The Logistics of towing a 2.5meter wide caravan with a regular large saloon or estate car.

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all out there. A thought has recently occured to me with respect to the inevertable flow of 2.5meter wide caravan that will be coming into the UK. I have not done my homework on this one but I would think that there are a few Twin Axle 2.5meter wide caravans out there just waiting to become the next mobile B&B.
With the legislation as it stands at present with regards to the ability to see rearward at 4meters out at either side and for a distance of 20meters behind something is going to need some serious looking at. I mean towing mirrors and the ability to gain sufficient adjustment to achieve the required rearwards view. I have struggled to get a good view of the rear corner of our 2001 Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco when being towed by our Volvo V70 2.4T. The caravan is listed at 2.258meters overall width.
It stands to reason that the longer the caravan the easier (theoretically) it is to see the very back corner positions. I made it easier on our old Twin Axle Fleetwood Colchester 1850 & especially in the dark by fitting some low-down marker lights(read to rear & white to front).
A great deal of the problem is mirror lens stability,the further out from the body of the car mirror the greater is the amount of flutter and vibration.
Does anyone know if this problem is being addressed,or indeed has already been an issue in wider Europe as opposed to just here in the UK?.

 

[Lutz]

That is an issue which should be addressed to the manufacturers of extension mirrors. Regarding flutter and vibration there are already better and not-so-good extension mirrors on the market and this is likely to be even more apparent for those intending to tow 2.5 wide caravans. All the more reason to buy a quality product. It is quite conceivable that extension mirrors which simply ride 'piggy-back' on the standard mirror will never be free from vibration in such cases and only door-mounted extension mirrors would solve the problem to an adequate degree of satisfaction.

 

[Surfer]

The length of the caravan has no bearing on your rearward vision and whether you can see the rear end of the caravan as this by law is not required. As long as you have adequate vision there is no issue.

 

[Lutz]

I have copied the following sketch showing the field of vision requirements out of the regulations as they are in force today:

It should be clear from this sketch that without seeing the rear corner of the caravan, one would not comply with the regulations. Consequently longer extension arms will be required for 2.5m wide caravans and these could quite understandably, as TheTravellingRooster has noted, aggravate a potential flutter and vibration problem.

 

[Surfer]

Lutz as you have found the link to this mind boggling information perhaps you can paste the link to the government website defining this regulation or law to substantiate your diagram. Thanks.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The sketch that Lutz has provided is cleary for a solo vehicle, however the same requirement for the reward vision is still the same for a towing outfit. It should be noted the required visible area includes the full side of any towed component at ground level.
As most caravans are wider than saloon cars, if the width of the caravan was greater that the tip to tip width of the cars wing mirrors, ther is no way the driver could see the whole length of the caravan body thus the feild of view would not be compliant with the regulations.
The consequence is the tip to tip width of the wing mirros must be greater than the with of the caravan body. This also means the wider the caravan the wider the wing mirrors need to be to be complaint.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Surfer. That was not the point of my post and is not an issue of legality anyway. I made mention of the inability to see my rearmost corners and the fact that I had fitted low-down marker lights to enable that need and especially at night. The idea of 26ft swing around on the back of a 16ft car in a dark area of public highway is not at all appealing. They have yet to be fitted to the Elddis Crusader SuperSirocco.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Prof John L. Actually the illustration that Lutz has provided is very similar to the one used in The Camping & Caravanning Club magazine of January 2010.
The technical difference is the dimension of 1metre from the outer face of the vehicle. On the illustration from C&CC magazine it shows a plan view of a car and caravan.The out-most point of the extended/towing mirrors are shown as level with the out-most edge of the caravan. All other dimensions would appear to be the same. The illustration is presented in 3differt colours representing the fields of vision.
Green- Required field of vision.
Blue- Field of vision without towing mirrors.
Red- Illegal blind area without towing mirror.
Interestingly, the Illegal area is only depicted to the NS (assuming that this is correctly for the UK and therefore a righthand drive vehicle is represented).

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Rooster,

I am aware of a very similar diagram - which is copyrited to Milenco, and in that one they do show the additional width of the caravan in tow.

If part of the requirement is to be able to see the entire side of the caravan when the outfit is perfectly lined up, then part of the mirror has to be beyond the physical width of the caravan.

If you look at the Milenco diagram, you will see the mirror on the RH side does in fact protrude beyond the caravan adn provides the necessary field of view.

The addition length needed for the extensions to be suitable for 2.5M caravans, will need to be looked at, but as the same regulations apply to the whole of the EU, the problems has probably already been solved elsewhere.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Prof John L. I was aware of the situation and intend tomorrow to scale it out on my FS Drawing Board using my 2000(W) Volvo V70 2.4T SE Geartronic as a 'model' for an average large family estate car.
I will post my findings in due course.

 

[forestgump]

the one that lutz gave is the one i posted a month ago afteer watching caravanfinder the police on m5 stated this as the new law as did a membre of vosa and caravan club techy.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi FG. The image that you refer to does not show the figurative car with Towing Mirrors. The image dimensions are projected straight from the position of the mirrors that are indicated as being in place (standard mirrors). I believe that the reality of a 2.5metre caravan on the back of a regular family saloon car or estate car will show a very different picture to the one you put up and indeed will show a markedly different image to the one that I have that was first shown in January 2010 in the C&CC magazine.

