Vintage Tow Cars

[M5WJF]

Probably been asked before, but this 40 bhp/tonne recommendation seems not to apply to vintage cars, at least according to the manufacturers.

I have a 1976 Volkswagen Transporter, converted into a Campervan, it weighs (before loading) around 1250kg, and has a 50bhp 1584cc engine.

This works out at 40 bhp/tonne before anyone gets in it, or loads it up, so assuming 150kg of Camping Gear, and two people (approx 160kg total), and we're already edging well below that figure to a tad over 32 bhp/tonne, and the VW Manual states it can tow up to 1.2 tonnes.

OK, so lets say that's figures for a 1970cc engine at 70bhp, the figure that comes out of that is 25.3 bhp/tonne, (for mine that would be as low as 18.1 bhp/tonne).

So, if I'm to believe the 40 bhp/tonne figure should be applied to the Campervan, I shouldn't drive it anywhere, so can anyone advise of a more reasonable figure for vintage vehicles?

Cheers.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Your answer is in the title, your camper is NOT towing. Therefore the figures are not applicable.

 

[M5WJF]

Your answer is in the title, your camper is NOT towing. Therefore the figures are not applicable.

Well I'm sure you were trying to be helpful, however, I'm fitting a tow bar and will be towing, and a reasonable bhp/tonne figure for vintage tow vehicles would allow me to choose the right trailer/caravan.

I'm leaning towards keeping it above 30 bhp/tonne, but there must be experienced drivers here who once used, or still use, a combination with a vintage tow vehicle, and have a practical response to this; was it always down to following manufacturers recommendations before the arbitrary figure of 40 bhp/tonne came into use on a date that I am unaware?

 

[colin-yorkshire]

Your answer is in the title, your camper is NOT towing. Therefore the figures are not applicable.

But would be if you put a 1200kg trailer on the back. :lol: :lol:
no it's all rubbish ignore it, very misleading like any recommendation it is based on ideals, older vehicles pulled over a ton [imperial] with a 10hp engine, [calculated differently at 1hp per 100cc] they didnt go very fast but before motorways that did not matter,
never taken any heed of it myself, my motor home was based on the LT35 weighed 3.500kg and capable of towing a 2tonne trailer [which it did several times] the engine, 6cyl 2.5 ltr was rated at 75kwh [100bhp] or 55kg per hp or 18 bhp per tonne [1000kg] your figure for a 1970's engine sounds about right to me!!!.

 

[M5WJF]

Your answer is in the title, your camper is NOT towing. Therefore the figures are not applicable.

But would be if you put a 1200kg trailer on the back. :lol: :lol:
no it's all rubbish ignore it, very misleading like any recommendation it is based on ideals, older vehicles pulled over a ton [imperial] with a 10hp engine, [calculated differently at 1hp per 100cc] they didnt go very fast but before motorways that did not matter,
never taken any heed of it myself, my motor home was based on the LT35 weighed 3.500kg and capable of towing a 2tonne trailer [which it did several times] the engine, 6cyl 2.5 ltr was rated at 75kwh [100bhp] or 55kg per hp or 18 bhp per tonne [1000kg] your figure for a 1970's engine sounds about right to me!!!.

That is extremely helpful, makes me think an Eriba Puck is possible, thanks.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

The original post made no mention of fitting a tow bar or even towing (other than in the title), but just made mention of the vehicle weights, hence my original comments.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

your welcome if it is any consolation one often sees the older VW's towing quite large camping trailers and trailer tents so these would be around 500kg mark.

 

[M5WJF]

The original post made no mention of fitting a tow bar or even towing (other than in the title), but just made mention of the vehicle weights, hence my original comments.

I'm sure I mentioned that the Camper was supposed to be capable of towing 1.2 tonnes, but perhaps my post could be read differently.

However, taking the trouble to search for, and register with, a Forum dedicated to towing Caravans/Trailers might have been an indicator of why I was asking the question, still, you have my apologies.

