To cancel purchase or not???

[Dustydog]

I'd appreciate The Prof's and Ray W plus others thoughts please. :cheer:
My Daughter in law's parents ordered a new Swift Sprite in the summer show.
Their circumstances have changed due another baby on the horizon thanks to my son
Reading the CRA 2015 I think they can cancel as the caravan will not be delivered until end of March 2018 but I am not sure. They will speak to their solicitor but meanwhile my ears are open to your views please B)

 

[otherclive]

I think talking to the solicitor with the contract documents is by far the best approach. When my ex son in laws parents ordered a new Lexus to replace their old one they got cold feet. Going back to the dealer they explained their situation and the dealer just asked for the retention of their original deposit which was around £500. Costly but not a disaster. But talk to the solicitor first.

 

[ProfJohnL]

It is difficult to answer this one because I don'e believe we have enough information.

I believe the starting point should be the terms and conditions set out when the caravan was ordered. There may be specific clauses concerning cancellation.

I presume it was a standard model with no bespoke modifications, and as such it would be as described in the manufacturers catalogue. Judging by the dates I believe it's unlikely the caravan would have even been started yet, so no capitol investment should be involved, however the dealer will have carried out some administration and as such may have incurred some costs.

Start with the terms and conditions, which may have opt-out provisions, and at least present the case to the dealer who may (contrary to some ideas) have a human heart.

 

[Icaru5]

Personally, my first approach would be to stay well clear of solicitors and avoid reading any terms and conditions, but approach the dealer, in person, in a very friendly and calm manner, and gently break the news to them with a sincere apology. You may also want to consider changing the “official” reason that you give, making it sound more like a very unfortunate situation you have found yourself in through no fault of your own or any of those dearest to you that means there’s no way you would be able to take delivery of your new caravan. Yes, a sob story if you like ...

I think it’s very important to remember that irrespective of the law, or any contract, the dealer can fulfill your request here without any problem whatsoever. Spring is only just around the corner and new buyers will soon be out in their droves, and many dealers will lose sales because they can’t deliver quick enough. The only thing you need to do is make him like you. He may already like you, in which case you’ve no work to do. Arriving stone faced, waving your contract at him, and telling him that you’ve spoken to your solicitor about this will without doubt have the absolute opposite effect. It certainly would with me.

I once had a client cancel a circa £200K project by sending me a rather coldly worded email, stating that the reason for the cancellation was not something he wished to divulge, and that he expected his £20K deposit to be returned into his account within the next few days. I refused, it went legal, and on the strength of the T’s & C’s, his deposit was never returned. If he’d telephoned me to discuss pleasantly, with an explanation and an apology, even if it wasn’t the truth, I would have returned his deposit that same day.

The key to successful business and negotiation is the building of relationships, using people skills and confidence, and certainly not through an arrogant, aggressive “I know my rights ....” approach. I fully understand that people who are not used to negotiating confidently and dealing with such issues could easily find it very difficult and stressfull to conduct themselves in such a calm and friendly way and remain pragmatic throughout the discussions, simply because at the forefront of their mind is the fact that their preferred outcome is of such importance to them, and if the signs are there that they are struggling to steer things in their direction, they become emotionally charged. With all due respect, if your in-laws aren’t used to dealing with such matters confidently, then may I suggest that they take someone along with them who is.

If after a couple of whole-hearted, amicable, face to face discussions, your in-laws don’t achieve their desired outcome, then, and only then would I look to seek advice or start to play hard.

Hope this helps !

Ic.

 

[otherclive]

Personally, my first approach would be to stay well clear of solicitors and avoid reading any terms and conditions, but approach the dealer, in person, in a very friendly and calm manner, and gently break the news to them with a sincere apology. You may also want to consider changing the “official” reason that you give, making it sound more like a very unfortunate situation you have found yourself in through no fault of your own or any of those dearest to you that means there’s no way you would be able to take delivery of your new caravan. Yes, a sob story if you like ...

I think it’s very important to remember that irrespective of the law, or any contract, the dealer can fulfill your request here without any problem whatsoever. Spring is only just around the corner and new buyers will soon be out in their droves, and many dealers will lose sales because they can’t deliver quick enough. The only thing you need to do is make him like you. He may already like you, in which case you’ve no work to do. Arriving stone faced, waving your contract at him, and telling him that you’ve spoken to your solicitor about this will without doubt have the absolute opposite effect. It certainly would with me.

I once had a client cancel a circa £200K project by sending me a rather coldly worded email, stating that the reason for the cancellation was not something he wished to divulge, and that he expected his £20K deposit to be returned into his account within the next few days. I refused, it went legal, and on the strength of the T’s & C’s, his deposit was never returned. If he’d telephoned me to discuss pleasantly, with an explanation and an apology, even if it wasn’t the truth, I would have returned his deposit that same day.

