Towing with low nose weight

[Mel]

I have been on this forum for a long time and know that asking questions about noseweight can result in folks having to reach for their medication. I am therefore asking with the greatest trepidation, but here it is:
Our 2 berth Elddis has a rear kitchen which makes it nose light when towing unladen. For long winded reasons which I won’t go into, we need to tow it empty. I can take some ballast if needed to make the nose heavier, but don’t want to take any more than I have to. What is the minimum noseweight I should be aiming for.
The nose limit on the car tow ball is 75 kg
Vans plated MIRO is 1130 kg.

Short and pithy responses appreciated 😀
Thanks
mel

 

[otherclive]

5% should be fine. But realistically going up to the towball 75kg isn’t going to make any difference to the cars mpg.

 

[Tobes]

I have been on this forum for a long time and know that asking questions about noseweight can result in folks having to reach for their medication. I am therefore asking with the greatest trepidation, but here it is:
Our 2 berth Elddis has a rear kitchen which makes it nose light when towing unladen. For long winded reasons which I won’t go into, we need to tow it empty. I can take some ballast if needed to make the nose heavier, but don’t want to take any more than I have to. What is the minimum noseweight I should be aiming for.
The nose limit on the car tow ball is 75 kg
Vans plated MIRO is 1130 kg.

Short and pithy responses appreciated 😀
Thanks
mel

On a mass of 1130kg 5% to 7% is 56k to 79kg noseweight.
If your MIRO is accurate.
But - how much ballast you need depends on how nose light you are. Aim for 60Kg noseweight ?

 

[ProfJohnL]

You only need enough nose poad to keep your outfit stable. No one can tell you exactly what that figure is. But given the lightness of the caravan I expect Tobe's 60kg will likely be more than enough.

If you do use ballast to make sure its well secured so it can't move, And water containers are a good option as you can easily empty them to reduce their weight if you need to put them in the car for the return journey.

 

[Lutz]

I have towed my 1800kg caravan totally empty for over 100 miles from the dealer with only about 25kg noseweight. Obviously I did notice a difference and I did have to exercise extra care, especially at motorway speeds, but I wouldn't have described it as unmanageable, even if it's not really optimal.

 

[Hutch]

Mel, After retirement I towed caravans for a local lad to music festivals, maybe 3 different vans a day, all empty, as long as the van was nose heavy, probably 45kg they were fine. I would put the wheel lock, a big triangular thing as far forward as I could. Just take it easy on the speed,
Oh and none of them had ATC, and most were 4 berth about 1200 kg empty.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I have towed my 1800kg caravan totally empty for over 100 miles from the dealer with only about 25kg noseweight. Obviously I did notice a difference and I did have to exercise extra care, especially at motorway speeds, but I wouldn't have described it as unmanageable, even if it's not really optimal.

There are so many variables, and what might have been ok for you may not be a safe or sensible choice for others. It will be very much dependant on the tow vehicle, Speed and the skill of the driver.

 

[Mel]

Thanks everyone.I will aim for a 55-60kg minimum. That should make for a comfortable tow and is probably easily achievable if we put the wheel lock and just a few other bits in.
Mel

 

[Raywood]

5 to 7% is the figure the CAMH quote as best for towing.

 

[Lutz]

5 to 7% is the figure the CAMH quote as best for towing.

That’s difficult to achieve in many cases as 4% of the maximum permissible towload is all that the car manufacturers are required to guarantee, and many of them do just that.

 

[RogerL]

5 to 7% is the figure the CAMH quote as best for towing.

I've never seen any evidence that the "5-7%" recommendation is based on any factual testing - more a case of those numbers work with the typical MTPLM of UK caravans and the usual hitch limit of 100 kg.

Mel doesn't say how far or when this unladen tow needs to be done - just be aware that the present windy conditions will make an unladen caravan with lower than ideal noseweight even more twitchy - so just take it easy.