 

[Lutz]

All sketches shown in whatever source only represent the principle and apply to the mirror that is supposed to fulfil the requirements of the regulations, whether this be the standard mirror or the extension mirror. Obviously, if the caravan is significantly wider than the car, the standard mirrors won't comply with the regulations so in this case the sketch will apply to the extension mirrors. For the purpose of the law the standard mirror is ignored if extension mirrors are fitted. That's why the extension mirrors nowadays also have to be 'e' or 'E' marked.

 

[forestgump]

this was reviewd injune 2011 the view is 4mtrs from caravan uotwards on any size of van at a distance of 20 mtrs back like rock steadys and milenco you can extend the arm the sums stay the same on any van .

 

[Steve L]

I can concurr with most of what is said here.
One can never have enough safety mirrors fitted. My basic interpretation is that the best set up would be, to fit a pair of mirros to the car. set them so that a measurement of, Mirror inside edge of the glass of the right hand mirror and the inside edge of the left hand mirror glass equate to the width of the caravan (ie 2.5 mtrs). Also by equalising the gap between mirror and the side of the car, you will end up with the perfect mirror vision. Also as a by-product of this you will have a 15cm clearance guide for positioning in tight spaces. So then, if the car mirrors pass through the gap the caravan will if your towing straight ahead.
I use mirrors that allow the original car mirrors to still be used which gives you 2 views per side, on top of that, I have a blind spot mirror fitted on the left car mirror. I set the extension mirrors for best view of the sides of the caravan when driving straight. Then because my car mirrors are remote electric powered, I can set them to cover overtaking blind spot on the right and set the left mirror to pick up a view of the left wheels of the van when I pull out of tight T junctions, thus avoiding the kerb and the sudden jolt should I not be able to execute the manouver without mounting the pavement.

Now your car doesn't have to resemble a mod's scooter with 24 mirrors sicking out like a bunch of chrome flowers, but a couple of extra mirrors can mean a safer road trip and less stress of guessing where the caravan is going.

I wonder just how many car drivers can actually reverse using the door mirrors? I always find it amusing to see people reversing in the car park and obviously not looking in their mirrors or over their shoulders. They just wait for the 1/2 a mile per hour "bump" into the car behind to signify they have "landed". Mean while, there has been a que building of impatient "huffers" itching to get the frozen veg home before it defrosts.

 

[Dustydog]

One like this steve?

 

[Surfer]

Every one posts about the extension mirrors, but still no one can coem up with a true definition of adequate vision according to the law. I am in agreement with extension mirrors being fitted to improve safety, but woudl really like to know how the law sees it. No one seems to be able to find any relating to this including myself. I have asked a number of policeman on a forum and none can come up with a specific definition. They know that there is a law but do not know when they should be enforcing it which is why they don't pull over people without extenstion mirrors towing trailers. Too much of a hassle and difficult to prove in a court of alw.

 

[Lutz]

Surfer, I really cannot understand why you continue to ignore the legality of the Construction and Use Regulations and their reference to the required field of vision. Surely, it stands to reason, that conforming with the regulations amounts to being "adequate".
The law talks about exterior mirrors. If extension mirrors are not exterior mirrors, I don't know what is. Therefore, they have to comply with all the requirements relating to exterior mirrors.
That said, I can understand why the police aren't that interested in what constitutes "adequate" rear vision. They've got (or should have) better things to do. However, I can imagine that insurance companies would be very interested in the event of an accident. They would have every reason not to have to settle a claim if it can be proved that the driver overlooked someone coming up from behind due to lack of rearward vision.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Lutz. I think that even if surfer had a Myriad of Mirrors as per the Mods Scooters and a Court Judge declared that he was looking into the wrong mirror at the precise time of a mishap he would still argue the toss. The only way to get a full rearward view would be a complete 'Fish Eye' convex mirror and even then there would be so much distortion that it would be an eyeball watering exercise to ascertain the exact location of a pending issue.
PS. The post that I put on about doing a scaled drawing of the implications of towing a 2.5metre caravan with a regular saloon car or estate car involve only (in my case) mirrors with a greater level of extension potential approximately another 5" each side. Our existing van is 2.258metres wide and the mirror extension bar as it the limit. The reality is that a different mirror set-up would be needed all together.
I intend to consult with Milenco on Monday morning.

 

[Gafferbill]

I maintain you should have a 360deg view from your driving position barring what your trailer obscures.
What you cannot see directly by moving your head and eyes you should be able to see indirectly by looking via fitted mirrors.
You are asking for trouble if this is not the case.
I have applied this principle to a 38 ton articulated HGV and I apply it to my car and caravan.
Here in the UK even this is not good enough for refuse collection vehicles and by law they have to have a reversing camera fitted to achieve the whole 360deg view.

Please be extremely cautious when passing left hand drive lorries, as they will most likely have insufficient mirrors to cope with what is for them the wrong side of the road.
Imagine a no go zone alongside them and only enter if you have enough relative speed to pass quickly.
Do not loiter.
Likewise when we are on the continent we should take extra care and ensure our near side mirrors give us a complete view of the road.