The key to successful business and negotiation is the building of relationships, using people skills and confidence, and certainly not through an arrogant, aggressive “I know my rights ....” approach. I fully understand that people who are not used to negotiating confidently and dealing with such issues could easily find it very difficult to and stressfull to conduct themselves in such a calm and friendly way and remain pragmatic throughout the discussions, simply because at the forefront of their mind is the fact that their preferred outcome is of such importance to them, and if the signs are there that they are struggling to steer things in their direction, they become emotionally charged. With all due respect, if your in-laws aren’t used to dealing with such matters confidently, then may I suggest that they take someone along with them who is.

If after a couple of whole-hearted, amicable, face to face discussions, your in-laws don’t achieve their desired outcome, then, and only then would I look to seek advice or start to play hard.

Hope this helps !

Ic.

You should offer your services to the Department for Exiting the EU-

 

[ProfJohnL]

I do not agree with Icarus's suggestion in two particular ways.

Firstly do read the T&Cs of your contract. It is a contract and becasue it a retail sale to an end user it is the document on which any legal proceedings will be based if it needs to go that far. It should detail the means by which the order can be cancelled. Having agreed to the purchase you have also agreed to terms and conditions laid out.

The bottom line is if you don't like the T&C's you should either not have signed the document or negotiated changes to the document before you signed it.

It is irresponsible to suggest ignoring them.

And secondly do not make up untrue stories, becasue if the dealer becomes suspicious and decides to take the legal route, any deceit will come back to bite you.

There is no need to lie, there has been a material change in customer's circumstances and as yet only a minimal amount of cost has been incurred.

I totally agree with Icarus on the value of having a good relationship between the parties to a contract, but trying to change a contract after it has been signed can destroy trust and respect

I would venture to suggest there are some important differences between a Retail Contract and a Commercial Contract. Retail Contracts have by law to conform to the Consumer Rights Act, and any retail contract that does not may judged unfair and rendered invalid.

The same protections are not afforded to commercial contracts - mores the pity, becasue it would be great if dealers could automatically seek compensation from suppliers that proffer faulty or substandard goods. - but that's for another forum topic not this one.

There is nothing wrong with knowing your rights, and based on a cool understanding of them what you might be entitled to, But equally there is nothing wrong with asking for a full refund, but don't expect it unless the T&C's say you should.

 

[Icaru5]

I do not agree with Icarus's suggestion in two particular ways.

Firstly do read the T&Cs of your contract. It is a contract and becasue it a retail sale to an end user it is the document on which any legal proceedings will be based if it needs to go that far. It should detail the means by which the order can be cancelled. Having agreed to the purchase you have also agreed to terms and conditions laid out.

The bottom line is if you don't like the T&C's you should either not have signed the document or negotiated changes to the document before you signed it.

It is irresponsible to suggest ignoring them.

And secondly do not make up untrue stories, becasue if the dealer becomes suspicious and decides to take the legal route, any deceit will come back to bite you.

There is no need to lie, there has been a material change in customer's circumstances and as yet only a minimal amount of cost has been incurred.

I totally agree with Icarus on the value of having a good relationship between the parties to a contract, but trying to change a contract after it has been signed can destroy trust and respect

I would venture to suggest there are some important differences between a Retail Contract and a Commercial Contract. Retail Contracts have by law to conform to the Consumer Rights Act, and any retail contract that does not may judged unfair and rendered invalid.

The same protections are not afforded to commercial contracts - mores the pity, becasue it would be great if dealers could automatically seek compensation from suppliers that proffer faulty or substandard goods. - but that's for another forum topic not this one.

There is nothing wrong with knowing your rights, and based on a cool understanding of them what you might be entitled to, But equally there is nothing wrong with asking for a full refund, but don't expect it unless the T&C's say you should.

Hello Prof,

I don’t read the terms and conditions when I buy an iPad from a high street retailer, a new car from a dealer, or a new caravan. They are what they are and have been prepared for the retailer by their legal department or advisor, and I would be extremely surprised if a retailer will allow you to cross out any sections and have him initial them so as to secure the sale.

If I have decided which product to buy, and it is from a reputable retailer, I will buy it without reading all of the small print. I don’t think I am alone here, and appreciate that you would read through the contract thoroughly Prof. I’d be interested to learn though whether or not you would read the full page of T’s & C’s if you were to buy a kettle from an electrical retailer ...

