2012 Elddis Shamal - Leaking

[EmmaM]

Has anyone else had problems?
Having just spent in excess of £20K on a brand new Elddis Shamal for my husbands retirement we were absolutely shocked to find in November water literaly dripping onto the front seat. We have water marks on the roof, mould in the cupboards and stains on upolstery. I could have cried when we discovered it.
We have since taking it back to the supplying dealer and after 4 weeks have been told by Elddis they will repair it. I have totally lost faith in the Elddis product and to be honest do not want the caravan back.
Elddis have made such a thing about there SOLID construction and industry leading warranty. All I can say is ours didnt even last 7 months !!
Have any other members has issues with Elddis?
Can anyone suggest what we can do (we have worked all our lives, saved bought our first new caravan), we feel so let down?
Possibly a warning to other members to stay clear of Elddis

 

[MichaelE]

Sorry to hear about your leaking van, if the dealer does his job and looks after you your van will come back as good as new, if you still have stains on areas then reject the repair until its completed to your satisfaction.
Your van isnt made using Elddis's solid contruction as this has been introduced in 2013 year.
Im on my 4th Elddis and none have leaked, at present Baileys are having damp issues in the front locker on about 8 out of 10 Unicorns , so things do go wrong but its how they are resolved is the important thing?

 

[EmmaM]

I agree, it is important how it is put right. A month waiting to then be told what's wrong is not a good start. Good communication is key.
Lets hope my next post is complementing Elddis on the repair and customer care (I do hope so). Rather than warning others to avoid.
Sales of Goods Act 1979, "fit for purpose" and "merchantable quality" are what I would remind members to be aware of.
Please Elddis show some outstanding customer care and reassure others that when things go wrong you are the Manufacturer going the extra mile to put it right.

I will keep you all posted!!

 

[Willi-Wonti]

My last van was a compass
We had problems with a leak showing on its 1st service, so it went back to the dealer who resealed the rear backside.
On the 2nd service at a local dealer it was still showing signs of damp, so on the instruction of the selling dealer we took it to a local repairer. When he undid the awning rail the side sprang out & had to be re fixed & sealed. This was the last straw for us so we bought a Burstner caravan from the NEC

 

[ProfJohnL]

Sales of Goods Act 1979, "fit for purpose" and "merchantable quality" are what I would remind members to be aware of.
Please Elddis show some outstanding customer care and reassure others that when things go wrong you are the Manufacturer going the extra mile to put it right.

I will keep you all posted!!

Hello Emma,
Sorry to read about your leaky caravan. I totally agree its a massive investment and to find it let down by such a fundamental issue is really unacceptable.
I must remind you that Sale of Goods only actually applies to your contract with the seller. In a caravan purchase the manufacture is not involved in SoGA. However if you arehaving the repairs done under SoGA, then the seller is the main contractor and the manufacture becomes a sub contractor to the seller.
But if the manufacture is repairing the problem under the Manufactuers Guarantee then SoGA is not involved.

What ever I hope it gets resolved to your satisfaction.

 

[EmmaM]

Thanks Prof.
Again I agree. So one assumes the warranty conditions on the Elddis website are meant for dealers not end users (those that buy the product). As you state the contract is between the buyer of the new caravan and the selling dealer.

Maybe we need to ask dealers for their terms and conditions.

As stated earlier it has not been a pleasant experience thus far but I am hopeful that the issue will be resolved to a fully satisfactory conclusion.

Keep you all posted !!!

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Emma

Very sorry to hear of your problems.

A number of remedies are open to you.

1. Do you have any Legal Expenses insurance that could help you?

2. Have you written a letter to the dealer setting out in detail why ,in your opinion , the caravan is not of merchantable quality?

3. Any repairs must be perfect and show no trace of the defect.

4. If you would like me to draft a letter for you please ask Parksy to send you my e-mail address.

 

[otherclive]

Emma,
I can imagine your sense of shock and disappointment, the same thing happened to me when we bought our Bailey as the first brand new van. It had received lots of praise from the press re its high integrity body shell etc. Within 1 year it had a complete new front end, and by year 3 the rear end had also been renewed. These were to address damp caused by a manufacturing process problem. Howver our dealer was very good and ensured that the van was temporarily sealed to prevent further deterioration. The work was carried out to tie in with our schedules and was in fact a big improvement over the original factory finish as the dealers staff were not part of a production line. The van is now nearing 8 years old and has been trouble-free with no further damp problems, and whilst we have twice nearly traded it in for a new one, we finaly decided that the new ones were geting too heavy, had limited payload and we liked the full length lounge and I dare say that should we have a damp problem in the future the money saved by not buying another new van will more than cover any repairs.

Good luck.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Emma,

Neither the dealers terms and conditions or the manufacturers guarantee can reduce any of your statutory rights under SoGA.

I have to observe that if the problems you have found were evident within 6 month of purchase, then SoGA automatically assumes the problems or underlying causes were present at the time of sale and thus the dealer cannot avoid liability, unless they can prove/show that on the balance of probability (the civil legal test)the problem or causes were NOT present.

