Van back from repairers

[FrintonMike]

Just picked up the van from the dealer after 14 days whilst they replace the rear panel due to accident damage whilst parked and now looking forward to going to Bath next week.
I still cannot see why Swift cannot supply a rear panel six year old van. The dealer had to source a pattern part. Car manufacturers can supply parts for a six year old car so why cannot caravan manufacturers supply parts for a six year old van ?
Whilst in I asked the dealer to replace the waste pipe under the van from the kitchen sink as it was leaking. The dealer says it was leaking because rodents had been chewing on the pipe. Many years ago we did have mice get into the van but detered them by, I think, putting mothballs under the seats but I cannot think of a way to stop them damaging outside pipes whilst in storage. Any ideas ?

 

[Parksy]

Put mothballs into cut up sections of your wifes old tights and tie these to the pipe under the caravan. You could try sprinkling Jeyes Fluid around the area where your caravan is stored and if you must leave the corner steadies down paint them with Jeyes Fluid, do the same with the jockey wheel and road wheels.
Mice urinate to leave scent trails which are followed by other mice so the mothballs and Jeyes Fluid will mask the scent trail and deter the mice.
By the way Mike, I received your email request for forum stickers the other day and replied asking for your postal address. Have you received my reply?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi Mike,
I understand your frustration with the availability of parts for older caravans, but I feel I must have some sympathy with Swift on this particular one. Unless a component is a recognised consumable (i.e. brake pads, water filters etc.) it would be tremendously expensive and a logistical nightmare to hold parts in any quantity covering the colour and option choices, on the off chance that someone might want one 6 years past its production date.

Holding stock costs a lot these days, and most businesses are looking towards lean manufacturing to keep costs down.

Whilst the caravan industry is a "mass producer" and employs production lines, they do not have anywhere near the same scale of production as the car industry. For caravan body mouldings it is likely there will only every be one mould made, where as the car industry often has several manufactures producing the same component to help smooth out supply problems.

At the end of a caravan production design, the moulds may well be sold or licenced to a separate business who will service the repairs market.

As the demand for these parts is very low there can often be a significant lead time needed to dial in the production time necessary to recommission the mould. There can be issues with obtaining the correct pigments to achieve a colour match. the mould may need to be "conditioned" by producing a number of test pieces to achieve a good surface finish. and there may be particular quirks the mould has that need to be re-learnt before an acceptable piece can be realised. All this takes time and money.

However I am glad you at least have your caravan back now. I cant help with the wee beasties and your waste pipes, except to suggest that you take extra care when restoring your caravan to clean the pipes of any residue that might be an attractive mean for the rats.

 

[FrintonMike]

Parksy, it wasn't me asking for window sticker as I received mine last year

 

[BernardinTring]

I too have used mothballs and it really does keep the van smelling sweetly, if you like that kind of thing! Trouble is can no longer find a local hardware stockist. Keep telling me they have been banned due to some Brussels EU edit and no longer available.
Anyone know of 'hidden supplies'?
bernard

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Mike,
I understand your frustration with the availability of parts for older caravans, but I feel I must have some sympathy with Swift on this particular one. Unless a component is a recognised consumable (i.e. brake pads, water filters etc.) it would be tremendously expensive and a logistical nightmare to hold parts in any quantity covering the colour and option choices, on the off chance that someone might want one 6 years past its production date.

Holding stock costs a lot these days, and most businesses are looking towards lean manufacturing to keep costs down.

Whilst the caravan industry is a "mass producer" and employs production lines, they do not have anywhere near the same scale of production as the car industry. For caravan body mouldings it is likely there will only every be one mould made, where as the car industry often has several manufactures producing the same component to help smooth out supply problems.

At the end of a caravan production design, the moulds may well be sold or licenced to a separate business who will service the repairs market.

As the demand for these parts is very low there can often be a significant lead time needed to dial in the production time necessary to recommission the mould. There can be issues with obtaining the correct pigments to achieve a colour match. the mould may need to be "conditioned" by producing a number of test pieces to achieve a good surface finish. and there may be particular quirks the mould has that need to be re-learnt before an acceptable piece can be realised. All this takes time and money.

However I am glad you at least have your caravan back now. I cant help with the wee beasties and your waste pipes, except to suggest that you take extra care when restoring your caravan to clean the pipes of any residue that might be an attractive mean for the rats.

Prof John

Interesting points in your posts.
Now the big boys are offering 10 year water ingress guarantees surely they should be keeping supplies of front and rear panels ? Even at six years old I question why Swift and others haven't kept a supply of OEM replacements??

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dusty,

I hoped I had explained why its impractical for a manufacture to carry stock panels for all models and colour combinations. The diversity would require massive storage space and as appearance and finish are crucial to the value of the item, long-term stock holding not only increases the chances of stock room damage rendering a unit worthless, but also some materials may require careful environmental control of the storage area to prevent ageing or other forms of degradation. All very very expensive.