I would expect one section of the T’s & C’s of your contract to read somewhere along the lines of “The contract cannot be cancelled by either party unless agreed beforehand by both parties, in writing”, which I’m sure wouldn’t have been the case. Again, that’s why you’re trying to appeal to their good nature, and not by reciting terms and conditions which could only possibly work against you !

With regards to untrue stories, a small tale of woe will not have any detrimental effect whatsoever, but could very well extend the sympathy shown by the dealer.

The terms and conditions are there to protect the dealer in case of a disagreement. There hasn’t been any disagreement !

From my experience, I would expect a full refund, or at the very worst case the retention of a small administration fee, but only if you’re nice, and stay away from mentioning terms and conditions, which again can only possibly work against you !!!!

Just be nice, and I’m sure you’ll be fine.

 

[Dustydog]

Many thanks to all the valuable replies received so far.
Uberrimae Fides , Utmost Good Faith, was my old working motto.
Tell no lies will always stand you in good stead.
I have been unable to condense the T&Cs so my apologies for copying them below. All names have been deleted. Looking at other Dealers T&cs they are very similar.

I believe the worst case scenario may be that in the event of cancellation the Seller May retain up to a maximum £2000 deposit. There is a possible argument that the seller may not suffer more than a small additional cost if they sell the caravan to someone else reasonably quickly.
So guys what do youbthink now you have read the actual T&Cs.
Many thanks DD

Terms and Conditions
In these terms and conditions of sale the words “Seller” means $$$$$$€€€€€€€Limited, “Buyer” means the purchaser and “Goods” means the motorhome, caravan or accessories whether new or used that you agree to buy from the Seller.

Whenever Goods are supplied by the Seller but are ordered direct from the manufacturer by choosing from a manufacturer’s list or catalogue then the Seller shall make all reasonable efforts to obtain for the Buyer the benefit of any warranty or guarantee given by the manufacturer in respect of these goods.
Whenever goods are ordered by the Buyer, the Seller will order direct from the manufacturer’s list or catalogue with an estimated date then the Seller will use all reasonable endeavours to ensure that the collection date is met. However, collection dates are based on the manufacturer’s estimate only and cannot be guaranteed until the caravan is physically in stock. If the Seller is unable to supply the Goods within two Months of the estimated delivery date, then the Buyer is entitled to a refund of any/all monies paid. No further claim for the loss of use can be made against the Seller.
In respect of the new or pre-owned Goods that are physically in stock then the Seller will use all reasonable endeavours to ensure that the collection date is met. If the goods are not supplied within eight weeks of the collection date then the Buyer is perfectly free to cancel the order and any/all monies paid will be refunded in full.
Although given in good faith collection times for the supply of Goods specified by the Seller are intended as estimates only and are not therefore to be treated of the essence of the contract or binding on the Seller.
In the event of the manufacturer ceasing to make Goods of the exact type ordered by the Buyer then the Seller will advise the Buyer immediately and the Buyer will be entitled to the return of any/all monies paid. No further claim for the loss of use can be made against the Seller.
When the Seller agrees to allow part of the purchase price to be paid by the Buyer delivering used Goods in part exchange it as agreed that:
The Goods shall be delivered to the Seller in the same condition as described at the time of the order, as stated on the order form. The Goods shall be in the road worthy condition and subject only to fair wear and tear ; and
Such part exchange allowance shall be binding on the Seller only after final inspection of the used Goods by the Seller’s authorised representative who shall confirm the allowance in writing and
That either:
1)The Goods are the Buyer’s property and are not subject to any finance or hire purchase.
2)If the Goods are subject to a finance or hire purchase agreement the consent of the finance company or hirer must be obtained to the part exchange and the sum allowed in part exchange shall be reduced by the amount of monies still owing to the finance or hire company and

3)The Goods shall be supplied by the Buyer as originally supplied by the manufacturer, all keys, mattresses, televisions and cushions shall be included unless otherwise stated by the Buyer.

7) In event of the Seller agreeing to take the Buyer’s Goods in part exchange the Seller may sell or otherwise dispose of these Goods immediately. If after taking Goods the Buyer chooses to cancel the agreement then the Seller will either choose to return the Goods to the Buyer in the same condition as they were received or repay in full the allowance price for the good as detailed on the sales order.

8) If the Buyer Orders Goods from the Seller and the order is not placed on one of our trade premises, the Buyer may cancel within 14 days of collection of the Goods and any/all monies will be returned to the Buyer (Refer to clause 9). Orders placed by the Seller direct to the manufacturer will not be cancelled by the Seller and the Buyer forfeits the opportunity to buy the Goods at the price originally agreed.

