This is scary!

[Surfer]

Read through these new regulations
In essence if your car is worth £35,000 and is parked outside a debtors
property, the bailiff can seize it and in order for it to be released
you need to pay into the courts the amount the debtor owes even if you
have never ever met the debtor and have no dealings or contact with the
debtor. I double checked on this and it is what the regulations imply.
It
need not necessary be a car but could be a caravan stored on a property
and the caravan is not owned by the debtor and the debtor has no
financial interest in the caravan. Seems even if you have never had debt in your life, you could be held responsible for another person's debt! I think we need to spread the word on this
because if our car was seized for someone else's debt, there is no ways
we would be able to pay into the court whatever that debtor owes which
means that we are stuck without a vehicle!

 

[Parksy]

Good Luck with that then

How much do you think my 1997 lwb Mitsubishi Pajero 2.8td is likely to be worth?
It's worth a lot to me as a comfortable solid ultra reliable towing vehicle but the market value is probably about £1200 so I'm safe

 

[Sproket]

Apparently they will not seize anything that has radioactive waste in or around it.....

Surfer.
Put some of these on your tug.
I think they will leave it alone when they see the stickers on your Jeep

 

[Surfer]

Good Luck with that then

How much do you think my 1997 lwb Mitsubishi Pajero 2.8td is likely to be worth?
It's worth a lot to me as a comfortable solid ultra reliable towing vehicle but the market value is probably about £1200 so I'm safe

True but if the debt is small you are inconvenienced. However they could have a go at placing a levy on a caravan or anything they consider of value. Imagine being on holiday and your vehicle is parked in a street and along they come and levy it. You will have an issue. The big issue here is that the new regulations are penalising the innocent!

 

[Parksy]

Having had a brief look at the bumf from your link before I began to lose the will to live, and from what I can make out any goods which are siezed have to be owned or co owned by the debtor.
Bit of a silly scare story methinks

 

[ProfJohnL]

Parksy beat me to the comment.

 

[Surfer]

No wonder we have stupid laws passed in this country as people cannot understand them. Section 6 makes it quite clear so it is nto a scare story.
Read section 6 again. Payments into court by third party:
underpayments49.—(1) Any underpayment to be determined by reference to
an independent valuation under paragraph 60(5) of Schedule 12 must be
undertaken by a qualified independent valuer.

(2) Any underpayment determined by the qualified independent valuer must
be paid within 14 clear days after provision of a copy of the valuation
to the applicant.

Basically you need to go to court to reclaim your goods and that costs
time and money, your time and money. The quick way is to pay the debt,
get back your goods and then claim. This costs time and money as you
have bailiffs and the courts that you are fighting with to get back your
goods even though there is no association between you and the
debtor. At the moment due to cut backs the courts are barely coping so
your request will be at the bottom of a pile and it coudl be weeks or
months befroe you see your goods again.

This was picked up by a leading authority who as a third party was
consulted and made contributions to the proposed new regulations. Their
contributions along with many others were ignored. This means that if
the vehicle is on finance, the finance company has to foot the bill and
then pursue it with the debtor. The same applies to a Motability
vehicle although bailiffs are not supposed to touch vehicles with £0.00
VED and marked as "Disabled".

It is a very complex bit of legislation due in April 2014 that is supposed to make things easier all around.

 

[evilpumpkin]

Maybe I'm being dense here, but surely if someone takes your vehicle or caravan without prior consent or a valid court order (and it's not a valid court order if you're not the debtor in question), then that is theft and a matter for the police.

Also any vehicle would have to be parked ON the debtor's property as in the majority of cases, the area outside is Public Highway and they can only sieze assets there if they know them to belong to the Debtor - otherwise bailiffs could just snatch any car, anywhere!

Finally, from reading this, it appears that they do not actually sieze vehicles in any case - they immobilise them. This being the case, I would presume that it would be possible to sort things out without having to resort to a court order. The act does actually say that the onus is on the Debtor to prove that goods to not belong to them, but that appears to be in a situation where they are claiming items belong to a spouse etc.

 

[Damian]

I have read the linkand nowhere does it mention just turning up and seizing anything other than that owned by the Debtor or Co-Debtor.
As for payments, it seems that if someone else, other than the debtor,wants to pay for the retrievalof whatever , they have to go thorough certain formalities.