 

[Steve L]

Nice one Dusty.
Bet it goes 10 Mph slower under the weight and wind resistance.
Just don't follow a Mod on his Lambretta at night cos it'll be like following Taunton illuminated carnival procession.
To be honest Surfer, the mirror law is very obscure (pardon the pun), It just states that any mirrors fitted must give adequate rearward vision. It's down to the individual police officer to decide if he thinks you can see behind sufficiently. So if you get stroppy with the law, the law will win!!!!
To be honest, I would rather see what my car & caravan are doing. As I've already said extension mirrors fitted to both sides of the car will also double as width markers not only for you going forward but also for oncoming traffic to negotiate past you in a tight spot.
I don't know if anyone here has travelled the South Moulton to Ilfracoombe road via Coombe Martin. This is a classic road where extra mirrors are a big bonus. Through Coombe Martin the main street is very narrow and frequently down to one lane with people having to pass parked vehicles and keep their eyes peeled for narrow gaps and building overhangs.

 

[Lutz]

To be honest Surfer, the mirror law is very obscure (pardon the pun), It just states that any mirrors fitted must give adequate rearward vision. It's down to the individual police officer to decide if he thinks you can see behind sufficiently. So if you get stroppy with the law, the law will win!!!!

That just isn't so. The law is not obscure and there are enough references in other sources which also carry the weight of the law to help any police officer judge what is "adequate" rearward vision.

 

[Steve L]

Ok Lutz.
How is it then that a custom car can have a mirror the size of a tennis ball and still be legal, or a scooter can have 50 mirrors as per Dusty's picture and still be legal. Then you get the caterpiller buses with mirrors the size of coffee tables.
Simples!
The basic law and construction & use MOT regs in the UK only make a righthand mirror mandatory on a car. There are other items such as the drivers side windscreen wiper must be fitted and working, number plate lights need only work at night ( but no manufacturer would go to the expense of fitting daylight sensors on mass production cars).
It's EU omologation regs that have definition of fields of view and the definition that, the mirrors "should not" show vehicles
As I've already suggested, it would be verry foolish to drive your £15'000 caravan behind your £20'000 car without being able to see safely what is going on down both sides of the outfit.
It's not until you get to LGV vehicles of 7'500Kgs and over that more than 1 mirror per side become mandatory.
That's why I stated that there is no real direction for the police and motoring to follow let alone understand.
How many times have you seen a VOSA inspector use an assistant with a marker stick to measure the rearward field of vision on a car, car & trailer or even a truck. They simply count the number of mirrors fitted and check for loose fittings.

 

[Beehpee]

Hi all, I regularly follow the discussions on here and occasionally join in, not often as being a caravanner of only 3 years I bow to most of the peoples superior knowledge about caravan issues, I have to say tho that sometimes I think that although things have without a shadow of a doubt got to be done right and got to be done safely and also legally there can sometimes be a tendency on here to be too precise and to over complicate things, I tow using a Vito van, it's a six seater dual liner which I use as it carries a massive amount of the gear I need without the need to pile it all in the caravan, I've tried 3 different brands of towing mirrors and all have made towing safely worse due to two things, firstly having two different views as in from the original mirror and the extension is a distraction and worse is the vibration on the extension makes it look as though the caravan is bouncing all over the road, I read a review of towing with the Vito in either practical caravan or the caravan club magazine that stated that with the huge mirrors that come as standard on the Vito it was debatable as to whether extensions were needed, I've decided I'm far safer without them and although I might not have total 100% vision down the complete side of my caravan I do have adequate vision to tow completely safely, maybe I don't comply with the law maybe I do but I've made the decision I have and am happy to tow my caravan the length and breadth of the uk and think I can do so perfectly safely, as someone stated on here the police have far better things to do than stop me to see what I can or cannot see behind me and if they did it would be a matter of debate as to whether my view was "adequate" let's not over complicate things and enjoy our pastime more, some things surely have got to be down to common sense as to whether or not it's safe, I've little doubt I will have people screaming for blood that it's either legal or not but I prefer to use a little of the common sense that 56 years of driving without so much as a parking ticket has given me.

Beehpee

 

[Dustydog]

As a motorcyclist of 42 years my biggest fear is "has he seen me " as I overtake.
Cutting all the rules and regulations etc why on earth would anyone not wish to see what's behind them ,particularly in the blind spot as shown in the Prof's post?

My current caravan is 7' 6" wide. Mly Smat mirrors fix onto the ome mirrors with thick rubber bands. Little or no vibration and excellent vision down the whole side and blind spots.
However if I upgrade to a 8' 2 1/2" wide unit these mirrors wont do. By my reckoning the Smats will have to be extended at least a further 4 inches each side. That puts a heck of a lot of strain on the ome mirrors and I wonder how far I will have to turn my head to look at them?
At the moment it's an eye glance but the more they stick out the more the more I'll have to twist my neck and take my eyes off the road in front.
Maybe we might go back to those big triangular mirrors that I used on the front wings??