9) If the Buyer returned the Goods supplied by the Seller within 14 days, the Seller will refund the Buyer in full within 14 days of return of the Goods, less any damage to the vehicle (except normal wear and tear) The Seller will be entitled to a usage fee for the use of the Goods in line with normal rental costs of a similar vehicle on a commercial term basis. This fee will be deduced by the Seller before any monies are received by the Buyer.

10) If the Seller changes the terms of the order, then the Buyer is entitled to a full refund.

11) If the Buyer refuses to take delivery of the Goods to be suppled in accordance with this agreement then the Seller should be entitled to treat this agreement as being brought to an end by the Buyer and In that event, the Buyers deposit (A Maximum of £2,000) shall be forfeited to the Seller, except in clause 10.

12) It is the Buyer’s responsibility to ensure that the vehicle used for towing legally fits the requirements for the caravan purchased. Whilst the Seller can offer advice on the suitability of any tow vehicle, it cannot be held responsible for the vehicle used for towing’s unsuitability and cannot form part of the contract with the Seller. The buyer must seek independent advice as to their vehicle’s suitability for the caravan purchased.

13) The Seller shall remain the sole and absolute owner of the Goods supplied to the buyer until such time that the purchase price is paid in fill and the Seller has received cleared funds.

14) When the Seller provides the Buyer with information about the used for the Goods are designed and have been tested for the Buyer shall use the Goods accordingly.

15) As a consumer, you have certain statutory rights that may be relied upon in the event that the Goods you are sold are defective, or in the event that the services supplied are not carried out with reasonable care and skill. Conditions 1 to 14 do not affect your statutory rights.

16) Swift 3 Years Free Servicing Offer is not transferable to another vehicle nor to another customer.

Ownership of Goods is not transferred until full payment is received

 

[Grey13]

As a business owner and having had years of experience with terms and conditions etc my comment is that i would draw the best bits from the above suggestions then talk to the dealer.

• In the first instance simply read the T/C to prepare yourself for a discussion with the dealer so that you know where he is coming from.
• Consulting a solicitor at this stage will be a waste of money and if the dealer gets wind, it may well harden his position.
• Next remember that the dealer does not make the van so will have placed an order on Swift therefore will be bound by their terms and conditions. That is important when chatting to them because their hands will be tied somewhat.
• Next I would lay my cards on the table with the dealer and ask their opinion and help if at all possible.
• Make sure you are dealing with the business owner, not a salesman. Clearly a salesman will have a different interest to the owner, not wanting to lose his sale.
• In many of my past company T/C we have stipulated that "goods off the shelf or otherwise standard are subject to one set of T/C but special orders another. Keep this in mind when dealing with them.
• After making your position clear, gauge their response. If he says he cannot cancel because he has placed the order on Swift, kindly ask him if he could do you a big favour and just talk to Swift about cancelling or some compromise.
• I agree with the comment, do not go quoting terms and conditions, it may well rub him up the wrong way, approach it from a human person to person way rather than suggesting some sort of "legal" way. If T/C comes up let him be the one to raise them.
• Having been on the business side of this situation numerous times in the past, if faced by a cocky pushy or aggressive person, my response would be to be the least helpful, on the other hand if dealing with a kind pleasant person I would always be as helpful as possible.
• At all costs be open and honest, it will solicit his best attitude &response/help.

 

[Grey13]

Ok one comment: reading those T/C although not made absolutely clear these 2 clause are statutory "distance selling" cancellation buying clauses and unless you bought the van over the phone or on internet will not apply to this deal. I presume you signed the T/C at their premises?
Well they do clearly state; and the order is not placed on one of our trade premises

If the Buyer Orders Goods from the Seller and the order is not placed on one of our trade premises, the Buyer may cancel within 14 days of collection of the Goods and any/all monies will be returned to the Buyer (Refer to clause 9). Orders placed by the Seller direct to the manufacturer will not be cancelled by the Seller and the Buyer forfeits the opportunity to buy the Goods at the price originally agreed.

9) If the Buyer returned the Goods supplied by the Seller within 14 days, the Seller will refund the Buyer in full within 14 days of return of the Goods, less any damage to the vehicle (except normal wear and tear) The Seller will be entitled to a usage fee for the use of the Goods in line with normal rental costs of a similar vehicle on a commercial term basis. This fee will be deduced by the Seller before any monies are received by the Buyer.

 

[Grey13]

My next comment is that in compliance with this clause in reality you could simply refuse to take delivery of the van but will lose any deposit (or perhaps £2000) by way of penalty. How much deposit did you pay? Whatever i personally would rather still follow in broad terms my original suggestions and first try the kind gently way and chat to the dealer, you may be surprised, anything could happen from walking away Scot free to some mutually agreeable compromise. Remember you may need their help again!

