 560.
Hutch

 

[NTXF]

I measure nose weight probably the same as most either on scales or more recently with a malenco scale. both options are within 2kg of each other .
I aim for between 70 to 75 kg noseweight (75 kg limit) .
I suppose I was just wondering what effect the forces have of braking and to a lesser extent acceleration have on the cars chassis .
Thanks for your answers so far appreciate the input
Just a point I have been towing caravans for near 30 years and never had the problem I feel with the jag .

 

[Dustydog]

See
http://www.jaguarforum.com/showthread.php?t=83607&page=3
All 3 pages seem to echo your own experience.
Does your jag have self levelling rear suspension?
This does sound like a nose load and overall loading issue. Maybe the Jag is less forgiving than your previous cars.?
When hitched up does the jag sag?

 

[NigelHutson]

NTXF

Since their introduction, we have tested XF's at the Tow Car Awards, in 2.7d, 3.0d, 2.2d and 2.0d guise, and without exception, they have all been brilliant. I distinctly remember one of them (3.0d Sportbrake I think) being utterly sublime on a horrible wet and windy day. When most other vehicles were getting blown about all over the place, the Jag didn't budge, to the point that I could concentrate on the superb Bowes and Wilkins(?) sound system and the piece of music playing (Shostakovich Piano Concerto!) rather than having a white knuckle ride. Please bear in mind that we push the cars far more than would be sensible on public roads and perform some quite violent manoeuvres. The caravans are all ballasted to 85% of the car's kerbweight (unless there is a lower restriction), and up to the permitted noseweight (obviously 100kg max for the caravans).

I know that this doesn't really help you with your problem, but it does sound that the problem is more to do with your combination than any inherrant fault with Jaguars generally. I hope you manage to resolve it, and enjoy the car as much as we've enjoyed our short spell with them.

Nigel.

 

[NTXF]

Dustydog/ Nigel thanks for your replies .no I don't have self leveling suspension and only a small amount of sag is present when hitched up and loaded ready to go though to be honest it's something I haven't measured .in no way do I overload in fact ime more of a lightweight freak to be honest and have been loading caravans for many years .
Maybe it's me and the feeling I get of the caravan trying to push the car wide on corners is just a general characteristic of the outfit and something I haven't been aware of afrer towing with land rovers for most of my caravaning life . I think I will give it this year and see how it goes and if I can't sort it will have a look at going back to a landy ..
Cheers Nik

 

[woodsieboy]

Just a thought, perhaps it is the caravan rather than the car,when was it last serviced and or when were the brakes checked, might also be worth checking the damper on the drawbar,

 

[NigelHutson]

NTXF,

I'm not sure which LR's you have owned, but there is certainly a difference between a good, big heavy 4X4 and a saloon car when towing. There are some exceptional cars out there (the XF in our opinion being one of them), but 1800kg of car will be pushed around more than 2500kg of well-planted 4X4 (thinking Discovery 4 here).

Of course there are some awful vehicles too (both cars and 4X4's), but for towing, over the past ten years, JLR haven't made one!

Would you have the opportunity to try a different car (not LR), borrowed from a family member or friend to compare yours?

Nigel

 

[NTXF]

Caravan serviced last September but how thorough that is is anyone's guess. The alco head is something I hadn't considered to be honest good thought I will check that out ASAP. We are away on Thursday so may be worth checking
Cheers

 

[NTXF]

Nigel . Towed with defender 90 110 and disco 2.3.4. and rr never had any issues only mpg !! Can't think of anyone who's car I could use but again excellent idea.
Cheers

 

[NTXF]

Nigel . Do you ever get any combination that just don't gel for some reason . I mean could a tow car be poor with one van design and good with another maybe an aerodynamic issue ..

 

[ProfJohnL]

Nigel . Do you ever get any combination that just don't gel for some reason . I mean could a tow car be poor with one van design and good with another maybe an aerodynamic issue ..

That is a difficult one to answer accurately, but certainly there are outfits I have towed which I'd rather not go back to, yet the same car with a different caravan may be sublime. Equally there are some outfits where one driver is perfectly happy, but another driver may find it uncomfortable, and even the same out fit and driver but different loading processes. there are so many variables it makes less of a science and more of an art.

I must admit that my first thoughts about your reports pointed to a possible problem with the caravans braking systems not fully applying the caravans brakes. This would certainly transfer more of the caravans inertia to the car. It is certainly a very sensible thing to get your caravans breaking system fully checked.

Sadly and regardless of how long anyone has been caravanning, the measurement of nose load has often been fudged. and the issue has been exacerbated by the plethora of so called nose weight gauges, which simply cannot do the job properly. The fact is the load applied to the tow ball changes if the height of the hitch is varied.

