Very low nosewight limits?

[NorfolkMatt]

Hello everyone, new to the forum so thought I'd say hello and ask a quick question. Bit of an intro to me, 38yrs old living nr North Walsham in North Norfolk, never owned a caravan but we've decided to take the plunge and are just taking baby steps into working out what we want and how to go about it

My question is around the noseweight limit for my vehicle, which is a 2008 Peugeot 207SW Outdoor (110BHP 1.6HDI) which has, what seems a very low 46kg noseweight limit. How does this impact stability? I understand that I need to load a caravan so that the noseweight is as near to the cars maximum figure as possible, but with a max limit that low, I worry about how acheivable that will be whilst retaining a decent stability margin.

The caravan I was looking at is a 2002 Lunar Chateau 400, which seems ideal for us, light and airy and a nice layout (are they as nice as they seem?), but if I were able to get the nose weight down to 45kg or so, is that going to mean that the centre of gravity of the caravan is too far back, I understand that the CG would need to be ahead of the main wheels?

Any help would be appreciated, as I am a newbie about how the different weights and balances affect things. Would the suggested car/van combo be suitable or safe?

Cheers

Matt

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Please could you let us know:
- the Mass In Service (possibly para G on your vehicle Registration document) for your Peugeot
- the MTPLM of the van (on a plate below the door?)
- the recommended min and max noseweight for the van

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Mat, and welcome to the forum.

Lets start with your car, the Peugeot 207 is a small car and consequently it can only manage a small trailer. The EU regulations tell car manufacturers they must ensure the tow hitch assembly must be able to carry a which ever is bigger of 25kg nose load or a minimum of 4% of the maximum towed weight limit.

My information suggests the car has an unladen weight of about 1350 with a braked towed weight limit of 1150. That gives a weight ratio of almost exactly 85%. The 4% nose load figure is exactly 46kg so there is no grace on that point.

Having enough nose load is important for helping to maintain stability, but that is only one factor of many that actually affect stability.

Load distribution within the caravan will be important. Always keep the heaviest items as close to the axle of the caravan. This reduces the yaw moment. Use smaller items to trim for the desired nose load.

The caravans centre of mass (gravity) has to be in front of the wheels, this is what generates the nose load.

Its a matter of record that the UK caravan industry recommend aiming for a nose loads of between 5 and 7% of trailer weight which for the 207 would depress the available towed weight to (7%) 657kg to (5%) 920kg - but these are only guidelines not laws.

With your choice of car and caravan, I agree you probably will need to use virtually all the nose load capacity. But that is not always the case for all outfits, you only need enough nose load to maintain stability, that may not be all of the available capacity.

Stability and good towing is not just about getting one thing right it a range of criteria, Nose load, and load distribution, but also driving style. Speed is also a factor, so do not be afraid to slow down if you begin to detect instability.

 

[NorfolkMatt]

Many thanks both, and looking into things a little as much as I can, I find that the MTPL of my intended van is around 1100kg, with a MRO of 880kg, the car is 1370kg, but then, with 2 adults, 3 kids and some luggage I'd think that would be nearer 1500kg

If we travel light, and I think we could, by replacing gas tanks with lighter ones, and utilising the roof rack/boot of the car to minimise the "cargo" in the van, then I think we ought to be in with a chance of hitting 900kg.

Stability wise, presumably as speed is kept down, stability becomes less critical?

Would it therefore be sensible to ask a more experienced tower to "test drive" the intended rig (ie someone from the caravan sales place) to see how it drives?

Thanks folks

Matt

 

[ProfJohnL]

Many thanks both, and looking into things a little as much as I can, I find that the MTPL of my intended van is around 1100kg, with a MRO of 880kg, the car is 1370kg, but then, with 2 adults, 3 kids and some luggage I'd think that would be nearer 1500kg

If we travel light, and I think we could, by replacing gas tanks with lighter ones, and utilising the roof rack/boot of the car to minimise the "cargo" in the van, then I think we ought to be in with a chance of hitting 900kg.

Stability wise, presumably as speed is kept down, stability becomes less critical?

Would it therefore be sensible to ask a more experienced tower to "test drive" the intended rig (ie someone from the caravan sales place) to see how it drives?

Thanks folks

Matt

Hello again Matt,

I think you are being a little pessimistic. The critical figures you need to observe are the maximum limits for the car and its trailer. I have some information about the
Peugeot 207 SW Outdoor XS 1.6 HDiF 16V 110hp 2007 - 2009
and it tells me the following important bits of information

Empty mass: 1250 kg
Max. permissible mass: 1758 kg
Max. trailer mass braked: 1150 kg
Max. nose weight: 50 kg
Max. roof load: 75 kg

Now I must warn you that finding information like this on third party web sites is always open to error, so you should verify the data with your V5c and the vehicle weights plate usually found either in the engine bay or on a door pillar or in the boot, and the nose load should be stamped on the tow bar fitting.

Kerb weights or empty masses are also very variable even from car to car, so dont assume the printed value is correct - in fact many manufactures do not quote a kerbweight any more.

The car must not exceed its Max. permissible mass: 1758 kg when fully loaded with people luggage and because we are talking about caravans, you must include the nose load in the cars calculation.

You tell us your caravan has an MTPLM of 1100, which is 88% of the cars stated empty weight - That should not be a problem. the 85% recommendation is a guideline only and has no basis in law.

Again your nose load limit (you say 46, my source suggests 50kg) I hope will be sufficient but only towing will tell.

I think the idea of having a test tow using your car is great, but I'm not sure whether dealers will allow it as their insurance may not cover it. Also I would not use an employee of the sellers as they have an agenda to sell the caravan, You would be better if you can find a friendly experienced caravanner and take them along with you. Thier help and observations may prove very useful. Ultimately it's how you get on with towing that realy counts.

