A real and often unknown damage until it's to-late

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all out there. How many of you tow your twin axle caravans with a 4x4?
I have just come back from a very very reputable Lancashire caravan repair shop and been told that the damage to my caravan is not pothole or kerbing related or caused as the manufacturer has claimed and would have us believe and for a very very long time on caravans that are a great deal newer than mine is.
The damage is actually caused by being towed with a powerful 4x4 and not a conventional tow-car,many of which are more than capable albeit one would be towing at near to 100%.
I do not have nor would I have a 4x4 for any reason whatsoever.
The damage to my caravan as I had already suspected is actually an old problem that has returned,it had been the subject of a previous repair and towing with a 4x4 on this particular caravan is where the initial problem came from. The real issue is that the floor area in the front NS corner has dropped and that in turn has caused the aluminium skin to crack,this is made more likely by the huge hole where the door goes.
The other front corner has also dropped but nothing like as bad. Apparently the dropped front corners of the floor is not unique to the caravan that I have,it is known to affect other manufacturers products.
To make it worse there is very little by way of chassis support for the corners.
This damage has seemingly caused other issues that all-in-all are going to cost a great deal of money to rectify. The real issue is that it is not recoverable as an insurance claim. It is not accidental damage.

 

[Mel]

Hi Travelling Rooster. I am not technically minded and my A level in Physics was a l-o-n-g time ago; so I don't understand what it is about 4x4s that would cause damage in comparison to other cars Are you saying that the power is translated into vibration??
mel

 

[MichaelE]

Its not April the 1st is it?

 

[Gagakev]

Another question for you Travelling Rooster, why is is just twin axles?
I only ask as my 1700kg, single axle, 7.9m (shipping) can be the same size as a TA, but as it has a longer A frame and body of 6.4m will this be affected in the same way? I suspect the chassis would cover more of the corner's than a shorter A frame?

 

[woodsieboy]

While I am sure your information is based on a reliable scource, I cannot help but question it,if a 4x4 causes such damage surely there would be more evidence,there must be thousands of people towing caravans with 4x4 vehicles, we are on our third 4x4, and seventh caravan and have as yet not experienced the problem you describe.Do you have evidence that twin axles are affected by towing with specific 4x4s?

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to all that have responded. I am told by a caravan repair company owner that the damage is predominantly on twin axle caravans and in particular from one manufacturer. The damage is known to have affected longer single axle caravans as well as the twin axle caravans. These all have the doors forward of the axle/axles.
The power that is put down when using certain 4x4's causes twisting and flexing far beyond what is imposed when using regular tow-cars.
The damage is generally not immediate but as the floor is subjected to more and more flexing the corners will drop away from the underside of the bodies at the corners. In real terms there is very little support for the front corners in the first place. The chassis is tapered towards the 'A' frame from approximately half way between the door and the front corner of the body and only a rather short and singular outrigger supports the whole of the otherwise floating area of floor.
This in turn causes movement of the front cap and then both splitting of the skin and water ingress from the front upper section of the roof/front cap begins to find a route into the body panels.

 

[starlightdj]

Hi I traded in my last van to a dealer in Chorley, on handover the rep whilst the van was still atached to the car started trying to bounce the front of the van up and down, then stated the van was possibly damaged by being towed by a 4x4?. He went on to state the hard suspension of a 4x4 woul damage the a frame where it connected to the chassis. Which was proven by movement. And wanted to deduct from the trade in value already agreed.
I challenged him stating how could he check whilst the van was still attached & 2. my volvo has full self levelling air suspension so couldnt cause the damage he was intermating.
He then backed down. Not impressed he seamed to be making up issues to make money.