If the Buyer refuses to take delivery of the Goods to be suppled in accordance with this agreement then the Seller should be entitled to treat this agreement as being brought to an end by the Buyer and In that event, the Buyers deposit (A Maximum of £2,000) shall be forfeited to the Seller, except in clause 10.

 

[Icaru5]

As a business owner and having had years of experience with terms and conditions etc my comment is that i would draw the best bits from the above suggestions then talk to the dealer.

• In the first instance simply read the T/C to prepare yourself for a discussion with the dealer so that you know where he is coming from.
• Consulting a solicitor at this stage will be a waste of money and if the dealer gets wind, it may well harden his position.
• Next remember that the dealer does not make the van so will have placed an order on Swift therefore will be bound by their terms and conditions. That is important when chatting to them because their hands will be tied somewhat.
• Next I would lay my cards on the table with the dealer and ask their opinion and help if at all possible.
• Make sure you are dealing with the business owner, not a salesman. Clearly a salesman will have a different interest to the owner, not wanting to lose his sale.
• In many of my past company T/C we have stipulated that "goods off the shelf or otherwise standard are subject to one set of T/C but special orders another. Keep this in mind when dealing with them.
• After making your position clear, gauge their response. If he says he cannot cancel because he has placed the order on Swift, kindly ask him if he could do you a big favour and just talk to Swift about cancelling or some compromise.
• I agree with the comment, do not go quoting terms and conditions, it may well rub him up the wrong way, approach it from a human person to person way rather than suggesting some sort of "legal" way. If T/C comes up let him be the one to raise them.
• Having been on the business side of this situation numerous times in the past, if faced by a cocky pushy or aggressive person, my response would be to be the least helpful, on the other hand if dealing with a kind pleasant person I would always be as helpful as possible.
• At all costs be open and honest, it will solicit his best attitude &response/help.

I really wouldn’t imagine that the dealer will cancel the order with Swift, unless it’s a really special build. If it was, I’m sure Dusty would have mentioned this. Again, spring is only just around the corner, and I’m sure they will have no problem in selling a new, popular sprite, available for (almost) immediate delivery and for probably more than the “show price” which would have been the case with the original order.

Asking the dealer to ask for a favour from swift, and especially suggesting any kind of “compromise” is capitulating immediately to the fact that you are expecting at least some kind of financial loss before you even start !

Why not put the T’s & C’s back in the folder, and go and have a nice chat with them over a coffee

 

[Raywood]

In my work I did need to get a senior solicitors advice, which amongst other things included advice on deposits. Basically what he said was that the deposit is evidence of good faith by the buyer but should be a sum that the buyer can afford to lose in the event of the buyer having to cancel. Most deposits are not returnable but this is subject to the terms of the contract between the parties.
The essence of the advice though was simply if the buyer cancels the contract the buyer loses the deposit. The contract terms may vary this but any severs terms would almost certainly be unenforceable.
At worst the dealer could only pursue the buyer for the losses incurred resulting from the cancelation rather than the purchase cost itself.
In this case the OP needs to read the contract and see what it says.
I am not clear why there is a reason to cancel here, is it with the expense of the baby they will find the cost difficult or that the caravan is unsuitable for the larger family and they need something different? If the latter and they still want a new caravan I would speak to the dealer and see if they can amend the order. If it is simply the cost of the new caravan then I think this change in circumstances is one of the risks you take when ordering something to be supplied in the future.

 

[Icaru5]

In my work I did need to get a senior solicitors advice, which amongst other things included advice on deposits. Basically what he said was that the deposit is evidence of good faith by the buyer but should be a sum that the buyer can afford to lose in the event of the buyer having to cancel. Most deposits are not returnable but this is subject to the terms of the contract between the parties.
The essence of the advice though was simply if the buyer cancels the contract the buyer loses the deposit. The contract terms may vary this but any severs terms would almost certainly be unenforceable.
At worst the dealer could only pursue the buyer for the losses incurred resulting from the cancelation rather than the purchase cost itself.
In this case the OP needs to read the contract and see what it says.
I am not clear why there is a reason to cancel here, is it with the expense of the baby they will find the cost difficult or that the caravan is unsuitable for the larger family and they need something different? If the latter and they still want a new caravan I would speak to the dealer and see if they can amend the order. If it is simply the cost of the new caravan then I think this change in circumstances is one of the risks you take when ordering something to be supplied in the future.

Ray makes a very good point here about the reason for cancellation. Clearly a change in personal circumstances are the reason, and the in-laws want out. As Ray mentions, with all due respect, it’s not exactly a reason which would dictate that going ahead with the purchase would be totally out of the question, and encourage the most sympathetic response from the dealer, hence my suggestion of perhaps offering a different story ! - After all, the general reason for cancellation remains the same, i.e. a change in personal circumstances, whatever that may be, but I just think that some reasons would prompt a different response from others ...

