Towcar of The Year Awards. Who is teaching who;what?

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all out there. I was somewhat taken aback when I looked into the pages of PCM and arrived at p69.
There is an image of the interior of one of the caravans used in the Towcar of The Year Awards,it is far from a typical caravan interior as used by you and definitely not me.
I fail to see how 8 partly filled water carriers can begin to represent some of the typical contents of a caravan loaded and ready for ones jollies.
It is a known fact that one of the most unstable loads that can be carried is liquid in containers albeit the carriers appear to be within a box of some description;they are not brimmed.
The mantra for loading caravans has been chanted and chanted and chanted within the pages of every caravan specific magazine that I have ever had my eyes around and it is a subject that is consistently the subject of forum discussions.
Furthermore I was further taken aback when I opened the pages of The Camping & Caravanning Club magazine and found an identical image and account of the antics of The Towcar of The Year Awards.
In my opinion (for what it is worth) it is about time that realistic loading of caravans was a priority. The loading of a caravan with all of the essentials and the 'clap-trap' that is typically stuffed into/onto the caravan would make a much more realistic,feasible and true to reality representation of what tow-cars/tow-vehicles are dealing with.
Practical exercises in one or two caravans,typically one single axle and one twin axle that might include the effects of wrongly positioning/loading the awning;for instance and a direct comparison between loading cupboards instead of positioning as is correct;down on the floor in boxes and braced to prevent movement whilst on the move.
I am slowly but surely coming to the conclusion that like the automotive manufacturers lead us all on with their magical and totally unattainable fuel consumption figures PCM is becoming a publication that could easily be compared with comics such as the Dandy,the Beano and some of the modern equivalents.
Typos and minor items of incorrect announcements are one thing but but the Towcar of The Year Awards is beginning to look more and more like the the old adage of :- Don't do as I do !!
The unfortunate thing is that there are a great many Newbies/Beginners and in some cases supposed seasoned caravanner's that read and see this 'Roll Model' stuff and really don't know any different. They are the ones that are out there disguised as 'Looking the part',until something goes wrong.

 

[Raywood]

The fact that water was being carried and the amount would be adjusted to getn the weight right for each towcar might mean the results of the stability tests were suspect as some cars would have more water slopping about than others.

 

[NigelHutson]

OK, let's present the facts!
ALL of the caravans used are standard production Swift models. The only differences are that the soft furnishings have been removed, and temporary boxes to contain the water containers are added. Once the caravans have been finished with by PC/What Car?/C&CC, they are returned to Swift to have any repairs carried out (if needed) and the boxes removed and the soft furnishings put back in. They are then sold on to a Dealer etc, etc (who is aware of the history!).
Secondly, ALL of the water containers used are as full as it's possible to get them (there may be at max a couple of cms which is not possible to fill) or totally empty. NONE are half full, a quarter full, or three quarters full, so therefore there is no water "slopping" around at all, and containers of different sizes are used.
I have looked at the photograph that you are referring to, and can see why you're thinking what you are, but I suspect that the colouring on the particular container is likely to be a shadow cast by the photographers flash, as none of the containers are filled (or not) to that level - I was there when they were loaded at Swift. I think that the container is likely to be an empty one, as the one to it's left is full, and there's no discolouring to that one..
We accept that all of the caravans used (remember, the caravans are not on test here, the cars are!) are loaded as if in Eutopia. However, as no two people would load a caravan identically and for safety's sake loose items are not used; to say nothing of any internal damage that would unnecessarily be caused to the caravans.
At the end of the day, no-one involved in the event is saying "The Eleventh Commandment sayeth thou must buyest this car", but testing all of the cars under as near as possible identical conditions with regards to weights etc gives a good indication of what's good and what's not. If a car is poor under the conditions tested in, you can bet that it will be even worse under non-test conditions.
All of the caravans tested are ballasted to the 85% figure, and the noseweights appropriate for each car. I know, I spent several days at the Swift factory lugging full and empty ballast containers around!
I'm sure that the organisers would be most interseted in your ideas for loading the caravans SAFELY with the bits and bobs you describe to the 85% weight and achieving a non-movable noseweight for the purposes of testing.
Not everyone has loose things inside a caravan. Granted there are things in cupboards and wardrobes, but I for one don't carry awnings/water containers/waste water recepticles etc, inside. They go in the boot of the car.
Finally, it is your choice as to whether you buy/read any magazine. If I found something as bad as you appear do, then I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't continue.