Good luck

 

[Raywood]

I agree with what has been said but feel it will be very difficult to get the nose weight down to 50Kg. I would explain your problem to the dealer and see if the have a gauge for measuring the nose weight and check it on that before you go any further. If you do not have this information I would not consider the caravan.
My feeling is that if you want to take up caravanning then you need to change the car.
Do not be tempted to load the rear of thecvaravan to get the nose weight down as that could cause instability.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Matt.

I don't wholly agree with Ray on this instance.

Providing you observe my original post where I wrote

Load distribution within the caravan will be important. Always keep the heaviest items as close to the axle of the caravan. This reduces the yaw moment. Use smaller items to trim for the desired nose load.

A caravan is like a see saw, if it's too heavy at one end, you only need to move some of the mass to the the other end to produce the desired effect.

In my experience there is usually enough heavy items on the floor (the awning, or may be the spare wheel) which by moving them rearwards a bit is often enough.

On the occasion where there is no load (eg new caravans) or nothing that can be moved, then I have resorted to using plastic water bottles at the rear of the caravan (wedged so they can't move about) filled enough to produce the reduction in nose load.

This has rarely been more than 40 litres (40kg) on some big caravans and I'd guess you shouldn't need more than about 20L. I would be very surprised if this small amount would cause instability. IF it does start to cause problems, I would venture to suggest there is an underlying problem with either the caravan or the tow car.

I do agree with Ray, that in the longer term you should perhaps look for a tow car with a bigger towing capacity.

 

[NorfolkMatt]

I understand that perhaps this isn't the ideal car to tow a caravan with, and perhaps in the long term, changing that is the thing to do. However, I found the following;

http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/advice-and-training/choosing-a-vehicle/choosing-a-towcar/tested-towcars/peugeot/peugeot-207-sport-sw-hdi-110
Which doesn't seem too discouraging, and would seem to suggest that if speed is kept down, then things shouldn't be too scary.

I don't want to get into something I find difficult/anxious/testing however, as that would completely detract from the aim of the enterprise, so some further thought on the matter may be needed.

I wish I'd kept my old Series 3 Lightweight Landrover now!

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi Mat,
it is possible to own and use a caravan with a lighter car "absolutely"
can you successfully tow with a nose weight less than 50kg "absolutely"
will it cause instability "certainly not"
can you enjoy caravanning with a smaller outfit "probably more than you would towing a bungalow with a chelsea tractor"
careful loading is the key you can get the noseweight to any figure you wish, as long as you keep it balanced left to right front to back, heavy items on floor.
2 of my last 4 tow cars had low nose weights less than 50kg 3 out of the 4 had kerb weights less than 1200kg never caused a problem dead stable it is not the weight but the balance. 45kg is about 8 stone or 100lbs more than enough to keep the van in line.
my advice get your van stick it on the car you have adjust the weight and enjoy.

 

[NorfolkMatt]

Thanks Colin, I hadn't thought about the weight in those terms, but of course you are right. Maybe there is a bit of a trend towards towing ever heavier vans with ever bigger cars, and certainly if I look back on it, my neighbours used to tow their caravan around behind an old Austin Maestro, and that is neither a heavy nro a powerful motor car.

With regard to weight distribution and managing the weight, has anyone used one of these;

http://www.amazon.co.uk/MOUNTED-CARAVAN-TRAILER-WEIGHT-GAUGE/dp/B0046ZB5QI
Looks like a handy gadget, hook the van to the car, and fiddle around with the loading until it reads the right amount.

Thanks

 

[Dustydog]

Save your money Matt.
These spring gauges are not accurate and need careful height adjustment to ensure the caravan is level.Press the front of your caravan with a finger and you can induce a 20kg difference.
Sir Sprocket designed an H frame with height adjustment made to suit his caravan.Using digital accurate bathroom scales good readings can be obtained.
I first towed a CI Sprite with a 1200cc Ford Cortina. It had a long tail overhang and could hardly pull the skin off a rice pudding.
There are plenty of four berth caravans within your overall limit.
I suggest you speak with Peugeot and consider fitting their heavy duty rear springs and shock absorbers. You may have to upgrade the front too.
I belive the advice on here is sound but clearly using your current vehicle does restrict your choice but not to the point where touring with a family cannot be fun.
Full awnings greatly increase your living space for example

 

[Sproket]

Hi Matt
There has been plenty of debate over the years regarding nose weight and the best way to check it hmy: maybe you would like to read this thread and you will see Gagakevs offering on the last page... but do read it all

This is the one that i originally made that Gagakev has adapted his own design to ..

As you can see it is height adjustable ....

And the scale readout can be read quite easily

By checking the nose weight with the scales and using it as a reference for the correct weight, i then use a Reich TLC Digital Noseweight Gauge, to see what difference there is and then use that when touring.
I find it's easy to use and store, but everyone has there own preferred method of checking it....

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Matt.

I won't go into the twin axle debate here as it does not apply to you, but Every single axle trailer will produce a higher nose load if the hitch is low and as the hitch raised the nose load will reduce. Consequently you must follow the correct measurement method which requires the trailer nose load to be measured with its hitch at the same height from the ground as when it is coupled to tow vehicle and ready to tow will all passengers, luggage etc.

Any device that cannot accurately produce the towing nose height will give inaccurate results.

Sprokets and Gagakevs elegant solution gets around this as shown in Sprokets pictures. As an alternative, put the bathroom scales on caravan step and use magazines under the scales to adjust the height, and then put and old carrier bag over the hitch to stop soiling the scales and rest the hitch on the scales.