I think your issue has more to do with build quality ratherthan being towed by a 4x4

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi starlightdj. Interestingly enough this van came from Discover Leisure in Coppull near Chorley at the end of July 2010,it had allegedly come from Perthshire a few days earlier as a PX against a motorhome that had a 12week delivery forecast.
The caravan has only ever been towed by me with either a 1997 Volvo V70 T5 CD Auto,a Volvo V70 2.4T SE Geartronic or now with my Volvo V70 2.4 D5 SE Geartronic. The previous and original owners I believe used a Range Rover Vogue. They had it 9yrs.
When the caravan was flexed by moving the 'A' frame up and down on the rear of the V70 D5 the movement was really quite something.
I am no Professor of Physics but It is not beyond reasonable thinking what must go on when on the back of a powerful 4x4 and jumping around like a bucking bronco on our crappy roads.
What has never ceased to amaze me is the much boasted testing at the proving grounds is carried out with a large 4x4 and allegedly simulates thousands of miles and hours of regular towing duties but the manufacturer constantly blames potholing and kerbing as the cause of the splitting. No amount of running around a proving ground will do what stop start,stop start,stop start will do over a number of years of ownership and the potential for overloading and or badly positioned loads.
Yes,buying pre-owned is and can be a risky business but also can buying new.
Self levelling suspension does not ensure a kinder and less damaging towing attitude between vehicle and caravan it simply allows for a less nose up stance and front end down on the caravan,it also allows for a slightly less sickly ride but not a totally bounce free one. All of my 6 Volvo V70's have had that provision and I would not buy a car without it.

 

[MichaelE]

How they can say that the power 4 x 4's have is causing the problem is a utter rubbish, these cars vary in their power out from 100 bhp to over 300 , which is no difference than any other normal road car?
The suspension is not harder than a normal car in fact softer in most cases.
They should produce hard evidence instead of making wild statements?
The only issue i every heard of was 4 x 4 's towing with leaf springs at the back which may cause issues? Some of the crew cabs still use this type and you seen many of these towing?
The van wasn't a Lunar by any chance was it?
If the statement from the repairer is true then Practical caravan and the Caravan club should never test a 4 x 4 or ever recommend them for towing??
Caravan manufacturers should add a disclaimer out saying that this van shouldn't be towed with a 4 x 4?
As already pointed out , its an easy cop out for the manufacturer , the quest for the need to lighten caravans doesn't help ?

 

[Damian]

I have never heard so much rubbish having been said that damage is caused by a "powerful 4x4"
The power of the tow vehicle has absolutely nothing to do with damage, otherwise every van towed by a certain sized engine would suffer, and they do not.

This is yet again an OLD chestnut which has been addressed so many times over the years.

All the UK manufacturers agree that towing with a car based 4x4, such as the RR Vogue et al is perfectly acceptable as they have independent shocks and links.
The problem arises with people who use commercial based "trucks" which have leaf spring suspension an transmits more shocks to the van , but that is overcome by fitting a Dixon Bate shocklink to the towing vehicle.
The state of the roads these days is such that it is probably the cause of many stress related faults, certainly I have found that I have to get the tracking realigned every year now, whereas it never needed doing in days when the roads were kept pretty well up to scratch.

Also,in the OP's case, he has absolutely no idea what conditions the van he bought had been under for the previous 9 years, whether it had been driven over rough ground, kerbed, had been overloaded ,,,,,,,,,,the possibilities are endless.

I do not think that there is anything else which needs to be said, it has all been said before.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi and Good Morning Michael. I have simply related to what I was told by a very reputable caravan repair shop. They have been in the business for a very long time. This damage that is on my caravan is MOST LIKELY caused by a 4x4. As I have previously stated I believe and from memory that they towed with A Range Rover Vogue. Since being in my ownership this caravan has only ever been by Volvo V70's (FWD) since - I am the second owner.
The chap at the repairers was not specific as to whether it was 4x4 Crew-cab or regular 4x4 type but there is one thing for an absolute certainty - a 100bhp anything and not even a 4x4 of such puny bhp would cope with this twin axle;not even downhill.
Just as a matter of record, it wasn't an anything it is an actual and still in my possession non Lunar 26ft TA.
In my experience of reading certain Caravan Specific Magazines some things have been carried out and when questioned about the actions there have been half cocked reasons as to why this was the case.
Just as a point of interest,there is absolutely no evidence that the failure of the front corners is due to water ingress,they are both bone dry.
The NS front corner is considerably lower than the OS one,the heavy duty and very heavy battery ( circa 21kgs) is in that corner and the often and much lighter water heater is in the OS one. The van is never towed with water in the heater but the battery is always in position.
If as one manufacturer is constantly maintaining that the splitting of the aluminium skins at the front NS forward side windows is caused by potholing and the damage to the floor at the front/front corners is caused by being towed with 4x4's and commercial vehicles then I very definitely would not be interested in a pre-owned Ex Travellers Caravan !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[RayS]