I also have procured original tow bars for a 1973 VW Type 3 Squareback (54 bhp) 1035kgs, and a 1973 VW 412LS Variant (85 bhp) 1130kgs, so any caravan/trailer purchased would form a combination with any of these vehicles.

However, finding out the maximum towing recommendation from VW for the Squareback is an issue.

 

[M5WJF]

I take that all back...just discovered this information from the Type 3 & 4 Club

Figures:-
Wheelbase 94.5" Track f/r 51.6"/53.2" Overall length 170.9" Height 57.9" Width 63.2" (64.6" with side parking lamps)
Weight Sedan 2227 lbs/1010 kg(unladen) 3109 lbs/1410 kg (laden)
Variant (Squareback) 2281 lbs/1035 kg(unladen) 3274 lbs/1485 kg (laden)
Trailer 1025 lbs (unbraked) 1433 lbs (braked)
Luggage Front compartment 6.5 cu ft (-1969) 7.8 cu ft (1970-)
Rear compartment Notchback 7 cu ft Fastback 12 cu ft
Variant (Squareback) 24.7 cu ft 42.4 cu ft (back seat folded)
Details extracted mainly from UK brochures; other variations were on sale elsewhere.

Seems maximum towing mass is 651kgs, but needs to be a braked trailer above 465kgs...interesting.

 

[emmerson]

way back in the dim and distant past I had a Commer coachbuilt camper which probably weighed around 1800kg.It had a 1500cc motor which possibly produced around 50bhp, so it was always underpowered.
However, nobody bothered too much then, but when I hooked up a four berth caravan of un-remebered make but bl**dy heavy, I needed 1st gear to get to junction 18 on the M4 eastbound!
I only towed it once..............!

 

[paws]

Hi M5WJF,
I really wouldn't worry over much about "rules of thumb" like 40BHP/ton or 85% or 1.25cwt./100cc.... or whatever... they are just a guide, no more and no less.
As long as you are are legal, and the load you intend to tow is sensible, in relation to your route, your vehicle, its condition, age and the drivers ability, then its largely an attitude of mind....

I looked up the max braked towing weight in the 1976 V W T2 owners handbook and its shown as 1.2 t You will have a good idea of the structural integrity of your vehicle, its condition and performance and how it handles when you load it to somewhere near its maximum ( without towing) and then you must make a judgement call on how you think it will perform when hanging an extra ton or so on the back!

There are folks around who believe that it's vital that everyone on the road travels at the maximum speed permitted by law at all times...

There are folks who believe that traveling any slower in any circumstances at all is anti social...contributes towards to accidents, road rage, and "holds up traffic"

I reckon it's more important to drive and tow, showing courtesy to all other users with a well matched outfit, on a route that is most suitable and carefully chosen.

So, Yes, take into account the rules of thumb when making your decisions but bear in mind that they often take no account of all the other factors, like RPM, power/torque curves and a whole host of other factors that need to be considered.
Enjoy your T2 ( if it is a T2)
Regards
paws

 

[M5WJF]

I've since found out that VW recommended in the 1970s that their Transporter Van should tow no more than 1000kg/1200kg for their 1600/2000 engines respectively, and that the maximum loading for the van itself is around 975kg.

On further research, the combination for the 70bhp 2000 engine should not exceed 3.5 tonnes, which works out at 20 bhp/tonne, so it seems 20 bhp/tonne is the VW recommendation for that period.

Interesting though, and the confusing differences in recommendation, or absence of recommendations from manufacturers probably forced the Caravan Club to come up with its own 40 bhp/tonne recommendation .

I'm going to try and find out when the CC issued this guidance to its members and the general public.

 

[M5WJF]

Good sound advice, thanks.
Oh it is a T2...

Hi M5WJF,
I really wouldn't worry over much about "rules of thumb" like 40BHP/ton or 85% or 1.25cwt./100cc.... or whatever... they are just a guide, no more and no less.
As long as you are are legal, and the load you intend to tow is sensible, in relation to your route, your vehicle, its condition, age and the drivers ability, then its largely an attitude of mind....

