Truma ultraheat not working on gas

[JeffinSpain]

Hi,

I've just purchased a 2001 Bailey Ranger 510-4 (private sale) and when I asked if all that should work does work, yes was the reply, however, when I got it home and checked for myself I found that the fire worked fine on electric but not on gas, with a new gas bottle I tried the cooker, ok, fridge, ok, water heater, ok, but not even a pilot light on the fire, I found the gas pipe under the van, there is a tee piece where a pipe goes to the fire, I undid the the flange nut and sure enough I had gas, the Pizzo ignition seems to work as I can see a spark through the glass spy hole on the fire.

Has anyone had this problem before?

Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Jeff.

 

[SirRogerFFS]

Jeff

A stupid question here ..... di you push the button or hold the heater control button down on trying to ignite it.

Have to try the silly things first

Sir Roger

 

[JeffinSpain]

Held down for at least 3 mins.

Thanks,

Jeff.

 

[jewells1]

Sound like it needs a new thermocouple, an easy job to change, & only a few quid

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Jeff.

First of all the Health and safety bit. - All work on gas installations must be carried out by a competent person. A competent person would know how to resolve your problem.

Assuming you have understood the correct starting procedure, if the heater is not lighting there must be some interruption to the gas supply somewhere in the appliance.

I have to advise you refer your caravan to a competent gas fitter.

John,

A failed thermocouple (Flame failure device) would still allow the pilot light to burn whilst the gas valve is pressed in to open the pilot port. But as soon as the gas valve was released the port would close and shut off the gas feed to the pilot.

The replacement of a thermocouple requires access to the gas system and that must only carried out by a competent person.

Whilst the replacement may be physical easy, very few DIY's have the necessary knowledge or equipment to provide the necessary testing of the system to the standard required by the law.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Jeff

I assume you have checked the red isolation valve is turned on?

It's in one of the cupboards near the heater.

Go onto the Truma web site. They have a problem solver chart. Check your Bailey handbook for the isolation valve location.

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[JeffinSpain]

Thanks John & Dusty Dog

I would say that I'm fairly competent having been on the gas conversion from coal to natural gas the then staying on for some years as a fitter, but as I'm not to familiar with caravan fires so I felt it best to ask, also, the van is here with me in southern Spain so no service stations.

As I said in my question the gas is from a tee in the gas line with no isolation switch and I can't get the pilot to light let alone the burner, the only bank of isolation switches are under the cooker, there are three, water heater, fridge and cooker.

Thanks for your help and advice.

Jeff.

 

[Dustydog]

Jeff

There must be another isolation switch specifically for the heater. Are you sure it isn't in the cupboard by the heater?

Maybe a Ranger owner can comment.

At least you wont need the gas heater where you are at the moment!

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[JeffinSpain]

I know it sounds strange DD and I will have another look, but the only gas pipe I can find is the one under the van, I have just emailed the helpline at Baileys, and of course if another ranger owner reads this then together we may crack it.

As for weather, the sun is shining and it's 27degs in the shade, poor me, but we have lots of rain.

Regards,

Jeff.

 

[JeffinSpain]

Many thanks for all your help one and all, the fire is now working perfectly on gas, all I need is a new gasket for the small spy window on the front of the fire.

Regards,

Jeff.

 

[xtrailman]

jeff

So what was the fault?

 

[JeffinSpain]

I undid the site glass, put the fire into pilot light position and inserted a long match, the pilot light lit albeit very floppy with white tips, that said to me that not enough air to the pilot, so I got out my air compressor and gave it a blast through the site glass hole I then went under the van and did the same with the air intake, one more blast inside (also did the did the blower fan for good measure) lit the pilot again with a long match and hey presto, a nice crisp blue pilot light, after 30secs let go and the burner lit, again nice crisp flame, I refitted the site glass and let it run for 30mins, I also went up on to and checked the flue, all clear.

I shall replace the site glass gasket as a matter of saftey and peace of mind, do a smoke test and again check the gas pipe joints that I touched.

Thanks again for all help and advice.

Jeff.

 

[xtrailman]

Jeff

Cheers, thats an interesting fault, and cure, another one for the memory bank.

