4x4

[Lord Braykewynde]

...... then again perhaps not :O(

 

[cris_408518]

Morning your Lordship.

I think I have it right

I was just commenting re Gio's comment against an earlier post I made.

Just a pleasant non confrontational reply re Geordies rights and peoples personal choices!

Do you think I could get a CD plate for my car and van ;-)

 

[sparkes]

Cris is right

Bigger cars are safer to the occupants and give a better field of view. I have both the Discovery and an estate car. I love the discovery because it feels safe, sure footed and more relaxed than the estate.

I tow with the discovery because it has a better %age value than the Estate and gives loads of pull when needed.

I for one will not get rid of the discovery regardless of increases in Tax. If it becomes too expensive then the Estate will go and we will use th money it frees up to continue to use the 4x4 to tow with. This will mean that the discovery will also be used for everything else including the school run.

The people who do use 4x4 as status symbols will also continue to use them as they will be more of a symbol of wealth. So all in all, increasing the cost of running a 4x4 by taxing it will result in thee being more on the road, more of the time.

Also, I cannot see how the government can ring fence the 4x4's. any tax increase will have to be on emissions and engine size. This will hit the caravan industry hardest as we are the group of users who have bigger engines than most. Ring fencing 4x4's will be not be allowed as it does not allow free choice and will hit farmers etc. The EU will not allow that.

So, when you start to complain about 4x4's. Please remember that they have the same engine size and emissions as many of the cars we see towing caravans. Do you really want to see our hobby hit so hard? Me, I can afford the tax, but many cannot and that makes me feel sick to the stomach. Sick that because some people do not like what others drive some will have to give up the hobby we all love so much!

Steve

PS, it does not matter what you drive. All that matters is that we are a group of people who love to caravan. Forget the opinions and get out there while you still can afford to

 

[CliveV]

I had not thought about the tyre situation cris.

Even tho' I mentioned my friend Mike's incredible 10 to 12 thousand miles only on the front tyres of his Carlton I never thought it through regards the tyre mountain such wear produces.

Given that 60K miles on a set of 4x4 tyres is the norm this would mean about 5 sets of front and probably a back set as well on the Carlton - 12 tyres in all compared to just 4 - Three times the "tyre mountain"!

The cost was about

 

[cris_408518]

One of the funniest thing've come across is a whinger I know on about a neighbour with a 4x4 and a Alhambra. Granny lives with them and she and the family fit in the car with a seat to spare.

One of the local whingers made comment and is seen driving around with four kids in the back of a Mini 1 or husbands A4, when they go out with their Granny who lives in the village two cars go. Now that's really green and sensible behaviour ;-)

 

[CliveV]

There speaks the voice of reason. If those that dislike the very idea of a 4x4 had their way they would be banned or taxed out of existence.

However, the reality is that the EU countries that wanted a 4x4 tax were those that did not have an indigenous 4x4 manufacturer.

I doubt that any UK government is going to introduce a tax that penalises the likes of Land Rover that is doing so well at the moment.

The result of such a tax could be that Ford, LR's owners shift the production of the high spec vehicles to the States and the lower tech new Defender model to somewhere with cheaper production costs.

The loss to HM Gov. would be staggering, but Ford have done this before.

So this fact alongside the valid ones Steve outlines above that how would you differentiate an AWD saloon from a 4x4 means that it is most likely that our journeys will be taxed via congestion charges, and our vehicles will be taxed based upon their pollution/emissions "index".

This means that the Taxman can tax ALL OF US - REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE DRIVE!!

Far more attractive to Gordon, and will not "hurt" Land Rover's continuing success, which in itself puts a lot of revenue in the taxman's pocket!

 

[CliveV]

Yes we are guests Gio, and I'm not a 4x4 driver. People are surely entitled to debate and offer advice and alternative views!

No fighting, no rudeness, just open opinion without "PC" preaching and scaremongering!

The bit that is very similar in tone to your intimating that 4x4's are "not good on motorways".

You cannot criticise others for what you do all the time Gio!!

 

[cris_408518]

My cars carry bulk not really weight. When the kids all visit my wife is the shortest at 5'10' and I am second shortest at around 6'6'.

We all fit in one car! The same when I visit family, we all fit in one car!

I pay a lot of tax and VAT on my car use. I could use a van and claim back the VAT, but use cars due to our work, distance and comfort.

I did a run to Switzerland and Germany 3 or 4 years back with one of my trailers due to the bulky long goods we were carrying.

One of my guys was explaining how we travelled with little traffic problems back at around 90 mph on some German motorways and through france at 80mph, our friendly local copper and some others jumped on the fact that we had the trailer with us!

After we had beeen called every name under the sun, Steve explained that two of these trailers when empty comes apart with very expensive aircraft style fixings so that the twin axle setup wheel base fits inside my car a van or his 4X4 with the A frame setup and other parts.

My own design

We save time and money on ferries and fuel and tolls etc, can travel faster on return trips, do not block the roads.

If seen in my car or a 4x4 I am often a single occupant, but I'm more than often carrying goods or a trailer that provides mine and others income!

A friend is a salesman and drives a Toyota Landcruiser. He has been attacked as a 4x4 driver, he's just a saleman!

He sells diggers and small palnt equipment that travel behind him for demonstrations and to be delivered to his customers!