 

[Lutz]

I've never seen any evidence that the "5-7%" recommendation is based on any factual testing - more a case of those numbers work with the typical MTPLM of UK caravans and the usual hitch limit of 100 kg.

It’s usually the case that the towing vehicle‘s towbar noseweight limit is the determining factor and not the hitch limit of the caravan. Both my current and my previous car, one a Lexus, the other BMW, have 2000kg towload limits, but only 80kg noseweight on the towbar.

 

[ProfJohnL]

It's the way the EU (and still the UK's) directives on vehicle and trailer construction and use are written. effectively a vehicle is assessed and given a maximum towed weight limit. The directives tell you that tow bar assembly must be able to withstand an absolute minimum of 25kg nose loa , or a value not less than 4% of the towed weight limit set for the towing vehicle which ever is greater.

Some vehicle manufactures have determined the nose load can exceed the 4% of the towed weight limit, but it does not increase towed weight limit if you stick the 4% nose load value.

 

[xtrailman]

I have been on this forum for a long time and know that asking questions about noseweight can result in folks having to reach for their medication. I am therefore asking with the greatest trepidation, but here it is:
Our 2 berth Elddis has a rear kitchen which makes it nose light when towing unladen. For long winded reasons which I won’t go into, we need to tow it empty. I can take some ballast if needed to make the nose heavier, but don’t want to take any more than I have to. What is the minimum noseweight I should be aiming for.
The nose limit on the car tow ball is 75 kg
Vans plated MIRO is 1130 kg.

Short and pithy responses appreciated 😀
Thanks
mel

55 to 60 minimum.

 

[Raywood]

I have not seen any reports following testing of nose weight. What we seem to have is general advice based more on how combinations have performed so I cannot be certain of any figures, which is why I simply quoted the CAMH advice.

 

[Buckman]

I think what is taken into account is the maximum gross weight for the rear axle which then allows for the maximum gross weight or tongue weight on the towball to be within the specificatiosn of the rear axle. In our case the maximum tongue weight is 175kg. I don't think the term "noseweight" is used for vehicles .

 

[ProfJohnL]

The car manufacturers will all have their own methods for determining the maximum nose load each model of vehicle can safely accept. But the regulation they have to adhere to tells them towbar must be able to withstand a minimum of 4% (or 25kg whichever is greater) of the maximum towed weight allowance for the vehicle.

Do not assume you can use the full load capacity of your car's boot (trunk) and then add the nose load of a trailer and remain within the cars specification. Some cars have to derate the internal load capacity to accommodate the additional loads created by trailers.

It is up to the driver to ensure compliance with the load limits required by legislation and defined by the manufacture. Specifically in relation to trailer nose loads and the load it applies to vehicle's rear axle, you may need to reduce the load in the car, to accommodate the effect the trailers nose load produces on the cars rear axle. Check your vehicles specification, as each model has to be considered on its own merits.

 

[Buckman]

The car manufacturers will all have their own methods for determining the maximum nose load each model of vehicle can safely accept. But the regulation they have to adhere to tells them towbar must be able to withstand a minimum of 4% (or 25kg whichever is greater) of the maximum towed weight allowance for the vehicle.

Do not assume you can use the full load capacity of your car's boot (trunk) and then add the nose load of a trailer and remain within the cars specification. Some cars have to derate the internal load capacity to accommodate the additional loads created by trailers.

It is up to the driver to ensure compliance with the load limits required by legislation and defined by the manufacture. Specifically in relation to trailer nose loads and the load it applies to vehicle's rear axle, you may need to reduce the load in the car, to accommodate the effect the trailers nose load produces on the cars rear axle. Check your vehicles specification, as each model has to be considered on its own merits.

Not sure if it still affects current Vauxhalls, but a few years ago if the vehicle could tow 1600kg and you added had a load of 100kg in the car, it was then rated to tow 1500kg. If the load was 200kg then it would 1400kg etc. It was in the small print in the brochure.