 

[ProfJohnL]

It is true that any fluid that has space to move will be affected by accelerations and will move the containers C of G

The use of part filled water containers to act as ballast in caravans is not especially dangerous as the degree of free movement of the water is constrained by the bottle, and as a proportion of the total caravan mass it will be very small.

In the context of a caravan if 30kg of water in a fixed container is enough to destabilise a caravan in tow, the it is almost certain that the caravan is inherently unstable for other reasons

As always you have to use good sense in such matters, and it would be inappropriate to use a single large tank to mimic the whole load of a caravan, but several smaller ones where the fluid is well constrained should not pose a problem

To suggest that fixed containers that are only part filled as described by PCM or indeed by my own methods is dangerous is scaremongering.

 

[NigelHutson]

But as I posted above Prof. ALL of the containers were either completely full (or as full as it was possible to do so) or completely empty, so not an issue.

 

[otherclive]

Ive sepnt far too many hours ensuring that vessels that float do so with their masts pointing skywards, or in that general direction. I fully concur with Nigel and Prof's views. But if anyone should be interested the link below shows quite graphically what a water free surface effect can do. I recall that as little as 25mm (1 inch) in the hangar could potentially render an aircraft carrier unstable. That's what caused the ferry Herald of Free Enterprise to heel over.
http://www.free-marine.com/i8freesurface.htm

 

[ProfJohnL]

Nigel I'm sorry if I gave the impression the PCM containers were only part full, it was not intentional. My point was that the even if they were only part full the danger from the Free Surface Effect is minimal when using small containers (that is compared to the whole vehicle)as described by PCM and myself.

Thank you Clive for that link, I was looking for something similar.

 

[NigelHutson]

Hi Prof,
Quite! Otherwise, where would we put the half drunk wine bottles - not that there are too many of those about?
Nigel.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Wine bottles?

I though all car enthusiasts were beer drinkers?

and caravanners being gragarious were party seven packs and amber nectar

 

[NigelHutson]

They are, but my wife insists on wine! She's the boss.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Excuse me butting in here boys but,I suggest that you take a look at the image on p69 of the August PCM magazine.
There is a clear image of one container that shows a level that is clearly defined,it is a long way from the top.
Furthermore there are other containers that are equally devoid of liquid in the upper reaches and an operative is holding what I can only presume is the next one to be placed into the container/box. That is also containing liquid that is a long way from the top.
I would post the image but I cannot be doing with the prating about with image hosting sites when I have perfectly good and secure images in my own PC that are transferred onto other forums on a daily basis.
If you have got the PCM magazine and cannot see the image clearly then I respectfully advise a visit to SpecSavers and in the meantime a declaration to DVLA about you visionary defects.

 

[otherclive]

Notwithstanding what the pictures you have seen may say, the free surface effect of the water to affect stability is absolutely minimal. See the link in my above post.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Rooster,

I haven't got my copy of PCM with the picture you refer to.

If you are that worried about free surface movement, then you should empty every fluid carrying container in your caravan - even the vinegar bottle, the toilet and all drinks etc. I think we all know that that is just plain daft.

The point is that provided the contained are small by comparison to the whole trailer both weight and size, then the the disturbance to stability of part filled containers will be minimal. Its very different to a tanker, where the major mass component is the fluid being transported, or the problems that ferries had when water gets into the vehicle decks.

Incidentally I already use Specsavers, but even their best spectacles wouldn't have helped on this occasion.

 

[NigelHutson]

The photograph that you refer to is the same one that I did in my previous post. Please re-read it as you will find an explanation for the colouring. I will repeat that NONE of the containers were filled to that level (whether or not it would have any effect on stability which I doubt anyway), and coloured water wasn't used.
Were you at the event? Ah, I thought not.

 

[Raywood]

While I take the point about filling the cylinders as full as possible it does seem to me that sand bags would be just as effective as ballast and far more stable as a load.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Ray,
In principle I agree, sand bags would be a good way of balasting, unfortuneatly, if you are dealing with the situation where you don't know for sure how much balast you need, then sand bags are not so easy, as you may not have a ready supply of sand, or disposal may be porblem if you have too much.
Water is a much simpler solution, as you generally dont need to carry it with you, as there are invariably taps near by and of course disposal is easy for excess.