I looked up the max braked towing weight in the 1976 V W T2 owners handbook and its shown as 1.2 t You will have a good idea of the structural integrity of your vehicle, its condition and performance and how it handles when you load it to somewhere near its maximum ( without towing) and then you must make a judgement call on how you think it will perform when hanging an extra ton or so on the back!

There are folks around who believe that it's vital that everyone on the road travels at the maximum speed permitted by law at all times...

There are folks who believe that traveling any slower in any circumstances at all is anti social...contributes towards to accidents, road rage, and "holds up traffic"

I reckon it's more important to drive and tow, showing courtesy to all other users with a well matched outfit, on a route that is most suitable and carefully chosen.

So, Yes, take into account the rules of thumb when making your decisions but bear in mind that they often take no account of all the other factors, like RPM, power/torque curves and a whole host of other factors that need to be considered.
Enjoy your T2 ( if it is a T2)
Regards
paws

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello M5WJF

As others have pointed out the 40BHP per tonne is just a guideline, and it is indeed a very crude one at that. It was derived when most towcars were Petrol engined, without fuel injection and turbos, and all these things and the big increase in turbo diesel engines has made that recommendation look very much out of touch.

Obviously more powerful engines will usually allow an outfit to cruise at higher speeds, but that is not the only characteristic thats important to towers.

The ability to pull away from a standstill, low speed or up hills is affected more by torque than sheer power, and this is where diesels and especially turbo diesels win out.

Having an engine with a good torque figure is usually a good thing, but that torque has to be transmitted to the wheels through the gear box.

Now your T2 is based on a commercial van, and it will have the vans gear box. This means the box is likely to have a higher ratios (more engine revs to lower wheel rpm) compared to a car with the same engine, and means it can get away with an engine with less torque. The downside is it won't have such a high top speed, but hey this caravanning and is supposed to be a holiday.

If you find you are slower than most other traffic just be courteous and from time to time pull in or make it easy for following vehicles to pass.

 

[M5WJF]

The van does have higher ratios, but the same 1600 engine from an old Beetle, I think maximum torque of 82 ft/lbs or 111 N/m is hit at 3,000 rpm, and 50 bhp or 37.3 Kw is available at 4,000 rpm.

Cruising speeds are between 45mph to 55mph on the flat, without towing, so perhaps there's not much to worry about in considering an Eriba Puck Model with a maximum mass of 700kg and virtually traveling within the same hole through the air created by the T2.

I do have an engine swap planned, I have a 1700 to fit, and this will give me 66bhp at 4,000 rpm, and around 90 ft/lbs at 3,000, I'm told this is a worthwhile engine swap due to the 1700 being more reliable, better engineered, and the apparently extra 16 bhp will make a difference so I'm told by those who have driven both 1600 and 1700 models.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi M5WJF, quote" I'm going to try and find out when the CC issued this guidance to its members and the general public"
good luck but don't hold you breath while waiting . like any recommendation they stick to the highest safe denominator, as if set in stone, and will not explain why.
just like their 85% ratio recommendation for new towers, asked several times through the club why the recommendation [made in the 70's] was still relevant and how it was calculated [ there are about 6 ways to do it [all different] never had a single reply.
if it is any consolation as soon as you hang a trailer on the back the road speed limits decrease a great deal so unless you are going to tow over the Welsh mountains it wont make much difference.
we once set off from a site in Ullapool with the m/home after a stay and just as we were getting ready for the off, chug,chug,chug, a very old VW Devon went passed, sounded like the engine was going to jump out of the back any minute. we set off and headed south through Inverness to Fort William [about 125miles] and stopped for lunch.
while walking the dog deciding where to eat. chug,chug,chug, yep the old Devon camper same one. pulled on to the car park he had done the same journey as us but took only 15mins longer to do it. goes to show top speed is less important on minor roads, and no matter how long it takes getting there is the most important thing.
the T2 will be fine, for me I would leave the 1600 in unless there is something wrong with it. that engine is bullitt proof the reason they last so long I wouldn't agree the 1700 is more reliable more power yes but shorter shelf life.