At the time I bought my first caravan (1950's) some makes did warn agains towing with some 4x4 and light commercial vehicles on the grounds that the rear suspension of such vehicles was too 'hard' due to the intended load they were designed to carry and that undue vibration would be transmitted to the towed vehicle.

Most of the vehicles in question would have had 'cart sprung' leaf spring suspension on the rear axles, possibly without shock absorbers. Similarly the suspension of the caravan would probably not have included the integral torsion spring and shock absorbers of today's units, so there might have been some grounds for the warning.

Today there are many less towcars with such suspension, although it can be found on some current 'pick-up' or small truck type vehicles w hich are fairly frequently seen towing the larger TA caravans. None of the caravans i have owned since the 1990's have had any restrictions or warnings in their handbooks or pre-sale publicity; 4x4 and pick-up type vehicles have featured in TCOY and other reviews without any such comments, so I don't see how there can be any serious proposal that such towcar can be source of problem.

Incidentally, Rooster, still waiting to here from you directly. Have asked Steve to give you my email but he seems to have a problem finding yours.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Ray. I have sent a message to Steve (Parksy) and asked for my E'mail address to be forwarded to you.

 

[Trevormc]

I was told about all this more than 20 years ago when I had a old Land Rover, it being a rigid chassis could shake the van apart. I was told a Dixon Bate Shock Link should be fitted and would help.

At the time the cost price was £300 I have not had any problems so money well spent at the time.

Trevor

 

[Raywood]

I think you might find that Lunar tend to use more borderline chassis designs than some other manufacturers which may be a point here, ours has no ability to upgrade the weight because of this. Yous also seems to be quite an old caravan as the previous owner had it nine years and you have towed with three different Volvos also there had been a previous repair. Given you say the corners have dropped is this actually the chassis or have the legs been wound down too far and done the damage?
I cannot see that a range Rover would be a problem as a towcar as they have a very soft ride for a towcar far softer than most 4x4 cars.
I have to go back a long way to have any knowledge of chassis cracking on a regular basis. If you go back to late 80's early 90's there was a problem with Trophy caravans having cracked chassis, this was limited to the twin axle models and seemed to be due to the aluminium chassis not being strong enough for the length. I have not heard of the problem with Lunars but then again not sure what the previous repair was and what caused the damage.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Rooster.

This new suggestion of how the damage to your caravan has been caused, has clearly has not found universal favour with the contributors who have responded to this thread.

I too am very sceptical about the contention that the damage is solely down to using a 4x4. In fact I have a suggestion that most current 4x4's are actually kinder than cars to caravans for the following reason.

A true 4x4 is designed to traverse rough uneven terrain. To achieve this the suspension on the vehicle has to have greater articulation than road only vehicles. Tyres also have a greater footprint so to support the same weight they have to be inflated to a lower pressure. The combined effect of both these characteristics endows may 4x4s with a much softer ride, and tendency to rolling when turning. As the towball is fitted to the suspended part of the vehicle the same softness of movement will be imparted to the trailer. - so softer not harsher.

By comparison vehicles with leaf springs are designed to carry heavier loads, and to prevent undue ride height differences between empty and fully loaded the suspension and tyres have to be less compliant. This means such vehicles will be more transmissive to surface variation.

Now if your reputable repairers contention were accurate, then bearing in mind your model of caravan is larger than average, it is likely that more owners will opt to use a 4x4 to tow. So on balance there should be lots more owners complaining of the same issues. We don't have access to to numbers of complaints, but if it it were a significant number I am certain that despite any sort of gagging orders, we would have had substantially more evidence of complaints. In my view the numbers we have seen do not support either a manufacturing design issue or a 4x4 related causal factor.