 

[NigelHutson]

I've no doubt that there are all kinds of things that would be better, but as Prof J says, the water containers are by far the easiest to deal with. In the seven years that the event has been running, there have never been any issues with the containers in the caravans as every space is filled with either full ones (large or small) and/or empty ones, and are put into purpose made and secured boxes. It's difficult tyo wedge them all securely in the tow cars' boots though as they're all odd shapes and sizes, but we do our best.
The ONLY time that the load has moved was when a caravan bulkhead (at the front under where the front chest would be) broke due to the tremendous brakes on the towing Mercedes E-Class estate, but even then the load didn't slide about, and the situation was rectified as soon as possible.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all out there;again.
I have trawled through the replies to my opening post and I am afraid that there is a great deal that is still not good practice,right and proper never-mind the fact that 'stuffing stuff' into tow cars and caravans is what a great many do anyway. That is the reality and the ongoing facts of caravanning life for many,or at least until they learn better.
The effects of a partly filled single 25ltr plastic container with c18ltrs-20ltrs of fluid is not going to have a great effect on the stability of a caravan,I beg to differ but a dozen or more will. The collective weight of approximately 350ltrs-400ltrs of fluid sloshing about in the central region of a caravan and especially a single axle one at that is tantamount to having a couple of mischievous kids on the back seat of your car rocking and rolling to the sound of the drone of the tyres on the road.
Picking up on the fact that Prof John L has not got a copy of the page from PCM I will provide a copy by E'mail as an attachment to him if he sends me an E'mail to acyclingrooster@aol.com
I will keep an eye on the E'mail address for a few days,it is one that is only used for cycling forums. If he is away on his jollies then someone else can initiate it. Please mark the subject box as PCM copy required.
I accept the comment that it was a Towcar of The Year award and not a Caravan Testing exercise but nevertheless it is about caravans just as much as Tow-cars,otherwise they would be pulling builders trailers and portable compressors and horse-boxes;would they not?
The Caravan Club manage to make their annual Towcar of the Year tests as near reality as possible see p87 of the August 1013 publication.
There was a time,indeed a long time back and before I bought my first caravan that I would beg,borrow and occasionally even buy a copy of Practical Caravan Magazine,indeed by every means possible; other than shoplift. I am quickly coming to the conclusion that my subscription monies might be better invested elsewhere.
One of my observations of late is the apparent reliance on data bases,many of which are so far from factual that they are indeed; NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE.
I have been banging on for long enough now that newbies and novice caravanner's, 'The Future of Caravanning' and also a great many 'Seasoned Caravanner's' that should no better should be using the weighbridges and preferably the Dynamic Axle Weighbridges to ascertain their MiRO and their kerbweights (or the now so called MRO/unladen weight) for their tow-vehicles. The investment in a reliable Noseweight gauge is also a must,never-mind faffing around with bathroom scales and a stick. If they/you are serious about legal caravanning get it right to start with and hammer it home to them about the importance of a safe and totally legal outfit.
I shudder in disbelief at times when I read the ill-prepared nature of some of the exploits of newbies and novices that take to the roads with what is a potential weapon of mass destruction. Some of these are 'Adults' with young families that are intent on a cheap holiday alternative to flying off to the sun,it could actually be theirs and others very last trip;anywhere.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Personally I would not use water to ballast my caravan, not because of the sloshing effect, but more in case it broke free and the resulting damage it could cause, especially as I am now in my latter years of life and might just forget to tighten the cap!
I can't see any problem in using this method under test conditions to ballast the caravan in secure crates. Any item stored in a caravan is subject to movement from braking, cornering etc, be it water or a tin of baked beans.
And what about the gas cylinders, there a liquid and will slosh about, and like the proff has said are we to empty all liquid containers?
i have spent over 30 years in the printing industry and we use a lot of 1000 Ltr IBC's for various liquids, these are never full to the top on delivery, and normally arive on transit type vans, and in all that time I have never heard of a stability issue,or drivers refusing to load them. We also use the same IBC's to dispose of waste and these can be in various degrees of fullness, and again no issues.
No mater what the load consists of, providing it is evenly distributed and secured, and does not exceed the vehicles weight limit it should not create a problem.