 

[M5WJF]

I agree with or am fascinated by, and intrigued by your experiences regarding towing, and your insights into it, I must point out I used to tow LGV Trailers with an LGV Class 2 Licence in Off-road trucks, and have towed various trailers, camping, general purpose, agricultural sheep, boat, etc in the past, but never Caravans, so I'm not entirely wet behind the ears, yet still learning.

iI'm going to have to disagree about the VW 1700/1800 or 2000 type 4 suitcase engines having a shorter shelf life than the VW 1200/1300/1600 type 1 upright engines, this is not true, and I'll explain why.

The 1700 Type 4 engine is supposed to last three times longer than the 1600 type 1 engine, the air cooling is more efficient by 25%, and rather than the cooling fan being driven by a belt and pulley off the crankshaft the fan on a type 4 engine is a part of the crankshaft pulley itself, with a re-designed and more compact engine. Also the oil reservoir holds a litre more, which is significant when the 1600 only takes 2.5 litres. On top of that the type 1 motor only has an oil strainer, no oil filter, where as the type 4 has both, this is another reason why the Type 4 lasts three times longer than the type 1.

The type 4 engine I'm going to fit is currently fitted to another 412 I bought for spares, but the engine is actually out of an early Type 2a Campervan from 1972, so it actually survived life in a Type 2, then had a life in a 412, and will now be going into a late Bay T2b. This is what happened to a lot of 411/412 cars when they got old, they were scrapped and the more powerful. more reliable type 4 engines replaced the type 1 1600 engines in Type 2's.

The type 4 engine 1700/1800 in type 4 cars (what the engine is named after), was a more powerful 80/85 bhp than those fitted to campers, 66/68 bhp, all had balanced con rods, which the type 1 does not, and the pistons and heads were different to those found in the cars, to provide torque lower down the rev range in Type 2 vans. The 2000 type 4 fitted to Type 2 Vans was built more for torque than power, and was a de-tuned 70 bhp.

The type 4 80/85 bhp engine was a standard fitment in the Porsche 914, which came in two models, the 914/4 which had a VW Type 4 1700/1800, and 914/6 which had a Porsche 2 litre Flat Six fitted.

I even have the crossover design type 1 pancake engine in my 1973 1600 Variant, which is a twin carb oil bath air cleaner, with a modified tin ware and re-positioned oil cooler, and the fan is a part of the crankshaft pulley, like the type 4 engine. This is more reliable since if the drive belt snaps on the type 1 engine, all engine cooling is lost rapidly, where as on the type 3 car, and type 4 411/412 cars, and type 2 vans with type 4 engines fitted, having the drive belt fail means only that the generator or alternator drive stops, engine cooling is unaffected.

Type 1 engines are extremely reliable, that is true, but their weakness is drive belt engine cooling, the type 4 is a vast improvement in both removing this weakness, and improving engine cooling and lubrication, they are actually over engineered for the job.

If you want to know anything about air cooled VW engines just let me know.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi, you obviously know more about them than I do, all I know is I had a 1600 type 1 bought it with 70.000 miles on the clock kept it for 8years [and towed with it] scrapped it when the floor disintigrated at 145.000miles. same engine never missed a beat never broke down, and when the van went the engine ended up into a mates beetle. he was restoring and it is still running. overhauled yes but the same engine now done [last time I saw him 210.000 miles]. I call that bullitt proof.

