Accident on M5 south of Bristol

[Surfer]

Coming home this morning at about 10:30am there had been an accident with a caravan on the downward south bound lane before Weston turn off. We were travelling north.
The caravan was a large Bailey caravan and was across the offside and middles lanes. It looked to be undamaged but could not see properly as the north bound lane is a lot lower than the south bound lane.
At that point the police had not arrived so must have just happened. We heard on the news that there had been some serious injuries. Hopefully they will be alright.
Although we have no idea what caused the accident, it was surprising the number of vehicles towing caravans that overtook us and were exceeding 60mph by a large margin.

 

[Steve L]

While I do feel sympathetic to the people who have been involved in the accident and wish them a speedy recovery, I also have to agree with surfer that, there are too many people towing at rediculass speeds.

I'm off down somerset way to Yeovil and Barnstaple on tuesday for a day trip, curtesy of flea bay. So i'll be using the M5 and the north devon link. I'd bet my shirt on it that although I'm driving solo and sticking to 70, I'll get at least half a dozen caravnners overtake me!!!

I realy don't know why people feel the need to speed with a caravan or trailer on the back. If you've planned your day properly and added 25% on for delays, there should be no reason for a dash to the holiday. After all you've got the accomodation on the back and even if you breakdown in the middle of nowhere, you can have a brew and calcultively work out a solution.

 

[Parksy]

We normally travel during off peak periods and I've often wondered about posts which highlight caravanners towing above the national speed limit because we hadn't really seen much evidence of it.
When Practical Caravan magazine held it's annual rally at Stowford we went down during a busier period and I was rather surprised at the high number of units that passed me when I was doing a true sat nav indicated 58-60mph. Away from the lorries I sometimes reduce my speed to around 55mph on the sat nav on long motorway pulls to keep the revs down and to conserve fuel and some outfits made me feel as though we were standing still. We'll never know what cause this recent incident but the carriageway is very rutted in places in that area so it wouldn't take much for an unstable or poorly loaded caravan to suffer a loss of control.

 

[seth1]

Whats amazing is the amount of rubber neckers you see,who then cause a traffic jam on their side of the carrigeway,then broadcast it all over a forum leaving little privacy for the person involved.Bizzar

 

[GeorgeandAde]

We also travel at off peak times Parksy.
I love towing and feel that it is part of the holiday which should be enjoyed too.
Dont see any point in leaving home at the last minute,getting to storage for the van(no room to store it at home)then rushing to get it hitched up,tearing down the motorway at speeds in excess of 60mph.
55mph,nice and steady and enjoy the experience .
Arrive at site (probably 30 minutes after "Mr Speedy")relaxed and ready to pitch the van,get the awning up and a nice cuppa....Bliss

Adrian

 

[joeby]

its not always speed that causes accidents , when we travelling to stowford farm there was a lorry in front of me and a plonker towing a caravan in front of the lorry , and in front of him was a farm vehicle , we all had a straight road which was going into a duel carriagway the idiot in front of the lorry had ample time to overtake the far vehicle but he stayed where he was , so the lorry began to overtake , and as the lorry got behind the idiot , he started to pull out forcing the lorry and me to brake , what a lucky day for him he wasnt going to stowford

 

[ProfJohnL]

Like most of us humans, I hope that all injuries are as minor as possible and that a full recovery is on the cards.

There is no such thing as an accident in motoring terms, Someone somewhere has failed to do something properly thus there is a humans cause which makes it an Incident.
Contrary to Joeby's statement speed is always a factor in a collision.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi,
Ok so it may be unpopular but I tow at whatever speed is appropriate for the journey i'm on and the road being used that can be from 45 to 65mph one thing I wont do is sit in the inside lane at 54mph on a m/way constantly being "overtaken"if that is the right word by HGV's doing 55mph nor will I sit in the middle lane doing 58mph overtaking the same HGV's for mile after mile.
it called road craft takes years and years to learn and does not diminish because someone just out of short pants say's it's wrong??
ps, I will be driving up the M5/M42/A42/M1/M18/A1 on sunday so if a little bailey ranger towed by a mk1 megane passes you at 63mph it will probably be ME!!!
colin

 

[Lutz]

I'm amazed at people who seem to spend more time looking at the speedometer than at the traffic conditions ahead - and behind. I get the impression that they consider just because they are going at a constant speed just below the legal limit this is their inalienable right, never mind everyone else and the conditions.
If I see a lorry or whatever coming up from behind trying to overtake at what is obviously little more than my own speed and I am unable, for some reason, to go faster myself or if it would be inappropriate to do so, I lift my foot off the accelerator to allow him to get by as quickly as possible. Conversely, if the vehicle ahead is going only a little slower, if it is safe to do so, I accelerate until I've passed it, even though this may mean that I may exceed the speed limit in the process until able to return to my intended normal cruising speed afterwards.
An overtaking manoeuvre is always accompanied by extra risk. It's therefore important expose one's self to this risk for an absolute minimum period of time.
Why is it so important not to have to adjust one's speed?