Whilst is is not ideal from the customers point of view, it is almost certainly a better commercial decision to mould on demand, rather than carry stock. Lead times may be longer, but the overall cost will be cheaper than having to fund the storage of product with an unknown demand which will be very small.

Longer warranties will not dramatically change the demand for repair panels. It only affects who pays for them.

 

[MrsSorento]

I'm a Kleeneze catalogue distrutor and they sell a pack of 15 cedar wood balls for £5.95. If you have a local distributor they can get them for you or I can order them for you plus P&P if you would like me to. regards. Lisa

 

[Dustydog]

Hello Dusty,

I hoped I had explained why its impractical for a manufacture to carry stock panels for all models and colour combinations. The diversity would require massive storage space and as appearance and finish are crucial to the value of the item, long-term stock holding not only increases the chances of stock room damage rendering a unit worthless, but also some materials may require careful environmental control of the storage area to prevent ageing or other forms of degradation. All very very expensive.

Whilst is is not ideal from the customers point of view, it is almost certainly a better commercial decision to mould on demand, rather than carry stock. Lead times may be longer, but the overall cost will be cheaper than having to fund the storage of product with an unknown demand which will be very small.

Longer warranties will not dramatically change the demand for repair panels. It only affects who pays for them.

Hi John

So what is the point

of being ISO 9001 accredited?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dusty,
ISO 9001 is a model based standard and does not place any enforceable requirement on a business to make spare spare parts available. ISO 9001 organisations only has to have a compliant strategy to continually improve in all key areas which includes Customer Satisfaction. ISO 9001 does not directly specify how to improve, only that you have to demonstrate through evidence based data that improvement is an aim of the organisation and that is occurring over time. Spare part availability does not have to be part of that strategy, though in many organisations it is a possible criteria.

Some products groups (such as gas appliances) are subject to regulations and enforceable codes of practice outside of ISO 9001 that require spares to be available for a number of years after production of a product ceases. But I don't believe caravan body parts are one of them.

The definition of "availability" in this context does not necessarily mean direct from stock, but it can mean the organisation has the means to acquire or produce the parts on demand. This can be using the organisation themselves or a sub contractor.

Where no regulatory requirement covering the availability of spares exists, the organisation can have any spares policy they wish.

However, it is a common approach for small items or those that have a limited service life to be held in stock for immediate despatch, but for low demand, or larger parts as described in my earlier replies, stock holding is impractical, and simply having the means to produce on demand even with a lead time is both a reasonable approach and usually far more cost effective.

If organisations were forced to hold all obsolete spare parts in stock for 10 years, depending on the product (such as caravan body panels) the cost of that stock holding could be astronomical. Holding stock costs money, and those costs would be passed onto customers by increasing prices both for the new product and any spares they latter purchase.

 

[Dustydog]

Morning John

I knew I could rely on you for a comprehensive explanation.Thankyou

May I ask what would happen where the manufacturer could no longer supply or source a panel on a 5 year old unit where the panel was the cause of water ingress.
Would the Owner be entitled to a replacement caravan ?

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

They might if they rang the BBC and got Dom Littlewood involved

Because, the senario under discussion is very similar to the program, your contract is with the dealer so if the manufacturer could not supply the parts, the dealer would have to source them elsewhere. to effect a repair, and in turn could cause the manufacture to deny liability if the problem is not resolved.
it is suprising though how quickly your new van becomes old and obsolete after spending so much money on them, in effect at 6 years old, you are on your own!!!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Oh Dusty you are a tease!

As I pointed out in my last diatribe, A manufacturer can write its own spares policy unless it is superseded by regulations. So let us assume a caravan company has established a 10 year water tight body guarantee. If they are sensible they will make provision to service that guarantee, which would probably include the means to produce replacement large scale caravan mouldings.

As this is a manufacturers guarantee you would need to consult their terms and conditions which should contain clauses that deal with the situation where replacement parts are not available. It is likely to allow repairs.

Now if you were trying to trip me up regards Sale of Goods situation, then you must recall the right to reject a product and either claim replacement or full refund under SoGA is severely time limited. Given your scenario of a 5 year old caravan starting to leak for the first time then total caravan replacement under SoGA is not going to happen. A repair to the moulding is all that you could realistically expect.

The only time that SoGA might suggest a replacement is called for is if the caravan has persistently demonstrated the same or closely related faults despite previous repairs to correct the problem since its purchase.

Don't forget that under SoGA, neither the customer or the seller should make any pecuniary gain if a fault arises, thus the fact that a customer has been able to make full unfettered use of the caravan for 5 years would mean that it only needs to be repaired to a condition commensurate with its age.