 

[M5WJF]

I've heard similar stories, they are indeed bullet proof, the RAF use them in Powered Gliders, they are also used for power generation, one of the plus points for the type 1 are the cheap parts, and by that I mean the main expense every few years - heat exchangers, on a type 1 you can pick these up for £65 a side, on the type 4 these are £210 a side, plus they are a little more complicated in terms of heating, which was improved by adding electric fan assistance, known as a snail fan on the type 2 vans, and a similar one (which i've found incredibly fiddly to fit recently) is on the 411/412.

In addition, the patents for type 1 engines ran out long ago, and the market for chinese mass produced parts for the engine has significantly reduced the cost of parts, although you have to be wary of quality, and must buy German when it comes to safety critical items, or things that should last 30 to 40 years. Patents for type 4 I believe are still owned by VAG.

However, on the 411/412 there is a petrol eberspacher as well, which has a timer to come on for 15 minutes, so on a cold morning you can get in a warm and toasty car. I understand these were fitted to Type 2 Campers in the US/Canada, but I've yet to find one fitted to a van in the UK.

As I've mentioned heating, one of the most common heating systems fitted to VW Campers is the Propex HS2000, which gets through a 907 Butane Bottle in 19 hours, but also draws about 1.4 Amps during operation. They retail around £430, I've been very lucky and have dropped on a Trumatic E2400 for £150, which has a higher output, but has a lower partial output, effectively extending the life of a 907 to perhaps 27 hours, and only drawing 0.6 Amps. Not sure when this will be fitted, as I intend to remove the belly pans from the Type 2 and fit it under the floor with some weather protection.

Incidentally, I'm not sure how long ago you scrapped the Bay, I remember I sold mine in 1992 for £1200 and that included spare heat exchangers and a full awning...recently I saw the same van sold for £12k, and they are getting more and more expensive now that production has stopped in Mexico, I should think £15k at least.

I bought my current van nearly two years ago for £8k, its probably now worth £10k (needs some work), if only we all had the foresight back then...oh well.

 

[M5WJF]

Just had a new clutch, lots of gearbox seals, and a tow bar fitted to the 1973 Type 3 1600A Variant (Squareback), the car went in for a replacement exhaust, one of the studs sheared and it required the engine out to replace this stud.

Its a fairly easy job to remove an engine on one of these, but since it was out, we noticed the clutch down to the rivets, the seals leaking on the gearbox, and worse, the bodywork above the rear bumper mounts was rusting away.

So welding required as well, and a complete respray of the engine bay was also in order.

As the bumper had to come off, I have replacements, but also a tow bar I bought two years ago to fit, so five hours refurbishing of the tow bar later, that was fitted too.

Turned out the broken stud eventually cost me £470 in associated work, such is life.

However, I now need to add towing electrics.

Kerb Weight is 1035kg, maximum laden weight can be 1485kg, it also states that the maximum load is 410kg, which seems to correlate with the tongue weight. However, it also states a roof rack of 165kg load can also be fitted to the roof gutters, so I can only assume that this would also be subtracted from the maximum load.

Also I was under the impression that it had a 54 bhp engine, when in fact it's a 65 bhp engine EDIT: apparently it is 54 bhp DIN, for some reason the ancillaries use up 11 bhp somewhere.

The manufacture recommended towing weights are 490kg unbraked, and no more than 800kg braked, tongue weight (assuming tow ball loading) 25kg - 40kg, so this gives few options in terms of caravans, ha

I do love old cars, since found updated towing weights for the Type 3 Variant, apparently it can tow more than I thought, hence this has been edited.

 

[seth1]

Dont like to be a kill joy but good luck with that one.Ever heard of a saying,"mechanical sympathy" well try giving it some.Not a chance that will cope with a caravan behind it,at any speed.The killer will be the motorway gradients.

 

[RayS]

Not qualified to get into the technicalities of VWs, but I don't see too much problem providing you keep it legal.
Back in the 1960's the 'popular' caravans such as Sprite Alpine and Musketeer or Thompson were built on steel girder chassis with cart springs and were pretty heavy for their size. They were still towed with the then family cars eg Cortina 1500s which may have had moderate bhp but generally pretty low torque, and a peaky curve at that. I remember one trip back from John o Groats with an Eccles Topaz / Cortina GT when I barely ever got into top gear due to meeting very strong SW winds. 100bhp/litre was only seen on the racetrack in those days.
Then as now balance and correct noseweight were all important for stability.