 

[gary]

I'm not so sure Ray? I sometimes think JohnL bangs on far to much about H&E, the law etc, however, when I read blowing out with air line and lighting with long matches through the sight glass hole!. Worse others making note!!...

...that terrifies me!!!

While granted it now 'works', is it working safely? neither is a method I'd employ to fix a gas fire, particularly lighting through what should be a gas tight 'sight' hole, is simply asking for trouble.

And after all else, how long is it going to last, has it been fixed? or is it a short lived fix/bodge at best?

What I do know very well is that fire and I know what the airline shifted is still there, it can't get out!

I also know that all gas appliances give fair and safe warning they need attention, professional attention, ignore those warning signs at your peril!

PS, when working correctly, the valve should hold open after 5 or 10 seconds at most, around 15-20 seconds is often the first warning sign it's overdue a service.

 

[Damian]

Having read this topic, which unfortunately is on two parts of the forum I now know why John L has such a stance on H&S and the Law regarding gas appliances and what happens to them.

Here we have, in one short topic, a "How NOT to Do Things" which is, as Gary has said, Frightening.

We have the OP, who "thinks he is competent", but has never worked on LPG, and has proven that he quite obviously is far from competent in his "fix" for his fire.

We have another poster who advocates changing a safety item "because it sounds like it".

We then have the return of th eOP who has disturbed a vital safety part of the fire and is left with no room sealing from that fire until he sources a new gasket, not forgetting bypassing all the built in devices to light the fire in the first place.

He still does not know for certain what caused the inability of the fire to light, but whatever has been moved has not been removed, therefore the "cure" is nowhere near complete and will probably happen again, or he may have moved the obstruction to a place where it could cause even more dramatic problems.

I was tempted to remove every part of the "cure" but at the moment have decided to leave it as a warning to all caravan owners/users.

In LAW, unless you are demonstrably competent (ie have a certificate to PROVE it)to work on LPG you are commiting an offence to do so.

"Thinking" you are competent is simply not good enough.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Gary,

I will continue to bang on about the H&S side of things, especially when I read questions that clearly show the author not to have the necessary experience or knowledge that a competent person should have.

I am sue you have also seen incompetent tampering, and the potential for injury that can arise with gas appliances.

Sadly I have seen the results of incompetence and it is frightening how some people just don't see or understand the dangers of gas appliances that have been interfered with.

 

[machighlander]

just out of curiousity here, a "competent person."

is there a definition in the current health and safety regulations ?.

 

[Damian]

Yes there is a definition of a competent person in H&S regulations, as there is for anyone working on Electricity and a lot of other specialist disciplines.

 

[machighlander]

no being picky here buddy, but could someone maybe post it up, then all concerned might take a diferrent point of view on the importance of these matters.

 

[Damian]

Highlander, maybe it would be better if folk paid out the

 

[machighlander]

no, yer missing my point Damien.

in my humble opinion the internet social network has given people the opportunity to discuss and ask for advice on almost anything in the world. most times this can be very helpful and give proper guidance. however, there is always the possibility of someone quite naive to their chosen pastime/hobby/ leisure pursuit who would rely on and take on board some of the posts they read in their respective internet forums given by people who do not are have not got the credentials to do so.

this leads to potentially dangerous situations where the poster takes as gospel what one of the incompetent replies advises them.

i have been on other forums such as motorcycle related ones (something that i do know about) and have been frightened at times with some of the advice given out by supposed to be experts.

i for one am a newbie in these circles and i have gained invaluable information from others in relation to some of my queeries, however, if it were related to something like problems with gas etc, whereby there was the potential for disaster i personally would only heed what the professionals would reply, I.E. Swiftgroup, Bailey etc.

my point was that if someone had the means to post up current legislation which clearly states that only "competent persons" may carry this out, then it might deter others from doing so.

cheers.

 

[Damian]

No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so" adding that employees and self-employed people must be "a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive"

In a nutshell that is the requirement.

At the present time, Gas Safe is required for Domestic properties and(with the relevant LPG extension) Caravans which are hired out as part of a business.