This applies to all tarilers where the trailers centre of gravity is higher than its axle, and it is doubly complicated where you have a twin axle caravan, So it is important to ensue the nose load measurment is made with the trailers hitch height exactly the same as when its coupled to the tow vehicle and ready to roll ( i.e fully loaded).

Unfortunately as none of the gauges that are available to domestic caravanners can adjust their measurement height, they cannot accurately mimic the height conditions of the coupled caravan. Further due to poor quality control most gauges are not accurate or consistent. And even the model that claims to be calibrated fails the adjustable height requirement of the EU regulations.

You will be better off using your caravan step as a base with a number of Practical caravan magazines to raise a set of bathroom scales to the hitches towing height.

 

[NTXF]

Interesting . again something I had never considered. Maybe the I've been doing this for years so I must be right theory needs to be scrapped .
Car is in for full service tomorrow so will be thoroughly checked .
I will load the caravan and measure as you advise and take for a test drive also will book in for a full brake check .
Many thanks to all for input and ideas very much appreciated.
Cheers Nik

 

[NigelHutson]

NTXF,

To answer your question simply, the answer is yes, and it can be down to car and/or caravan. I have towed some caravans with a good car, only to find that they're absolute pigs (generally older caravans I hasten to add), and then I've towed very good caravans (at the Tow Car Awards where it's almost Utopia) that have behaved implacably behind certain cars, and then been fidgety behind others. I was recently asked by a caravan dealership to tow a customers caravan (with their blessing I hasten to add) as the customer was complaining that it was very unstable behind their BMW 5-Series (like the XF, and excellent car in our opinion). I towed it with my own car, and whilst I wouldn't have said it was unstable behind my car, it certainly wasn't "settled".

I have a theory that aerodynamics have a part to play, especially at higher speeds, although I can't see this with your issue. Many of today's cars don't seem to be as stable as their predecessors, and I put that down to the air passing over the slippery shape of the car and then hitting the bluff front of a caravan. Something like the previous generation Discovery (shaped like a brick - but I personally love them) punches a big hole and the caravan obediently follows, but I personally found the Audi Q7 to be unsettled at higher speed (above 60 mph on test tracks).

Nigel

 

[ProfJohnL]

Both Nigel's and my own experience supports the hypothesis that a simple weight ratio is not an accurate guide to the quality of the towing experience. By the same token nor is the nose load a single defining factor, there is a lot more going on here which is not always immediately obvious or intuitive.

Whilst power to weight ratios will give some indication of relative acceleration in a straight line, even that has to be moderated by the power and torque curves of the engine. But driving is not just about acceleration and driving in lines, of probably more importance is the ability to steer and stop. And then its how the outfit rides over the typical road surface which is far from smooth; so the dimensions of the vehicle, the suspension travel and spring rating, and the distance from the tow vehicle's rear axle to the tow ball etc etc etc.

It is therefore very difficult to rate a tow vehicle simply by weight ratio on its own

 

[Hutch]

The Prof wrote.

and the distance from the tow vehicle's rear axle to the tow ball etc etc etc..

ON MY sante Fe 2014 with the Witter fixed to bar, the tow ball was 2 inchs futher back from the axle and an Inch lower. Than the Towtrust tow bar that I change to. The handeling with the caravan was better. And ended up with a happier tow therefore safer.

 

[Raywood]

In theory the shorter the distance from the back axle to the tow bar the better it should be, so cars with a short overhang should be better than those with a longer one. As the Prof says other things do come into play though, so the practice and the theory are not always the same, but it might be the height that was the factor here.

 

[xtrailman]

Can you get someone to tow your caravan, that could eliminate the car, or caravan.
Personally i would try a higher nose weight just for test purposes, i never found my Unicorn 1 easy to tow compared to my senator, towed with the same xtrail, but it improved noticeably behind a CX-5, shorter overhang with stiffer rear suspension.
I'm about to take delivery of a conqueror, it's anybody's guess how it will tow, but I'm hopeful.

 

[NTXF]

Update.. car serviced and given the thumbs up no issues whatsoever.
Caravan I decided to replace the wheel bearings. New brakes and a new tow hitch .the caravan was packed in a similar way and weighed noseweight as recommended but to 80 kg 5kg over I know..
Outfit towed like a dream I will try 75kg noseweight on homeward journey to see if I wasted a load of money!!
Many thanks to all who put their ideas forward very much appreciated.
Cheers Nik

 

[xtrailman]

Thanks for the update, let us know if reducing the NW is noticed.

I towed the same caravan with two xtrails, a T30 that was happy with 85kg, and a T30 that needed 90 to 95kg to make it stable.