 

[NigelHutson]

Rooster,
Please explain where you get 25-litre containers filled to 18-20 litres please? You continually refer to a photograph, on which I accept there appears to be shading to the container, BUT, I can categorically state (again!) that NONE of the containers were filled to that level. OK there might have been a little space at the top as it's impossible to completely fill containers of that shape and size, but not to the degree that you suggest. The shading is most likely to have been caused by one of the professional photographer's floor level flash guns (several are used). I know what you think that you can see (at first glance, and not being aware of the facts I too could easily think this!), but you are wrong. All of the containers that are filled are done so at the Swift factory (with clear water!), and are then transported by lorry to MIRA, where they are checked again prior to the testing. Or do you KNOW otherwise?
Secondly, it IS the cars that are being tested, NOT the caravans (although I have to admit that they do tow well with the ballast used!). As a major supporter of the event, Swift provide the caravans. Unfortunately, they do not manufacture builders' trailers, mobile compressors or horse boxes, which explains why they aren't tested. This year, with Swift's permission, Al-Ko (another sponsor) provided a box trailer for the light-weight class.
As said before, it is your choice as to whether you read PC or not, it's a free World.
By the way, the PC Tow Car event was started because one of the judges had been a judge for the Caravan Club's event and realised how badly flawed it was. As for the photograph in the Caravan Club's magazine, you are again jumping to a comclusion that is wrong. As with the PC event, each car is tested with regards to practicality. There is a standard set of kit (some of which you can see in that photograph), and the Practicality Judges see how much of it will fit into each car's boot; something that's clearly explained in the Towcar Awards item in PC etc. None of the equipment is used in the towing tests by either organisation. The Caravan Club (I believe) use a pile of sandbags for ballast.
The event is updated, with more and more tests appearing each year, and it is accepted that no event of this kind can ever be perfect.
Each caravan has its noseweight (as well as each wheel) measured at Swift using calibrated equipment. It's a long, labourious task as each caravan is ballasted to a required weight, and then the ballast juggled to get the right noseweight for each individual car. 40 cars = 40 weights!
Obviously you are quite at liberty to continue your "crusade", but please bear in mind that I have provided the facts, not just guesses, and therefore will not be taking any further part.
Happy 'vanning!

 

[Parksy]

Anyone reading through some of the accusations and ill thought out points in this thread could be forgiven for thinking that caravanners cause carnage on Britains roads when that is clearly not the case, and that a person who actually takes part in these towcar tests and who has written at length on this forum to describe the procedure is allegedly telling lies for some unspecified reason, when that is highly unlikely to be the case and is in fact an offensive supposition.
Travelling Rooster, you appear to wish to discredit the Practical Caravan Towcar of the Year Awards for reasons best known to yourself, but please rememer that forum etiquette Rule 4 states that 'You may not transmit complaints about named companies or caravan parks.
Such individual issues should be taken up with the company direct'
The Terms and Conditions that you agreed to as a condition of forum membership further state that you agree not to: disseminate any material which does or may bring Haymarket or any of
its brands or subsidiaries into dispute or in any way damage their
reputation
I suggest that rather than continue to breach forum etiquette and the Terms and Conditions you address any further allegations with regard to the methods used to judge the Practical Caravan Towcar of the Year to:
practical.caravan@haymarket.com
Practical Caravan
Teddington Studios
Teddington Lock
Broom Road
Teddington
TW11 9BE
Please consider carefully before adding further comments to this thread, further rule breaking after this warning will not be allowed to continue

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Rooster,

Your persistence in doubting the safety and functionality of using water as ballast has caused me to revisit my thinking on the matter.

Having now carefully reconsidered the process, I still conclude it is a perfectly acceptable safe method of ballasting for nose weight and relatively appropriate for ballasting for towing tests.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Check out PC on YouTube, you can see the video of the test, and the loading of the containers, and they all looked full to me.

 

[otherclive]

Rooster,
where do you get caravans that can be loaded to 350-400kg as that is what 350-400ltrs of water will weigh? You need to study some basic physics and perhaps Naval Architecture. As the 'sloshing effect' of the waters free surface is almost negligable when in containers. Even if the containers were not full the angle of the caravan is nowhere near what you can get on a ship/aircraft and therefore the movement of its center of gravity will be very little in relation to the caravans overall CoG. Putting the load into containers is the direct equivalent of what is done on ships and aircraft to ensure that when the vehicle is at an angle the change of CoG doesnt adversly affect the vehicles stabilty. So within the limits of what PC are seeking to achieve in towcar testing their approach is perfectly acceptable. In one of my eralier post I included a link to a video which shows the effects of free surface....its worth a look as it may put your mind at ease. Meanwhile I will continue to carry 2lts in the Thetford and 5 litres in the flush tank without any concerns!!(LoL)

 

[Gafferbill]

.......I cannot understand some peoples confusion here.

Nigel Hutson has reiterated several times that it is the tow car that is being tested and evaluated...... not the caravan or how it is loaded.
The movement of the liquid used in the test is effectively baffled by the size of the containers ........as otherclive has explained.
I see no problem at all.......especially as the test results are just a group of testers opinions