 

[Parksy]

Morning John

I knew I could rely on you for a comprehensive explanation.Thankyou

May I ask what would happen where the manufacturer could no longer supply or source a panel on a 5 year old unit where the panel was the cause of water ingress.
Would the Owner be entitled to a replacement caravan ?

Naughty DD, trying to get the Prof going

Even though items such as panels are not held in stock they could still be made. The moulds or jigs are unlikely to be destroyed and companies such as Exhaust Ejector can manufacture some plasic based items by using the remains of the old one as a pattern as they do with repacement polyplastic windows.

 

[Raywood]

I do understand the argument that keeping spare panels would not be economical. It does seem to me that keeping the moulds for say ten years would not be that expensive and surely a new part could be made reasonably quickly if that were the case.
My experience of manufacturers parts supply in general is that it is abysmal, four months for a table top identical to current at the time models from Coachman and similar delays from Eldiss for simple parts.

 

[Dustydog]

Ok Parksy
I own up

I was thinking of the Avondale Osprey ..................

John
Your explanations are not wasted and as usual will prove a great benefit to others on here. Thanks.

 

[Parksy]

.......I was thinking of the Avondale Osprey ..................

The Avondale panels might be a bit difficult to get hold of unless the panels were made by a separate manufacturer but new ones could be made by using the old ones as a pattern surely, if Messrs Cohen decide to bite the bullet and offer a Little Help?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Dusty,

With reference to Avondale, the Manufacture as we know has closed, and the factory is no longer even capable of producing caravans. Though the companies stock of spares was i believe purchased by Magnum Motorhomes and Caravan Supplies Ltd, of Grimsby. Whetehr that includes end mouldings or the facility to produce them I don't know

Any Manufactures warranty will cease, so no redress there.

As for SoGA on an Avondale product,,
If it has been a persistent problem over an extended period, and numerous repairs have failed to correct the problem and ultimately it is decided by the courts the caravan was not fit for purpose from the point of sale, then you would be normally be offered a new replacemnt caravan or a full refund even if the product is five years old. That liability falls on the retailer. As Avondale has closed, the only way to conform with the courts ruling would be to do a full refund.

However in the circumstances you described where ingress only manifested at 5years, then my previous postings apply.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi John

You know there is method in my madness

Say for example it can be demonstrated an inherent latent defect was present at the point of sale but did not manifest itself until say 4 years later.
Do you consider repayment of the full original purchase is the measure of restitution? Or whatever??
I promise I wont pester you again for a while

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Dusty,

I'm sorry but I think your onto a looser here.

Firstly a failure that only becomes apparent for the first time four years after purchase will I assure you will be exceptionally difficult to prove it was present at the point of purchase and is the only cause of the current problem.

But even assuming you could prove it was faulty at the point of purchase, the fact the van has been used without apparent difficulties shows the caravan has provided some value and was at least functional for a substantive period.

Under SoGA the right to reject and claim a full refund or replacement is only supported within a very short time from the POP. 4 years is actually quite old.

Full replacement or refunds are normally only allowed where the product is clearly faulty from new and is still virtually new. The exceptions are when a product has continually proven troublesome despite repeated repairs colloquially known as 'lemons'.

If you were able to persuade either the seller or a court the symptoms were the result of a fault that was present at the POP, because it is has been used for so long then realistically all you could claim is the current nominal value of the caravan if it were not faulty.

I'm quite happy to play throw the stick with you, but please ask your owner to treat your fleas'

 

[RayS]

I have great sympathy for the theme of this thread, but the reality is that it would be totally uneconomic for a manufacturer to hold spare panels for every van they have made.This situation is made far worse by the habit of following fashion and making small changes each year instead of running with a line for a few years as do car makers.. If all makers did this, the percieved lack of competitive edge due to new models would soon even out. Some makers are not even very good at standardising within their own range - the 'spares box' approach of the motor industry whereby, for example, early Disco's shared some components with Marinas, and many differently branded vehicles have the same power units.

A further complication is the accounting policies adoped in UK which make it difficult for manufacturers to carry much spare stock over the years. In my Sales Engineer days i supplied instruments to a leading UK diesel engine maker who, at that time, claimed to be able to supply spares for every engine they had made since 1925. Then the accountants stepped in......

About 10 years ago I damaged the side panel of an 18 month old British made van and this required a new side panel. It seems that even the major manufacturers do not make their ouwn panels but the majority come from a single factory (name escapes me) somewhere in the Midlands. If they are in the middle of making batches of panels for current caravans, requests for one-offs for earlier models go right to the back of a very long queue. In my case the delay was made worse / intolerable as the first panel manufactured had the window cut-out in the wrong place, the second panel was damaged due to being offloaded in a very high wind, and the thriid was rolled like a carpet by someone receiving it. Total nightmare. Since then I have decided I will live with some panel damage (should it happen) unless very bad. With an older van, the best outcome would probably be an insurance write-off.