Taking someone elses goods who has nothing to do with the debtor is theft, simple.

So, whoever advised you of the dire consequences of that bit of legislation is "Guilding the Lilly"

For the ordinary person there is nothing to worry about, but if you want to lose sleep over it, feel free to do so.

 

[Parksy]

Bailiffs are seizing goods that belong to a debtor, they can't just go around seizing goods at random.
If your caravan was stored at a place where the storage site owner was in financial difficulties bailiffs couldn't just seize anything.
They would have to have reason to believe that goods seized belonged to the debtor and would need to take reasonable care not to seize goods belonging to other people which would be common theft.
In any case the possibility of becoming involved in such a scenario if it existed are somewhat remote, so I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if I were you

P.S. Great minds think alike, (fools never differ) I was composing my comment as Daman posted

 

[JonnyG]

Read through these new regulations
In essence if your car is worth £35,000 and is parked outside a debtors
property, the bailiff can seize it and in order for it to be released
you need to pay into the courts the amount the debtor owes even if you
have never ever met the debtor and have no dealings or contact with the
debtor. I double checked on this and it is what the regulations imply.
It
need not necessary be a car but could be a caravan stored on a property
and the caravan is not owned by the debtor and the debtor has no
financial interest in the caravan. Seems even if you have never had debt in your life, you could be held responsible for another person's debt! I think we need to spread the word on this
because if our car was seized for someone else's debt, there is no ways
we would be able to pay into the court whatever that debtor owes which
means that we are stuck without a vehicle!

be nice if you could highlight that exact bit because as far as i know sherrifs have even greater powers than baliffs and they need to assertain who owns a vehicle... having said that if you were to jump into the vehicle regardless of whether you own it or not they can do nothing that would invoke a breech of peace........fundmentally there is no law in this land that over rides legal ownership unless legal ownership is indeed in dispute...it may appear at times balliffs seem to be a law to themselfs but they are accountable..

 

[Surfer]

Read through these new regulations
In essence if your car is worth £35,000 and is parked outside a debtors
property, the bailiff can seize it and in order for it to be released
you need to pay into the courts the amount the debtor owes even if you
have never ever met the debtor and have no dealings or contact with the
debtor. I double checked on this and it is what the regulations imply.
It
need not necessary be a car but could be a caravan stored on a property
and the caravan is not owned by the debtor and the debtor has no
financial interest in the caravan. Seems even if you have never had debt in your life, you could be held responsible for another person's debt! I think we need to spread the word on this
because if our car was seized for someone else's debt, there is no ways
we would be able to pay into the court whatever that debtor owes which
means that we are stuck without a vehicle!

be nice if you could highlight that exact bit because as far as i know sherrifs have even greater powers than baliffs and they need to assertain who owns a vehicle... having said that if you were to jump into the vehicle regardless of whether you own it or not they can do nothing that would invoke a breech of peace........fundmentally there is no law in this land that over rides legal ownership unless legal ownership is indeed in dispute...it may appear at times balliffs seem to be a law to themselfs but they are accountable..

We haven't had sheriffs in England and Wales for many years so not sure why you are asking? True they are accountable but in the meantime you are inconvenienced by a few rogue firms.
A bailiff with a warrant can seize any thing that they think may belong to the debtor. It is so refreshing to know that the some experts here know better than qualified law experts.

 

[Parksy]

be nice if you could highlight that exact bit because as far as i know sherrifs have even greater powers than baliffs and they need to assertain who owns a vehicle... having said that if you were to jump into the vehicle regardless of whether you own it or not they can do nothing that would invoke a breech of peace........fundmentally there is no law in this land that over rides legal ownership unless legal ownership is indeed in dispute...it may appear at times balliffs seem to be a law to themselfs but they are accountable..

We haven't had sheriffs in England and Wales for many years so not sure why you are asking? True they are accountable but in the meantime you are inconvenienced by a few rogue firms.
A bailiff with a warrant can seize any thing that they think may belong to the debtor. It is so refreshing to know that the some experts here know better than qualified law experts.