Perhaps you would invite your repairer to add their professional take on the situation to the forum directly.

I shall not hold my breath.

 

[compass22]

one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fact the crew cab trucks have a big over hang,we all know the closer the tow ball is to the back wheels the better it is for towing,with a long over hang there's a lot more movement transmitted to the van from the tow vehicle.maybe this'd is where part of the problem lies?

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi ProfJohnL. I am not for asking my sources to put themselves up on the shooting gallery on this or any other forum gallery for that matter.
Suffice it to say that in each and every case of the three repairers offering this otherwise perfectly clear and understandable explanation of how and why the damage occurs.
It also came with a clear indication that the resultant damage was definitely not a potential insurance claim and the fourth but incidentally the largest and possibly best know of them all not even looking for - never mind making mention of it before going about the examination of the caravan.
Just maybe this damage is like like some others that have been reported over the years,they were only heard of by those that subscribed to the caravan magazines and communications between members of caravan specific clubs was somewhat ******** and therefore relatively unheard of.
The now very easy and wide open access to the internet and forums such as this one are helping to 'Spread the Word'.
The old word of mouth and passing on of the good news/bad news and sharing of information/details around the camp fire/the club room or the good old pub are the equivalent of Snail Mail as opposed to the supper speed and spreading rate provided by modern technologies.
Yes,my particular caravan was 9yrs old and from the original owners into Discover Leisure making me the second owner.
The original owners had a great deal to hide and had told me nothing more than barefaced lies when after purchasing it from Discover Leisure I had occasion to ring them and politely ask for some help in understanding an anomaly with the caravan,this included why both sides of the caravan looked like they had never been previously on the same new product. The caravan had allegedly been damaged during a maiden outing at some 3weeks old.

 

[compass22]

..

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

I think you might find that Lunar tend to use more borderline chassis designs than some other manufacturers which may be a point here, ours has no ability to upgrade the weight because of this. Yous also seems to be quite an old caravan as the previous owner had it nine years and you have towed with three different Volvos also there had been a previous repair. Given you say the corners have dropped is this actually the chassis or have the legs been wound down too far and done the damage?
I cannot see that a range Rover would be a problem as a towcar as they have a very soft ride for a towcar far softer than most 4x4 cars.
I have to go back a long way to have any knowledge of chassis cracking on a regular basis. If you go back to late 80's early 90's there was a problem with Trophy caravans having cracked chassis, this was limited to the twin axle models and seemed to be due to the aluminium chassis not being strong enough for the length. I have not heard of the problem with Lunars but then again not sure what the previous repair was and what caused the damage.

Hi Raywood. Your comment about Lunar and their more border-line chassis designs I don't think is a valid reason for the damage that has occurred to my caravan and just because it is a 2001 chassis it is still relatively the same as is used today,the upgrade opportunities have only been a relatively recent 'benefit' / option and offers a move from a default specification to a heavier plated and approved capability based upon the fact that chassis design allows for such manipulations in axle loads to be exploited. This offers/allows for flexibility of configurations on a single chassis as does a basic car has the ability to go from the standard crate to the all singing - all dancing manufacturers money spinner.
I do not understand the link/mention to/of my three Volvo tow-cars simply because they have all been used during the term of my now nearly 4yr ownership of the caravan.
As far as the damage goes,it is a dropped floor at two specific locations and certainly during my ownership the steadies have not been cranked up to the point of pushing the floor up at the corner regions.
With this particular manufacturer I believe that the floors on their products are now inserted and bonded into channels rather than the rather totally and potential suspect method of screwing through the lower body and into the floor edge with screws. The parts of the floor that are not supported by rails do not have any support flanges and the outriggers do not appear to offer any more support than failing far short of the corners.

[/Reference to the manufacturer ,albeit in a subtle way removed.
This is the last warning about your continued attempts to prolong a very tedious topic which has been done to death in various disguises.
The main thrust of the topic has been well covered and this topic is now locked.