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Icarus,

I think I see your position on this, but I cannot agree with it.

I personally am not happy with the concept of telling lies, especially to gain any form of pecuniary advantage from an innocent person or business, A lie regardless of how small is still a lie, and if it's is exposed then it devalues your standing in the eyes of any one whom becomes aware of it.

In this instance a contract with the seller was agreed, and based on that contract the seller will in good faith have put in motion the process of ordering the item from their supplier or manufacture. They have undertaken some work and incurred some costs to execute the contract. It is the purchaser that has for what ever reason changed their mind. so the seller is has acted entirely honourably and innocently, it is the purchaser that is seeking to exit the contract.

The purchasers reasons may be perfectly genuine, but never the less it is not a matter that is specifically listed in the T&C's that allows the contract to be broken without consequences.

You are correct, I don't read all the terms and conditions every time I go to a store and purchase a kettle or other household appliance, partly becasue I know my rights under the CRA, and in many cases I may well have seen the stores T&C's from previous purchases, and whilst that has usually served me well it is wise to periodically review store T&Cs as they can change as time goes by. Generally the monetary value of a kettle is unlikely to break the bank if problems arise that can't be resolved either amicably or through the legal processes.

Buying a new caravan or a car is not such small beer and often involves a value representing a large proportion or even exceeding a persons annual income, as such most people will not wish to casually enter such a contract without careful consideration, becasue if it does go wrong in any way the financial consequences will be much more significant.

Even though the Consumer Rights Act (CRA) does not differentiate on the value of goods, there are practical differences in the complexity of contracts between buying a kettle and a caravan. You rarely have to pre-order a kettle, they are normally on the shelf, New caravans are usually Pre-Order and often contracted before they are even built! This is not quite the same as built to order.

Such differences complicate the contractual arrangements, and the devil is in the detail.

A Contract to purchase is a mutually agreed and contains a set of T&C's that will govern how that contract is executed by all parties. the time to negotiate changes to T&C's id before the contract is formed either by verbal agreement or by signed confirmation. Don't forget that a dealer is not obliged to sell any goods, and a potential customer is not obliged to purchase until the contract is agreed, so either party could withdraw before the contact is agreed. Do not sign a contract where you do not agree with ALL the T&C's.

In practice most business will have taken legal advice about what T&C's to have in their contracts, so it is very unlikely a retail customer would be successful in getting them changed in any way, but there is no harm in asking, and provided any change is agreed by all parties in writing it would form a revised set of T&C's for that contract.

Do not expect to be able to change T&C's after the contract is enacted, unless circumstances arise that are not covered by the contract or that make the contact are legally unfair.

Again there is nothing to stop a customer asking for a special consideration beyond the scope of the contract, and if there is good will sometimes a business may relent, but it is not guaranteed, and no one should rely on an ex gratia settlement. Don't destroy good will by making inaccurate claims or statements, not even small ones.

 

[Hutch]

To put a slightly different light on this and not a very pleasant one for DustyD's inlaws, whe I part exchanged one on my caravans for a new one, the dealer told me that the showroom model was £1000 cheaper than display price as the original buyer had to pull out of the sale, and had lost his deposit, which was discounted to myself. Although good for me, not good for the original buyer.

 

[Icaru5]

Hello Icarus,

I think I see your position on this, but I cannot agree with it.

I personally am not happy with the concept of telling lies, especially to gain any form of pecuniary advantage from an innocent person or business, A lie regardless of how small is still a lie, and if it's is exposed then it devalues your standing in the eyes of any one whom becomes aware of it.

In this instance a contract with the seller was agreed, and based on that contract the seller will in good faith have put in motion the process of ordering the item from their supplier or manufacture. They have undertaken some work and incurred some costs to execute the contract. It is the purchaser that has for what ever reason changed their mind. so the seller is has acted entirely honourably and innocently, it is the purchaser that is seeking to exit the contract.

The purchasers reasons may be perfectly genuine, but never the less it is not a matter that is specifically listed in the T&C's that allows the contract to be broken without consequences.

You are correct, I don't read all the terms and conditions every time I go to a store and purchase a kettle or other household appliance, partly becasue I know my rights under the CRA, and in many cases I may well have seen the stores T&C's from previous purchases, and whilst that has usually served me well it is wise to periodically review store T&Cs as they can change as time goes by. Generally the monetary value of a kettle is unlikely to break the bank if problems arise that can't be resolved either amicably or through the legal processes.