More recently, doing most of my towing in Europe, I am frequently surprised at the mis-match (in our terms) of many Continental outfits, with modest Renault / Seat etc. hauling heavy German vans which would have us thinking Sorrento / Disco. Doing 5 or 6 thousand miles a year for the past 13 years I have yet to see a caravan overturned or involved in an accident, although one or two have been snaking a bit uncomfortably.

Perhaps we are all a bit too cautious ?

 

[M5WJF]

Interesting perspective, as it happens, mechanical sympathy is a priority, along with economy, when you drive an Historic Vehicle.

I've been accused by other owners in owners clubs of putting the car under too much stress by never changing gear from 3rd to 4th above 45mph, generally no higher than 35/40mph depending on the road, and similar engine speeds for lower gears. One owner even suggested he changes from 3rd at 65mph... Yet the manufacturer recommends never exceeding 4200rpm if you want 100,000 mile longevity from the engine, also recommended for economical motoring is never changing from 3rd above 35mph... With average fuel consumption officially 29-34mpg.

Well the car has had its original ball joints and clutch replaced at 105,000 miles on the original engine, which isn't showing signs of wear (touch wood), with no smoke at start up, no oil leaks, and less than 250ml oil consumption every 1,000 miles. I've managed 43mpg on a motorway journey, and 38mpg over a 200 mile run over mixed roads, including some really steep hills, without any motorways. So it really has nothing to do with luck.

As regards towing with this car, generally I suspect the majority of tows will be with a 400kg camping trailer, but I may decide on either a teardrop caravan, Eriba Puck / 120GT, folding caravan, or even a trailer tent, I'm undecided, but rest assured, whatever gets pulled along will manage motorway gradients.

Dont like to be a kill joy but good luck with that one.Ever heard of a saying,"mechanical sympathy" well try giving it some.Not a chance that will cope with a caravan behind it,at any speed.The killer will be the motorway gradients.

 

[M5WJF]

Interesting that you mention the mismatches on the European Continent in terms of combinations, I read something on the Internet about very significant mismatches driven at speed in Australia, although they appear to have a high accident rate.

As a former Paramedic I have probably seen more caravan crashes than most, but the worst day I've known for encountering these was about five years ago whilst on holiday, driving to Bodmin on the A30, towing a sheep trailer loaded with Scouting Equipment to a Scout Camp using my Land Rover Discovery.

It was also a windy day, and I was aware that the twin wheeled trailer I was towing was heavier than the Land Rover, so on those sections I kept speeds down to 40-45mph while descending hills, and no more than 50mph even on Motorways / Dual Carriageways.

There were severely snaking caravans on both sides of the carriageway, but not until the A30 did things get a bit serious, I passed two accidents on the opposite carriageway, one where a combination had left the road and was on its side in a ditch, and another where the entire carriageway was littered in broken plastic with the parked car on its wheels towing what looked like a low sled, which turned out to be the floor of the disintegrated caravan.

Certainly these images slowed a few people towing caravans going in the same direction as me, but eventually they accelerated away, some of them snaking.

We pulled off the A30 at the bottom of a hill to access a Little Chef for lunch, but on rejoining the A30 and looking right as we used the slip road to join, there was a car upside down with caravan on its side at the bottom of the hill, it had obviously just happened as people were getting out of the car, but the entire road was blocked and that was the end of their holiday.

No one was hurt, but some very lucky people indeed.

 

[seth1]

As you said "without motorways"
I agree it will tow a suitable sized caravan,but at what speed?Remember your on a motorway,and with respect these vehicles solo are not sparkling.As regards to economy,this would be the last thing on my mind and which really none of us can do much about.I hope it goes well for you though.