His boss found it was cheaper to run the Toyaotas with Ifor Williams trailers than run Trucks and Salemans cars. The customers get better service and overheads are lower and the taxman gets a better share!

 

[giovanni_5060838]

The facts as stated re the Carlton are true. They may be an extreme example of a cars tyre wear.

But hey!! - You started the "extreme" quotes with - "large 4x4 are not as safe on m/ways as standard cars".

The opinion of one man and quoted out of context.

The point is that it comes down to personal choice. And if the "Anti's" (Valid description if you constantly criticise those would drive 4x4's) use extremes to get their point across, you can hardly complain if the "Pro's" (Valid description if you feel a 4x4 is best for towing) do the same.

Personally I am delighted you got such a good mileage from your Cavalier. But I wonder if you were the guy that had to be pulled of the wet grass at Sandy Balls last year after his wheel spin caused a lot of damage to the grass surface. He drove a Cavalier and just put his foot down! The Wardens were not impressed and let him know that they did not appreciate having a pitch that needed repair before the next user could get on it!

A similar experience was had by a guy who recently wrote to one of the Land Rover Mags, saying that he was "fed up with getting stuck on wet grass in his Volvo" when caravanning and wanted advice on what LR to buy.

If you just sat back and looked at the bigger picture Gio!

i try to look at the bigger picture, thats why if u read my statement in its full context, u would not use the anti word.

volvo getting stuck? maybe the chap should have bought a volvo

4x4! or better still learn where to drive and where not to!

my opinions are not extreme, but it appears there is no telling

some the more reasonable picture.now if some on here had their way, they would try to convince, those who come looking for

advice, that no matter what, large 4x4s are safer in all conditions, {which is not true, its physics} and that they could

expect to do vast miles on a set of tyres.{which again, if you

buy a fairly new one with decent performing tyres, and engine}

is again not true.

when u use the anti word it appears u try to belittle the person

u are responding to. but bar a few hardcore, most can read and

take in what is written, without making a play for the high

ground by using anti everytime...

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Well me , I don't know what makes some people tick Geordie ;-)

Proof is that larger cars are safer, as you have more around you to protect you from points of impact.

When people quote statistics on certain types of cars having accidents, they should be looking at the drivers of these cars.

Chances are that many would have accidents in what ever they were driving.

People I know who drive 4X4 and other larger cars drive slower than in smaller sportier models of cars. Many larger vehicle drivers say they feel more competent, safer and less intimidated in larger more upright vehicles. This has to be a more positive factor for some.

On motorways etc I like many (I Guess) give large trucks and vans a wide berth. I notice people doing the same with my large cars and vans and at the local schools I've notice over a long period drivers of smaller cars giving the 4x4 and people carriers etc more room.

Seeing a taller vehicle in an area with many pedestrians, has to have positive benefits surely. The fact that it is higher and more easily visible over parked cars and at time moving more cautiously due to being a little wider can also provide positive benefits!

My son and daughter have both driven my cars at times, there style of driving changes for the better when they move out of there "hot hatches" into a the larger two wheel drive cars even now they are use to them.

Friends and aquaintences have commented along the same lines over the years, about people driving "larger" cars.

So when people mention safety I think they should apply a little more latteral thought ;-)

No offense or personal attack here!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i have never read so much ill informed rubbish,about saftey.

why don't u read a car mag and check out the ncap ratings.

b4, making another ill informed opinion, which seems to be

copied by others.

bmw 1 series, citroen c4, peugeot 1007 small merc, hell theres

loads of small and medium cars which a 5 star rating,for saftey.

infact there are far more than there are large 4x4.

maybe u mix up how a car would look after a crash, with how the

occupants would be!

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Cris is right

Bigger cars are safer to the occupants and give a better field of view. I have both the Discovery and an estate car. I love the discovery because it feels safe, sure footed and more relaxed than the estate.

I tow with the discovery because it has a better %age value than the Estate and gives loads of pull when needed.

I for one will not get rid of the discovery regardless of increases in Tax. If it becomes too expensive then the Estate will go and we will use th money it frees up to continue to use the 4x4 to tow with. This will mean that the discovery will also be used for everything else including the school run.

The people who do use 4x4 as status symbols will also continue to use them as they will be more of a symbol of wealth. So all in all, increasing the cost of running a 4x4 by taxing it will result in thee being more on the road, more of the time.

Also, I cannot see how the government can ring fence the 4x4's. any tax increase will have to be on emissions and engine size. This will hit the caravan industry hardest as we are the group of users who have bigger engines than most. Ring fencing 4x4's will be not be allowed as it does not allow free choice and will hit farmers etc. The EU will not allow that.

So, when you start to complain about 4x4's. Please remember that they have the same engine size and emissions as many of the cars we see towing caravans. Do you really want to see our hobby hit so hard? Me, I can afford the tax, but many cannot and that makes me feel sick to the stomach. Sick that because some people do not like what others drive some will have to give up the hobby we all love so much!

Steve

PS, it does not matter what you drive. All that matters is that we are a group of people who love to caravan. Forget the opinions and get out there while you still can afford to

more dribble... please name me one 4x4, that has the same emmisions as an identical car by the same manufacturer that is 2wd.

i will start u off volvo make a car with both types of drive.

and there emmisions are not the same....