13 pin problem

[colin-yorkshire]

Surely having the wiring put back to how it was is a far safer way to be wired. Stop vehicle,power cuts to caravan. stop at services no need to unplug no fear of battery going flat.If its just a case of stopping to use the loo in the dark surely you could fit a battery operated light. Now I have another point as I sit and read the Regulation GafferBill has posted. If and I mean if should there be a fire and Insurers found wiring was incorrect where would you stand.
Sir Roger

no, yes, and no, in that order,
if the wiring is supposed to like that, re, as instructed by Bailey, then the [normal way to wire it] would in fact be wrong, it is only when converting the plug to 13pin the difference is significant [as baileys with a 13pin plug] would be wired that way as standard. if in fact changing the supply to the relay so it works as it should it would still conform to the regulations as the relay cuts the power to the van once the engine is started. as the regulation quoted by Bill says it is to protect the towing vehicle from malfunction from radio interference, from the van while towing, it would still do this.

if like mine, there was no power at all once the plug is connected there is no other choice but to fit a battery operated light in the loo, [this is exactly what I did]. the problem you describe could well happen in vans that have a manual switch for the habitation relay as this could be forgotten after a stop.

altering the the feed point of the relay would not affect the function of the switch in fact it would make the operation more efficient as there is no alteration to it's design, and therefore no more risk of a fire than if it was wired the other way.
if you understand how the wiring system works, you will see there are two ways to get power to the internal electrics 1. from the leisure battery or 2. from the towing vehicle once stopped. the old way uses the van battery and the new from the towing vehicle, both are used on caravans, so both meet the regulations.

 

[robf1234]

hi just to get things straight i have the car wired as it should be ,,and the van wired as it should be i have not changed any wires to get the lights to work in the van ,,while the plug is in the car ,,i had them 9+10 ter in the caravan plug, not the car socket ,,,crossed, ,,,the diagram from bailey says ter 9=interior lights ter 10= fridge ,,why would it say lights for ter 9 if there was no power in the van with the plug in ?

 

[ProfJohnL]

As with so many caravan related issues the management of 12V power to a caravan and within the caravan has been subject to changes over the years

The Caravan Clubs's technical department has published this document

http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/1022790/towbar-wiring-mo.pdf.
Whilst this document is not the controlling document I believe it does interpret the underlying regulations accurately.

The document describes the various wiring schemes, and how they have changed with time.

The current underlying regulations are ISO 11446-1:2012. Unfortunately this document seems to be accessible only by paying a fee.

 

[xtrailman]

You could always fit a switch in the permanent 12 volt feed to the 13 pin socket

if the system is working correctly it should not be required.
because there will be a balance between the van battery and car battery so where would the power go. the smart relay cuts the power to the fridge, the charge circuit only works when the engine is running, and the habitation relay cut power to the rest.

Colin I don't think you fully understand how the system works?
Have a read through this link.

http://www.caravantalk.co.uk/community/topic/105447-understanding-caravan-and-towcar-electrics/

 

[colin-yorkshire]

You could always fit a switch in the permanent 12 volt feed to the 13 pin socket

if the system is working correctly it should not be required.
because there will be a balance between the van battery and car battery so where would the power go. the smart relay cuts the power to the fridge, the charge circuit only works when the engine is running, and the habitation relay cut power to the rest.

Colin I don't think you fully understand how the system works?
Have a read through this link.

]http://www.caravantalk.co.uk/community/topic/105447-understanding-caravan-and-towcar-electrics/

http://www.caravantalk.co.uk/commun...standing-caravan-and-towcar-electrics/[/quote
no thanks, better things to do on a sunday morning the quote you used was to answer a simple comment in the most simplistic terms.
there is never a need to fit an extra switch in the 12v van system as suggested.
because the systems used are or should be automatic without the need for manual input.
on cars that do not have a dedicated caravan plug connector, you [or the tow bar fitter] has to wire a separate 2.5mm with a 20amp fuse cable direct from the cars battery to get a permanent feed wire to the socket. however this single wire will not full fill all the requirements needed to supply the van with 12v power. so instead of going direct to the plug it goes through a smart relay, that has one input and 2 or 3 outputs, one continues the power out to the socket as a permanent 12v supply to pin 9 the other is switched so it is only live when the supply voltage increases like when the engines running, "note" [on some relays the threshold can be adjusted via a screw] ,this goes to pin 10 and supplies power to the fridge,
two points here, 1. the 13pin socket has 3 earth wires one each from the road lights, 12v return, and fridge, all are white or have a white trace this is to prevent pin burning that used to happen on the 7pin configuration, and 2. inside the smart relay it has diodes so there is no reverse current,, so there is always a balance in the circuit.

at the van end the fridge supply only gets power when the threshold of the smart relay is reached, ie, when the engine is running in some vans this supply is used to trigger the habitation relay that switches the supplied permanent power to either the vans 12v circuits off or to the charging circuit on effectively only supplying power to the charge circuit when the engine is running, as refered to earlier by Woodentop, although not all vans use this setup..
if that system is used, when the the habitation relay is tripped via the fridge power supply, it cuts all the power to the vans 12v systems and diverts it to the charge system so in fact only supplying power to the charge system [ when the engine is running ].
this a more detailed version of the comment posted. so please tell me what part of the system is it I do not understand.