Touring caravans NOT hired out are dealt with by ACoPS or Gas Safe with the relevant LPG extension.

Not all Gas Safe engineers can work on LPG.

The part which states "a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive"

means a certified engineer, holding the relevant certificates in the areas he works in, for touring caravans that is ACoPS 11, 15 and 17.

gas fittings" means gas pipework, valves (other than emergency controls), regulators and meters, and fittings, apparatus and appliances designed for use by consumers of gas for heating, lighting, cooking or other purposes for which gas can be used

Does this help at all?

 

[machighlander]

"Does this help at all ?."

i never in any way attempted to come across as being smarmy Damien, only asked if anyone thought that by posting some copy of the regs then some folks would take heed.

to answer yer last line, yes it helps, and i sincerely hope it might help others, which was my initial point.

no need to patronise.

 

[Damian]

Highlander, please do not think I was trying to patronise, certainly not.

Similarly I never interperted your question as smarmy.

I understand your point, and am only happy to try and give the right information, which sometimes does appear to be on th epatronising side, only due to the way the regulations are written.

My qualifications for passing on this information are:

ACoPs certified in areas 11, 15 and 17, 17th Edition Electrical Test and Inspection, Truma Approved Service Engineer, Dometic Approved Service Partner, Al-Ko Service Centre, C&G Dual Certificate in Caravan and Motorhome Engineering, Powrtouch Approved Service Engineer, NCC Approved Workshop

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thank you Damian for the details you have provided.

Hello Highlander,

The actual regulations are very long winded, and written in typical Whitehall gobbledgook and would bore the majority of readers beyond reason.

It would serve no practical purpose to post them in full, besides which it would actually be in breach of a Crown Copyright. If you want to see a copy they like everyone else you would need to purchase a set or perhaps pay a visit to your reference library.

It is far easier to allow an experienced fitter to interpret the regulations as they apply to a given set of circumstances.

From my own experience of working in the manufacturing industry for a number of companies, and having to provide guidance on the application of the regulations (admittedly not the most recent versions) the companies involved decided to err on the side of caution, and arranged for all their fitters to be appropriately trained and assessed and registered (at the time with CORGI).

As in any profession there may be disagreement on some aspects of the interpretation. It is my interpretation that in relation to caravans the full force of the regulations are applicable except that the person undertaking any work on a private caravan gas system does not need to be registered with Gas safe, but they must still be competent in all aspects of the work they work they undertake.

For many years it was commonly assumed that because private touring caravans have their own section in the regulations that states were exempt from the need to use a registered fitter for gas work, that it meant that anybody could undertake work on a the caravans gas system, but in fact all the regulations allowed was that the person undertaking work did not have to be part of a registered scheme of accreditation.

This is why many caravan workshops do not have all their fitters registered with Gas Safe. Interestingly, as Damian points out work on caravans for hire or as part of a commercial business must use registered fitters. Caravan workshops are commercial businesses, so it is a debatable point whether it is in fact legal for a caravan workshop not to have or use registered fitters.

However the remainder of the regulations remain fully in force, in so far that any person working on a gas system must be competent to do so. The duty on the fitter to test the installation still remains and they must work in accordance with the codes of practice and ACOPS.

The practical upshot of this is, it is highly unlikely that anyone other than trained gas fitter would have the necessary knowledge to undertake the job correctly or have access to the required equipment to perform the required testing.

A competent person would not have need to refer a gas related question to a public forum. Posting a question is tantamount to admitting incompetency.

The person who is responsible for a gas installation is legally liable for the safety of that installation. They must ensure that only persons fit to work on the system actually do so. It is often not appreciated that if an installation fails in some way that causes an H&S investigation, and resulting prosecution is pursued through the criminal and not civil courts, and sentences can and do involve fines and prison terms and a criminal record. Action can be taken against the responsible person, and the person who actually worked on the system.

The strange anomaly in the regulations for private caravans are in my view circumvented by the overall impact of the regulations as a whole, and by the increasing complexity of the code of practice and the duties that all fitters have to complete. But as the regulations stand I can only reiterate that a person must be competent to work on any gas installation in a caravan.