Are you a qualified law expert then Surfer?
You've obviously been hiding your light under a bushel!
I think that you will find that Sherrifs are still at work in England and Wales, have a look at ther website

 

[ProfJohnL]

If you read the documents and Govt supporting statements, you will see that the new act is designed to regulate the operation of bailiffs. This was necessary because some bailiffs had been using belligerent and harassment techniques to recover debts to the courts, some of their actions were subsequently proven to be illegal, So this clarifies and normalises the processes they can use.
Contrary to your understanding, there are Sheriffs operating in the UK, (There has been a recent series of programmes on BBC the sheriffs are coming) and they do have additional powers of seizure and access to premises to bailiffs
With regards the issue of seizure you raise, I cannot see any significant difference in the powers the revised act provides over what is currently in force.
We still do have Sheriffs in the England and Wales. The Queen still appoints Sheriffs to the Shire Counties. I was talking to the High Sheriff of Staffordshire not long ago. Technically a legal officer but these days more of a ceremonial role. But there are also Courts Sheriffs who are normally employed by private companies but their services are directed by the courts for the collection of debts
Both Bailiffs and Sheriffs must have reasonable cause to believe property they seize is owned by the debtor not just think it its owned by the debtor. They usually need to find some documentary evidence to support the seizure.
If there is any substantive doubt they have to make further inquiries until ownership is established beyond reasonable doubt.
As others have stated section 46 relates to any third party to the debt, such as a guarantor, it ensures that the debt is assumed to be cleared until the full sum has been settled. It also covers the situation where the value of goods held by the courts are in question.
As so often happens in English Law, the interpretation of an Act is only set when it is challenged in the courts, but as far as I can see the act does not implicate goods seized in error which logically once it is shown the goods do not belong to the debtor the court/Bailiff/Sheriff should discharge them.
As Parksy has pointed out, the issue of incorrectly seized goods has not been flagged up as a problem in the past, And I cannot see how or if this new act radically changes this situation.

 

[Raywood]

The seizure has to be goods the bailiff or sheriffs have good reason to believe are those of the debtor. A car parked outside a debtors house should not fall into that category unless there is some specific reason for them to suspect it belongs to the debtor. On a storage or caravan site the caravns would normally belong to individual owners and should not be seized although at a dealers where there is a mix of caravans owned by the dealers and those of customers there is room for errors to be made. As the Prof says the TV programme The Sheriffs are coming would have shown the true picture.
If your property is wrongly seized because the persons involved did not follow the correct procedure you would be entitled to costs and damages so they do have to be careful.

 

[Surfer]

be nice if you could highlight that exact bit because as far as i know sherrifs have even greater powers than baliffs and they need to assertain who owns a vehicle... having said that if you were to jump into the vehicle regardless of whether you own it or not they can do nothing that would invoke a breech of peace........fundmentally there is no law in this land that over rides legal ownership unless legal ownership is indeed in dispute...it may appear at times balliffs seem to be a law to themselfs but they are accountable..

We haven't had sheriffs in England and Wales for many years so not sure why you are asking? True they are accountable but in the meantime you are inconvenienced by a few rogue firms.
A bailiff with a warrant can seize any thing that they think may belong to the debtor. It is so refreshing to know that the some experts here know better than qualified law experts.

Are you a qualified law expert then Surfer?
You've obviously been hiding your light under a bushel!
I think that you will find that Sherrifs are still at work in England and Wales, have a look at ther website

Although I do have a law qualification as one of my subjects at University encompassed law, I never stated I was the expert, but I did make reference to an expert in bailiff law that provided the information. We do NOT have sheriffs operating in England any more and have not had any for a number of years. You are looking at the name of a company of where bailiffs are employed.

High Court Enforcement Officers are authorised by the
Lord
Chancellor to execute High Court writs. They can seize
and sell goods to cover the amount of a debt owed.[4]
They can also enforce and supervise the possession of property and the return
of goods.[4] They
replaced Sheriff's
Officers in April 2004. Legislation relating the High Court Enforcement
Officers includes the Sheriffs Act 1887, The
High Court Enforcement Officers Regulations 2004 and the Courts
Act 2003.