 

[ProfJohnL]

I agree that you should minimise your risks, I also agree you should modulate your speed according to the traffic and conditions, but there is a legal cap to the speeds you are allowed to do. - called the speed limit.

No one has any rights to flout it - not even when over taking.

If you cannot complete an overtaking a manoeuvre without speeding, then you should not overtake. Though I have found an increasing incidence on motorways of approaching a slower vehicle, and starting to over take, only to find the slower vehicle then speeds up to match or even exceed my speed. I have no option but to drop back behind what was the slower vehicle.

As for constant speeds, there is nothing wrong in trying to maintain a constant speed, provided the conditions allow it. This is of course the realm of cruise control. With the aggressive way speed limits are enforced - particularly in the average speed monitoring areas is a godsend.

Oh I hope JonnyG is reading this.

 

[Lutz]

I agree that I have no right to flout the speed limit, but if there is no discernable reason for it for obvious safety reasons, I am willing to accept such a minimal risk of potentially getting caught just at that moment when I was in the process of overtaking.
I am not a person who abides by any law just because it is the law. That's not to say that I'm an anarchist but if I don't consider the law to make sense I will contest it if I feel strongly enough about it.
I also agree that there is nothing wrong with trying to maintain a constant speed, like when using cruise control, but conditions must allow it and heavy traffic doesn't. Except when driving at off-peak times I have rarely been able to justify using cruise control when driving in the UK. Even here in Germany I seldom use it, although I've found it useful in parts of France and some other more thinly populated parts of the Continent.

 

[Parksy]

....when I was doing a true sat nav indicated 58-60mph. Away from the lorries I sometimes reduce my speed to around 55mph on the sat nav on long motorway pulls to keep the revs down and to conserve fuel and some outfits made me feel as though we were standing still......

................Why is it so important not to have to adjust one's speed?

Oh dear, I may have given completely the wrong impression here

As it happens I held what was then described as an HGV 1 licence for many years until health issues forced me to surrender it and I drove everything from small vans to 38 tonne articulated lorries fully freighted over my working life. I held a class 3 licence before being allowed to try for the class 1 because in my day a professional driver was expected to prove his worth and the way that a driver worked was usually monitored in terms of fuel efficiency, punctuality of deliveries, number of accidents (if any) and care for the load.
Obviously as a responsible, courteous and safety concious driver with a clean driving licence I strive to continually review my driving technique even now that I'm retired, particularly when towing.
Of course I don't steadfastly maintain this constant speed whilst ignoring other road users or road conditions, it simply happened that because I knew that I was close to the national speed limit on some stretches of carriageway I noticed my sat nav speed when being overtaken and left far behind by other vehicles towing caravans at that particular time that I was referring to.
I do however try to drive smoothly and efficiently whilst allowing other road users, particularly lorries, to go about their business without hindrance from me because of poor driving or lack of consideration.

Back in the day when I made the transition from being a van driver to a HGV 3 driver under training the instructor used to ask what speed limit applied to the stretch of road that we were using. The wise pupil would make it their business to know the speed limit and would confidently give the correct answer. The instructors next pearl of wisdom would be to ask why we were not doing it then?
A driver is expected to make normal progress when road conditions allow and not to hold others up by dawdling but not to break the speed limit either.
A good driver does this and conserves fuel at the same time, my car these days is fitted with an automatic gearbox but we had the excellent Fuller 12 speed constant mesh (3x4) gearbox in a tractor unit fitted with a 240 Cummins lump on the Fodens that we were using to haul steel and general haulage back then

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

I just cant believe some of the replies to this topic, "

Contrary to Joeby's statement speed is always a factor in a collision" Really! one of the highest incident rates is turning left/right from road junctions, nothing whatsoever to do with speed, just poor observation. Our motorways are still the safest roads with lower accident rates than other types of road.
With regard to speed, if you Carnot complete your manoeuvre without exceeding the limit for that particular road don't do it! or if you are in the process of overtaking and you cant complete the manoeuvre without exceeding the speed limit, reduce your speed and pull back in behind the vehicle you were attempting to overtake.
"

I'm amazed at people who seem to spend more time looking at the speedometer than at the traffic conditions"
It should take no more time to check your speedometer than it does to check your rear view mirror.
"
"I am not a person who abides by any law just because it is the law. That's not to say that I'm an anarchist but if I don't consider the law to make sense I will contest it if I feel strongly enough about it"
No one is above the Law, as I was once told by a traffic cop many years ago " I don't care if you are going uphill, downhill, on the flat, overtaking, or any other manoeuvre the limit is 60MPH and I will enforce it

but we had the excellent Fuller 12 speed constant mesh (3x4) gearbox in a tractor unit fitted with a 240 Cummins lump on the Fodens that we were using to haul steel and general haulage back then

Clutch less gear change, as you say a very good gearbox in its day, 240BHP, and when you think now days they are chasing 600 BHP!

 

[Parksy]

Clutch less gear change, as you say a very good gearbox in its day, 240BHP, and when you think now days they are chasing 600 BHP!