Unfortunately, as you tell us the problem was found in month 7 you are just outside that legal limit, and now the onus is on you to prove that on the balance of probability the problem or causes were present if you wish to pursue a claim under SoGA.

With such a major issue and it occurred just outside 6 months I would think you may have a better than average chance of showing the problems were there at the point of sale, and thus the dealer has some liability. Whether you want to pursue it is of course up to you, but I strongly suggest you seek professional legal advice.

I must also observe, that a complete professional repair carried out by the manufacture on such a young caravan is likely to result in a van that is every bit as good as any similar van of the same age. Using the manufacturers guarantee may be a much simpler and less adversarial experience than using SoGA in this instance.

 

[MarkAger]

Sadly you're not alone with a leaking Elddis, my parents bought a new Hurricane in 91 and en route to France from the dealers, water came in through the front windows so by the time of reaching Dover, the brand new upholstery was soaked. Elddis passed the blame to the dealer who should have checked their factory inspected caravan and found the defect! 2nd Hurricane EX200 new in 1997 and now having been kept for this time, is totally damp and not sellable. So although old, the Swifts, Crown and Abbey they have had prior to these Elddis's, have never leaked. Incidentally, all the caravans have had annual services.
The only Elddis that never leaked or went wrong was the new Tornado they bought in 1973. This time, I can't see over the years where the progress has been made when it now seems they still have water ingress problems.
So sorry to hear of the problem but not surprised and I do wish you well.

 

[Raywood]

This is just another example of poor workmanship in the caravan industry. The problem with gettingh rid is that it does seem all manufacturers have the same problem and you could just as easily find you buy the same trouble with another manufacturer.
Our last caravan was an Eldiss and in five years never leaked so they are not all bad. I would have the repair carried out and then see how you feel.

 

[ProfJohnL]

......all the caravans have had annual services.
(manufacture) passed the blame to the dealer who should have checked their factory inspected caravan and found the defect!
So sorry to hear of the problem but not surprised and I do wish you well.

Hello Mark,
I've highlighted three parts of your post to comment on. please dont take my replies personnaly as they are aimed at the frustration causing antics of the caravan industry not you.

I fail to see how an annual services are going to stop leaks. Unless the service includes dismanting the caravan to inspect in minutia, all a service agent will do is report if they find a leak so it's allready happened. The dealers response to leaks will always be reactive not proactive, a point now condoned by Bailey who have removed their requiment for a third year tensioning check on their Alutech system.

The caravan dealer is legally responsible to sell only good products under SoGA, so in that respect they should have a system to ensure their products are fully functional - now I'm not condoning the manufactures stance in claiming the dealer should have sorted it out, That is a deplorable statement: How a manufacturer can beleive it is good business to allow potentially defective products out of their gates due to their failure to get quality under proper control beggars belief. Many industrial studies have shown it is not cost effective to allow faulty products out of factory, simple faults cost a lot more to put right compared to doing it right first time in the production cycle.

Its a very damming inditment on the state of the industry if customers have come to accept leaks as unexeptional event. As retail customers we are entiled (by law) to expect products that work and are durable enough for their intended purpose. We shouldn't be just accepting the status quo, we should be challenging dealers to supply products that work right first time. and the dealers should also bring legal pressure to bear on the manufacturers to improve their quality. The status quo is not an acceptable state of affairs.

Not withstanding the recent developments over the last three years, the industry has had 35 years to resolve the leak problems on the generic construction techniques, and failed to do so within that time.

I know I am highly critical of the industry and their dreadful quality performance, but until the manufacturers really take stock of how their manufacturing failures affect end users, such as loss of accessability, loss of product value, cost of repairs, travel and time, inconvenience, frustration, anguish, anger, and the list goes on........... the same and new problems will continue to arise.

Happy Christmas and New Year

 

[Raywood]

It does seem time that manufacturers realised that not only should their products not leak but when they do they need to act promptly. The appearance of this sort of criticism on the internet must cost them sales and as far as I can see from the forums only Coachman are realy proactive when problems arise. Before the introduction of the internet problems were probably easily covered up and the unlucky owners could only tell a few people of the problems but now they can tell ther world.
If a problem arises whether it is a leak or whatever, the customer is entitled to this being remedied promptly and to an acceptable standard. If the industry wants to regain customer confidence they should put a sensible time limit on warranty repairs being completed and offer to replace any caravan with serious leaks. The first manufacturer to do this might just make a killing.
I doubt you can always blame a dealer for not spotting a leak on a new caravan as if it had just arrived from the factory the problem area would still be dry. Our last two caravans were both built to order so they were only at the dealers for days and if there had been a water leak problem it would have shown upfar later.

 

[Surfer]

......all the caravans have had annual services.
(manufacture) passed the blame to the dealer who should have checked their factory inspected caravan and found the defect!
So sorry to hear of the problem but not surprised and I do wish you well.

I fail to see how an annual services are going to stop leaks. Unless the service includes dismanting the caravan to inspect in minutia, all a service agent will do is report if they find a leak so it's allready happened. The dealers response to leaks will always be reactive not proactive, a point now condoned by Bailey who have removed their requiment for a third year tensioning check on their Alutech system.