Buying a new caravan or a car is not such small beer and often involves a value representing a large proportion or even exceeding a persons annual income, as such most people will not wish to casually enter such a contract without careful consideration, becasue if it does go wrong in any way the financial consequences will be much more significant.

Even though the Consumer Rights Act (CRA) does not differentiate on the value of goods, there are practical differences in the complexity of contracts between buying a kettle and a caravan. You rarely have to pre-order a kettle, they are normally on the shelf, New caravans are usually Pre-Order and often contracted before they are even built! This is not quite the same as built to order.

Such differences complicate the contractual arrangements, and the devil is in the detail.

A Contract to purchase is a mutually agreed and contains a set of T&C's that will govern how that contract is executed by all parties. the time to negotiate changes to T&C's id before the contract is formed either by verbal agreement or by signed confirmation. Don't forget that a dealer is not obliged to sell any goods, and a potential customer is not obliged to purchase until the contract is agreed, so either party could withdraw before the contact is agreed. Do not sign a contract where you do not agree with ALL the T&C's.

In practice most business will have taken legal advice about what T&C's to have in their contracts, so it is very unlikely a retail customer would be successful in getting them changed in any way, but there is no harm in asking, and provided any change is agreed by all parties in writing it would form a revised set of T&C's for that contract.

Do not expect to be able to change T&C's after the contract is enacted, unless circumstances arise that are not covered by the contract or that make the contact are legally unfair.

Again there is nothing to stop a customer asking for a special consideration beyond the scope of the contract, and if there is good will sometimes a business may relent, but it is not guaranteed, and no one should rely on an ex gratia settlement. Don't destroy good will by making inaccurate claims or statements, not even small ones.

Hello again Prof,

Thanks for your response, but I really wouldn’t see the dealer as the victim here ...

In terms of litte white lies, lets take for example a situation whereby a customer rejects a new van, due to a number of “minor” issues. The dealer properly fixes whatever issues there may be, and then has it for sale on the forecourt as a new van, I’m sure that most would agree that the chance of them affixing a large “REJECT” sign next to the price tag in the front window and explaining to a potential buyer that the van was in such a poor condition that it was rejected by the original purchaser would be almost zero, but the explanation for the van being immediately available would more likely be along the lines of an additional van ordered for stock, or a cancelled order etc.

Another example is when we bought my wife’s car a couple of years ago, which was 6 months old, but was registered to the dealership. The salesman explained that it was an “Ex-Demo”. Without challenging him, as there would be no merit in doing so, I interpreted this as “Ex-Courtesy car”, yet after considerable negotiation, still continued with the purchase. In the same way, I’m sure that when vehicles suffer minor bumps and scrapes during transport to the dealership, the explanation given to the customer when he is informed of the delayed delivery differs significantly from the truth.

Anyway, we digress, but my point is that such little white lies are commonplace in all sectors, and whatever reason the OP gives for their decision to cancel would remain the same in the eyes of the law, i.e. a change in personal circumstance, but again my suggestion was that giving a reason (read little white lie) which prompts a more sympathetic response from the dealer may well help to avoid any discussions relating to T’s & C’s or legal matters.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Prof,

Thanks for your response, but I really wouldn’t see the dealer as the victim here ...

I am not accusing this dealer of any wrongdoing, but I have had my doubts about how some dealers have manged themselves at times in the past, and I have no doubt there will be some now and in the future who will try to bend the rules at times, but that does not change the legal fact that in this instance it is no action of the dealer that has precipitated the customers desire to exit the contract - the dealer is the victim here in law.

This case would be judged on the basis of facts pertaining to this contract not others that may have occurred previously.

I think your approach to this particular thread is morally and legally wrong.

I have no desire to pursue this line of discussion any further, It is up to readers to decide their own minds about the rights and wrongs, and whose approach to accept.

 

[Dustydog]

Hello again Prof,

Thanks for your response, but I really wouldn’t see the dealer as the victim here ...

I am not accusing this dealer of any wrongdoing, but I have had my doubts about how some dealers have manged themselves at times in the past, and I have no doubt there will be some now and in the future who will try to bend the rules at times, but that does not change the legal fact that in this instance it is no action of the dealer that has precipitated the customers desire to exit the contract - the dealer is the victim here in law.

This case would be judged on the basis of facts pertaining to this contract not others that may have occurred previously.

I think your approach to this particular thread is morally and legally wrong.

I have no desire to pursue this line of discussion any further, It is up to readers to decide their own minds about the rights and wrongs, and whose approach to accept.