 

[RogerL]

Not sure if it still affects current Vauxhalls, but a few years ago if the vehicle could tow 1600kg and you added had a load of 100kg in the car, it was then rated to tow 1500kg. If the load was 200kg then it would 1400kg etc. It was in the small print in the brochure.

That was only a short period in time - in the '80/90/00s Vauxhall's published towing weight matched the difference in Gross Train Weight and Maximum Authorised Weight. ie at full load - indeed if the car was unladen, you could exceed the towing weight and still be within plated limits - eg towing a car trailer.

For a long time Renault published towing limits that had to be reduced, kilo for kilo, by any load in the car - don't know their present position.

 

[ProfJohnL]

That was only a short period in time - in the '80/90/00s Vauxhall's published towing weight matched the difference in Gross Train Weight and Maximum Authorised Weight. ie at full load - indeed if the car was unladen, you could exceed the towing weight and still be within plated limits - eg towing a car trailer.

For a long time Renault published towing limits that had to be reduced, kilo for kilo, by any load in the car - don't know their present position.

The practice still occurs, but you can't assume it's the same for all models from the same manufacturer, so its important to check the specification for the precise model of tow vehicle you have.

Regardless of whether your car's specification allows for this practice or not the cars GTW figure is still an absolute limit, as are the individual axle loads and the car's GVW.

 

[Woodentop]

It would have been useful if the OP had told us what the existing empty noseweight is - it would have avoided considerable speculation.
My Unicorn S4 Seville noseweight is 31Kg when empty and I towed it 50 miles home on the A1(M) with no difficulty. Like the OP's my van has cooker, toilet/shower, and gas box all at the back, plus the battery and spare wheel are behind the axle. Now matter what we have done the highest noseweight for towing that we could achieve was/is 54Kg and it tows rock steady. Even with my 76kg son standing as far forward as possible inside the van (on our drive of course) the noseweight only went up to 72kg!!
Strangely Bailey dropped the Seville at the half life upgrade and replaced it with the Merida which has a different layout. When Series 5 came out the Seville returned - just a renamed Merida!

 

[ProfJohnL]

It would have been useful if the OP had told us what the existing empty noseweight is - it would have avoided considerable speculation.
...

I don't think having that information would change the advice given, It all depends on how the given combination, actually behaves. There have been occasions when I have towed the same trailer with different vehicles, and the outfit behaved quite differently.

I also believe that some caravanners who believe that bigger is better may well be towing with nose loads that are greater than is strictly necessary all of which increases wear tear, and I'm sure in some cases they may actually be overloading which has the potential to damage the tow vehicle and could be dangerous.

 

[Mel]

Hi folks. If it helps. Totally empty the noseweight was just below 50kg. We chucked, sorry, carefully loaded, a few heavier items in the front locker and this brought it up to just below 55kg. We towed on main A roads in the midlands in dry, not windy, daylight conditions. All great.
Thanks for all the input
mel

 

[RogerL]

I also believe that some caravanners who believe that bigger is better may well be towing with nose loads that are greater than is strictly necessary all of which increases wear tear, and I'm sure in some cases they may actually be overloading which has the potential to damage the tow vehicle and could be dangerous.

I'm one who advocates a noseweight as heavy as possible without exceeding any limit of car or caravan.

I'm curious how the increased wear and tear occurs as the total weight of the caravan remains unchanged, as does the total weight of the car - increasing noseweight will increase weiegt on car rear axle but reduce weight on the caravan axle(s)

 

[ProfJohnL]

I'm one who advocates a noseweight as heavy as possible without exceeding any limit of car or caravan.

I'm curious how the increased wear and tear occurs as the total weight of the caravan remains unchanged, as does the total weight of the car - increasing noseweight will increase weiegt on car rear axle but reduce weight on the caravan axle(s)

I should have made it clear, the wear and tear (in some cases literally a tear!) I was referring to was on the car. Tow bar mounting points are often just through sheet metal under the car.