I agree with your statement about services and leaks as a service may only negate the extent of the damage. If you never had a caravan in for a service from the date of purchase and 2 1/2 years or longer and found damp, I wonder how it could be handled as it would be an inherent fault from day one. Until it is challenged in a court of law, I guess we will not know the answer. A win in a court room would be a big wake up call for the industry!

 

[Raywood]

I

I agree with your statement about services and leaks as a service may only negate the extent of the damage. If you never had a caravan in for a service from the date of purchase and 2 1/2 years or longer and found damp, I wonder how it could be handled as it would be an inherent fault from day one. Until it is challenged in a court of law, I guess we will not know the answer. A win in a court room would be a big wake up call for the industry!

I think you would have problems in pursuing this. The defence has to be that early discovery would have resulted in a far lower cost and at best you would recover only a small proportion of the costs based on early discovery values..

 

[Surfer]

I

I agree with your statement about services and leaks as a service may only negate the extent of the damage. If you never had a caravan in for a service from the date of purchase and 2 1/2 years or longer and found damp, I wonder how it could be handled as it would be an inherent fault from day one. Until it is challenged in a court of law, I guess we will not know the answer. A win in a court room would be a big wake up call for the industry!

I think you would have problems in pursuing this. The defence has to be that early discovery would have resulted in a far lower cost and at best you would recover only a small proportion of the costs based on early discovery values..

Not really as you paid £xxx for said caravan expecting it to last at least years due to prcie paid etc. Plus the fact that it matters not when leak was discovered as the leak should not have occured in the first place!

 

[plotter]

I am suprised that nobody has mentioned one of your most powerful lines of 'attack' namely the Consumer Credit Act,if you paid any or all of the cost,maybe deposit by credit card for at least £100 then the card company is jointly and severaly liable and as such they need to get involved and sort out the problem

 

[otherclive]

Surfer you will not be able to pursue such a situation as the maker specifies an annual service and damp check. By not carrying out such checks and then finding damp after 2.5-3 years you have not followed the makers recommendations and by allowing damp to be present for longer than may have been the case had you had annual checks you would have increased the repair costs to the dealer/maker. So I very much doubt that you would get any redress, or even deserve any.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Whether Surfer's proposition would stand up in court may be open to debate, but the underlying facet of this is that the caravan manufacturers have designed a product that they believe should be leak free. And in practice some caravans remain leak free for many years, which goes some way to proving the design can be successful if manufactured correctly. Presumably this is the reason the manufacturers have continued with the same basic construction method for so long.

So if the design is adequate, the fact that some caravans do leak means the manufacture is not maintaining an acceptable level of manufacturing consistency (Or quality Control).

That failing is actually recognised by the manufacture if they instruct a caravan should be checked for leaks at any predetermined interval in their guarantee T&C's.

So not only does the manufacture know they have a problem with consistency, they actually make the consumer pay for the privilege of having their incompetence monitored during the services. Such checks should be free of charge to the customer.

The argument that has been set out where completing the annual check can limit the damage caused by a leak. This is somewhat missing the point. The leak should not be there in the first place!

However if the customer expects the legally responsible person or organisation to remedy the fault, the customer does have a responsibility to prevent the condition to continue such that it exacerbates the damage or collateral issues, so annual checks are a reasonable method of monitoring a situation, but they should be free.

Most caravans are sold through dealerships, so the customer contract of sale is with a retailer not the manufacturer, so the manufactures has no statutory legal responsibility to the end user, which is why it is sometimes difficult to get a manufacturer to respond to leak issues.

This dislocation of responsibility makes it very difficult to force manufacturers to change their policies and practices toward end user customer satisfaction.

One possible way may be to take a class action against one manufacturer which acts to clarify the law. This might cause all manufactures to review their approach to the subject, but such an action is very very difficult to orchestrate and has no guarantee of success.

So the only proven method is to rigorously pursue the retailer through SoGA, and hope that retailers in turn pursue the manufactures through through their own contractual arrangements.

Perhaps we should be lobbying our MP's to introduce legislation whereby manufactures of commonly faulty products are obligated to end users even if there is no contractual obligation between the manufacture and the user.

 

[Parksy]

.............Perhaps we should be lobbying our MP's to introduce legislation whereby manufactures of commonly faulty products are obligated to end users even if there is no contractual obligation between the manufacture and the user.

You have made a very good point Prof, the reason that manufacturers do not appear to maintain a broadly acceptable level of manufacturing consistency may well be that they can offload their core responsibility on to their dealer network.
We ought to be able to come up with a template letter (or Email) with which to lobby our MP's so that eventually someone would sit up and take notice.
Caravan manufacturing processes have improved over the past ten years but comments on caravan related internet forums show that problems still exist with no real prospect of any manufacturer led improvement.
The internet has empowered consumers to the extent that it could be possible for a consumer led improvement so that the damp or substandard caravan would no longer be released for sale.