Prof,
Your last two posts most eloquently confirm my own views. :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:
I mentioned Uberrimae Fides at the start of this thread.
I too both Professionally and as , I hope a half decent dog, will not tolerate any lies no matter how small , white or whatever.
A word of caution to everyone, lying is a crime if it is used to gain financially something you are not legally entitled to. The T&Cs here are the governing rule book for resolution of the problem and of course when reviewed with the CRA 2015 in mind.
I accept the views of adopting a sensible reasonable approach , not all guns blazing, but the truth is the truth and must be adhered to.
I was trying to weed out the best way forward contractually and keeping a close eye on the CRA.
I do appreciate ALL the submissions which like any good Forum do give a balanced view even if they are at variance . Thanks to everyone. More ideas welcome

 

[Icaru5]

I too am out on this one as obviously some are finding my approach hard to swallow.

The op hasn’t even approached the dealer to discuss, but the first reply advised speaking to a solicitor, and references to “The case” only went on from there. A “case” hasn’t even been established, and my advice was, as I successfully did in this situation, to informally and amicably approach the dealer to prevent such an occurrence, whilst other seem to be encouraging it :S

 

[otherclive]

I too am out on this one as obviously some are finding my approach hard to swallow.

The op hasn’t even approached the dealer to discuss, but the first reply advised speaking to a solicitor, and references to “The case” only went on from there. A “case” hasn’t even been established, and my advice was, as I successfully did in this situation, to informally and amicably approach the dealer to prevent such an occurrence, whilst other seem to be encouraging it :S

I think that you are being overly sensitive. As the first one to reply I did agree that seeing the solicitor with a copy of the contract would be a good first step. But that didn’t imply anything other. It’s always a good approach to understand where you actually stand legally before taking further action. Just because I supported the OP s approach does mean that the subsequent step would then be to approach the dealer and discuss what the options would be to seek an amicable resolution. But knowing the worse case position must be an advantage.

 

[Dustydog]

I too am out on this one as obviously some are finding my approach hard to swallow.

The op hasn’t even approached the dealer to discuss, but the first reply advised speaking to a solicitor, and references to “The case” only went on from there. A “case” hasn’t even been established, and my advice was, as I successfully did in this situation, to informally and amicably approach the dealer to prevent such an occurrence, whilst other seem to be encouraging it :S

I think that you are being overly sensitive. As the first one to reply I did agree that seeing the solicitor with a copy of the contract would be a good first step. But that didn’t imply anything other. It’s always a good approach to understand where you actually stand legally before taking further action. Just because I supported the OP s approach doesn’t mean that the subsequent step would then be to approach the dealer and discuss what the options would be to seek an amicable resolution. But knowing the worse case position must be an advantage.

In the immortal words of Dale Carnegie accept the worst and it will only get better.
Icaru,
We all appreciate your input and all views in my view must be considered but they are not all the correct final solution. I like to look outside the box but here is a case involving substantial sums of money where the potential interface between the contractual position and Statute Law , ie CRA need to carefully examined. Hence the reference I guess to a solicitor.
Please keep,posting with your views. They are welcome as another potential perspective

 

[zoaman]

I too are not quite clear on this.You state that your daughter in laws parents bought the caravan.but its your son and daughter in law that are having a baby?
Sorry if this sounds harsh ,but I dont clearly see what any of this would have to do with canceling the aggreement?
But even setting that aside. I think that speaking with the dealer first may save solicitor fees. To see if a agreement can be reached before hand.I would certainly think if a solicitor letter was sent to the dealer they may be obliged to to seek legal advice themselves.then it could get costly.
Terms and conditions only need to be enforced by the dealer if they cannot come to a agreement. as already said if it because of size of caravan then maybe another otion would be avail.but if due to financial cercumstances,may be a different matter.

 

[otherclive]

Speaking to a solicitor doesn't automatically necessitate a solicitors letter. Also you may not need to pay for legal advice as if the Buyers are members of a union or professional institution there are often free legal help lines.

 

[Dustydog]

I too are not quite clear on this.You state that your daughter in laws parents bought the caravan.but its your son and daughter in law that are having a baby?
Sorry if this sounds harsh ,but I dont clearly see what any of this would have to do with canceling the aggreement?
But even setting that aside. I think that speaking with the dealer first may save solicitor fees. To see if a agreement can be reached before hand.I would certainly think if a solicitor letter was sent to the dealer they may be obliged to to seek legal advice themselves.then it could get costly.
Terms and conditions only need to be enforced by the dealer if they cannot come to a agreement. as already said if it because of size of caravan then maybe another otion would be avail.but if due to financial cercumstances,may be a different matter.

Simple.
Mil travels 300 miles weekly to look after child one 4days a week ,then drives home. Caravan will enable them to stay down south and have 3 days rest in caravan. New baby comes along mil no longer needed as daughter will be home looking after both children. No need for caravan.