Unlike a County Court Bailiff, who is a civil servant,
an HCEO is an Agent of the High Court appointed by the Lord Chancellor. In
order to appoint and HCEO, a writ has to be obtained from the County Court, and
be presented to the High Court. The debt must be over £600 and it cannot be one
where judgement has been obtained for a debt owed under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

Click on this link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailiff
and for the legislation http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2004/400/contents/made

The BBC series focuses on a firm called "The Sheriff's Office" which
is a trading name of "Sheriffs High Court Enforcement Ltd" in
Croydon. The actual name of the Registered HCEO is a man named "Peter Watt".
All the other heavies seen in film, are agents of, or acting on behalf of Peter
Watt, who acts on behalf of the High Court and Claimant.

Hopefully this clarifies a few points. The OP was to warn about some draconian measures that are about to happen. You never know as you could be parked up on a CL when a bailiff comes to visit becasue the CL owner has many bad debts. The bailiff then clamps the caravan and car while you are out and about. Legally you cannot remove the clamp. Admitedly the chances of this happening are remote but it could happen.

 

[Parksy]

Having never defaulted on a loan or had any dealings whatsoever with bailiffs, sherrifs or any other debt collectors I bow to your superior knowledge Surfer

With respect, the chances of the scenario that you describe with goods owned by me, an innocent and unconnected party, being seized or otherwise immobilised by debt collectors are probably somewhat less then me winning the Euro Millions lottery outright so I'll try not to worry too much about either eventuality

 

[Surfer]

Having never defaulted on a loan or had any dealings whatsoever with bailiffs, sherrifs or any other debt collectors I bow to your superior knowledge Surfer

With respect, the chances of the scenario that you describe with goods owned by me, an innocent and unconnected party, being seized or otherwise immobilised by debt collectors are probably somewhat less then me winning the Euro Millions lottery outright so I'll try not to worry too much about either eventuality

I help out on a consumer forum and while my knowledge is limited on bailiffs, I am aware of what they can or can't do. The main point here I guess is the government pushing through legislation once again without thinking through the consequences properly.

 

[JonnyG]

Err yes surfer high coourt officers replaced sheriffs in 2004 with sherrif style powers which are indeed still above those of bailiffs the,name might have changed but sherrifs they are! but it seems you had to go away and dig deep to assertain it.!
and i still assertain that bailiffs cannot clamp or take given your scenario, and if ever that scenario did arise as i stated earlier they cannot cause a breach of peace, which means you get into the vehicle and refuse to move..Frankly your scenario is a none started anyway and is only likely to caurse concerns where none are needed everything being computerised ie V5 in a cars case and normally criss registered in a caravan case,the police,who you would assume would be present would have the mind to check this relevent facts for themselves, if indeed that scenario was ever to be enacted....Is this where i also say i know a man..

ps. please note your original post ie' you could be held responsible for somebody elses debt!!!!' my responce are based on this not being and never being possible bar partners and sibblings...outside of bussines tires and that law has not changed,but you should know that...

 

[Damian]

Quote " Admitedly the chances of this happening are remote but it could happen."

So, in essence, your initial posting is scaremongering at its best.
Being knocked over by a No 16 Bus is just as remote, but could happen.

 

[Surfer]

Quote " Admitedly the chances of this happening are remote but it could happen."

So, in essence, your initial posting is scaremongering at its best.
Being knocked over by a No 16 Bus is just as remote, but could happen.

If it is possible, how can it be scaremongering? You could have a snake while towing, but the chances are remote! Your problem if one day you are clamped for no reason.

 

[Gafferbill]

I for one am not scared....I am more than confident that a court of law is not going to seize anything I own

 

[Damian]

Quote "
If it is possible, how can it be scaremongering? You could have a snake while towing, but the chances are remote! Your problem if one day you are clamped for no reason."

But there are several flaws with your argument.

You are the only one saying it is possible, I firmly believe that it is not, and I certainlydo not envisage a sudden rash of innocent folks cars and vans being clamped.
Secondly,as far as my posting about a bus, I know full well that I will never be knocked over by a No 16 Bus, simply because we dont have any No 16 buses.

As for snaking, that is a real possibility, and very well known for all kinds of documented reasons, but seizing innocent peoples posessions is so far removed from reality to be a non starter.