 

[xtrailman]

Better things to do?
So why the pointless long post.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

Better things to do?
So why the pointless long post.

because a log post that explains to fellow members [who might not know] how the systems work, in preference to other members who do respond to a question without making remarks about previous contributions is not pointless.
however reading an article that tells you what you already know is.

 

[xtrailman]

I'm sorry you feel the need to be insulting.

But the fact is you keep posting information that isn't strictly correct.
Even your last post has errors, I strongly advise you to read the supplied link, then you may learn something.

 

[SirRogerFFS]

I thought A Regulation was something that should be adhered to. It, would appear from the first post regarding the wiring on the Bailey ..Damian who is a service engine replied stating the operation was correct and Gafferbill posted the Regulations and now appears that everybody except the poster is wrong.I think the Moderators should lock this post before somebody gets really abusive

 

[colin-yorkshire]

it's not insulting, it is a genuine observation, :woohoo: some members try there best to be helpful, and answer questions to the best of their ability. while others just sit back and let the conversation take place without any input whatsoever. and then jump in and post comments about what has been said, without adding to content of the thread.
one can easily see who is who by the thank you's given by other members.
if you have any input that is of value please go ahead, point out the errors get involved inform the rest of us with your vast knowledge of caravan electrics. we don't all read from text books and post links to make a point.
I say again I have no intention of reading any article now or in the future, I read dozens while trying to sort out my own problems.
I no longer have a van, and to be honest don't really know why I bother with them now much of the interest has passed.
as the Dragons would say" I'm out" it is time to move on. however if you know how to rebuild a 1957 BSA B31 gearbox with most of the obsolete parts missing B) I would be more than interested to learn. got a link for that!!
thank you all, and good night.

 

[ProfJohnL]

From a dim and distant memory I recall hearing one of the the reasons the habitation relay turns all 12V ancillaries of inside the caravan when plugged into the car.

There had been a fire at a petrol filling station involving a car towing a caravan. The driver had spilt some fuel which proceeded to evaporate and the vapour found its way inside the caravan. Some piece of electrical equipment either turned on or off, and caused a spark that ignited the vapour.

By using the habitation relay to disable all electrical items this prevents the same thing from happening.

So to answer the OP's question, it is designed that way, and sorry there is no work round except to remove the electrical connection plug from the car.

 

[xtrailman]

it's not insulting, it is a genuine observation, :woohoo: some members try there best to be helpful, and answer questions to the best of their ability. while others just sit back and let the conversation take place without any input whatsoever. and then jump in and post comments about what has been said, without adding to content of the thread.
one can easily see who is who by the thank you's given by other members.
if you have any input that is of value please go ahead, point out the errors get involved inform the rest of us with your vast knowledge of caravan electrics. we don't all read from text books and post links to make a point.
I say again I have no intention of reading any article now or in the future, I read dozens while trying to sort out my own problems.
I no longer have a van, and to be honest don't really know why I bother with them now much of the interest has passed.
as the Dragons would say" I'm out" it is time to move on. however if you know how to rebuild a 1957 BSA B31 gearbox with most of the obsolete parts missing B) I would be more than interested to learn. got a link for that!!
thank you all, and good night.

The OP question was answered by Damian early on.

Why you keep insisting that you don't read links is a little weird when you do read long posts, and even post them.

Yes I don't have many thank you's so you must be very popular, but that does not makes your posts accurate.

 

[Damian]

OK people, I think the topic has been discussed enough at this point and is heading to a conflict of personalities and heading downhill.
Time to stop the personality bits and stick to the topic.

 

[SirRogerFFS]

Off topic here but a reply to Colin-Yorkshire .Colin Try this one www.srmclassicbikes.com I hope this will help you .
Sir Roger .
Sorry back to topic now.

 

[Gafferbill]

When commenting on caravan electrics then you always have to take into account ...What did the towbar fitter do?

The caravan wiring will be to the manufactures specification for that model year but they will have no control over the outfit's tow car or its wiring.
It has already been said that there has been several different UK wiring standards over the years but the wiring of tow car electrics by independent fitters has always been prone to variables!

Modern caravans are fitted with habitation relays.....these are electrically operated switches that isolate all but fridge and battery charging circuits in the caravan when they received a +ve 12v feed to the switching relay.
This +ve feed to the habitation relay is supplied from the tow car and as I understand it this should only be live when the tow car engine is running or the ignition switched on.
Wired in this way. ....then the caravan electrics will work without removing any connecting plug when the vehicle's engine is stopped.

Should this +ve feed to the habitation relay be wired to a permanent live feed from the tow car by the towbar fitter .......then to get the electrics in the caravan to work will require the removal of the connecting plug.

So everyone could be right

 

[colin-yorkshire]

OK people, I think the topic has been discussed enough at this point and is heading to a conflict of personalities and heading downhill.
Time to stop the personality bits and stick to the topic.

yeah thanks for that Damian. :S . the fact of the matter is members should not criticise other members posts without the evidence to back up their comments. that is where any conflict will arise.

edit.
and thanks Roger i will look at their parts list, getting a bit weary of spending many hours at auto jumbles by now.

 

[xtrailman]

The evidence was backed up in the link you will not read.