We used to call the clutchless gear change 'torque breaking' and it was a matter of pride amongst 'real' drivers as opposed to redundant 'factory rats' who were regarded as test passers who usually needed help to rope and sheet as well.
The lesser drivers and new blokes often ended up with ERF's with the 180 Gardner

I'd love to have a go in a modern tractor unit, I'd imagine that they are much less tiring to drive with every modern convenience.

 

[Surfer]

I have recently been updated that in this case speed was an issue and was more than likely the cause of the accident. Does any one listen to their engine revs these days when driving. If my revs start increasing I check the speedo and if exceeding the limit I slow down. If they decrease, I check the speedo and increase acceleration as appropriate.

 

[Lutz]

No one is above the Law, as I was once told by a traffic cop many years ago " I don't care if you are going uphill, downhill, on the flat, overtaking, or any other manoeuvre the limit is 60MPH and I will enforce it

Quite true, but if a police officer is going to make full use of the powers bestowed upon him without room for judgment, but for the obvious purpose of simply demonstrating his authority or causing an inconvenience, I'm not going to take that lying down either, regardless of whether the law is on my side or not. However, I am perfectly willing to acknowledge my own mistake if I can see a point in it.
Years ago I was stopped by the police in London for going through a red traffic light that I had regretfully overlooked. It was a mistake on my part that could have caused an accident so I fully understood their action and everything was settled without getting emotional about it, so one cannot say that I expect to get by every time I break the law.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Quite agree with you there Lutz, I to like most have broken the law (driving related) but have known when I have been at fault, and when stopped by the police admitted to my mister meaner, and have usually just ended up with a ticking off, but I have also encountered the jobs worth, to whom no amount of reasoning will persuade him from issuing a ticket.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi
This may all be true but the point is if mr plod is going to pull me over for overtaking a HGV at 60+ "which he wont" when tearass trevor is doing 90 in the outside lane "more likely" then so be it.
at least I wont be sat behind some juggernaut looking at his tail lights for mile after mile,

 

[ProfJohnL]

I just cant believe some of the replies to this topic, "

Contrary to Joeby's statement speed is always a factor in a collision" Really! one of the highest incident rates is turning left/right from road junctions, nothing whatsoever to do with speed, just poor observation. Our motorways are still the safest roads with lower accident rates than other types of road.
With regard to speed, if you Carnot complete your manoeuvre without exceeding the limit for that particular road don't do it! or if you are in the process of overtaking and you cant complete the manoeuvre without exceeding the speed limit, reduce your speed and pull back in behind the vehicle you were attempting to overtake.

"

I'm amazed at people who seem to spend more time looking at the speedometer than at the traffic conditions"
It should take no more time to check your speedometer than it does to check your rear view mirror."

Hello Cookiones,

A collision is when two object approach each other and meet, and for that to happen there must be a closing speed. No speed no collison FACT.

And with respect to knowing your speed, if you have set a cruise control then no problem, and in fact you have more time to become aware of whats going on around you.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

I just cant believe some of the replies to this topic, "

Contrary to Joeby's statement speed is always a factor in a collision" Really! one of the highest incident rates is turning left/right from road junctions, nothing whatsoever to do with speed, just poor observation. Our motorways are still the safest roads with lower accident rates than other types of road.
With regard to speed, if you Carnot complete your manoeuvre without exceeding the limit for that particular road don't do it! or if you are in the process of overtaking and you cant complete the manoeuvre without exceeding the speed limit, reduce your speed and pull back in behind the vehicle you were attempting to overtake.

"

I'm amazed at people who seem to spend more time looking at the speedometer than at the traffic conditions"
It should take no more time to check your speedometer than it does to check your rear view mirror."

Hello Cookiones,

A collision is when two object approach each other and meet, and for that to happen there must be a closing speed. No speed no collision FACT.

And with respect to knowing your speed, if you have set a cruise control then no problem, and in fact you have more time to become aware of whats going on around you.

So Prof, driver A is sat at a road junction in a 30mph limit waiting to turn right, Driver B approaches at 28mph, Driver A fails to see Driver B and pulls out in front of him, collision!!!!! was speed a contributing factor? No speed no collision.................what kind of a statement is that?
And with respect to knowing your speed, try using your cruise control up here in the midlands where we have speed regulated Motorways, sorry it will not happen, eyes up to the gantry to check what limit is imposed, quick glance at the speedometer, you spend your time A driving your car, B driving the one behind you, and C driving the one in front of you, and do not forget even with cruise engaged on a down hill decent your speed will be inclined to increase, sorry there is no substitute for good driving habits, and that includes the regular checking of mirrors and the instruments laid out in front of you on the dashboard, including the speedometer

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello cookieones,
please stand back and consider carefully what you have written.

I stand by the pure scientific fact that I have stated; no closing speed, no collison. I did not state that speed is the cause of the collision. In your example the speed of the approaching car is a factor. If the car was not approaching there could not be a collision. ipso facto speed is a factor in every collison.

Thus my statement is 100% accurate.

As for knowing my driving speed, in essence I do, probably more accuratly than most motorists, beacause I tend to use cruise control. As with most peices of equipment you quickly get to know its working charateristics and before long it becomes second nature , like using the gears clutch indicators etc. Critically once set it holds the speed within +/- 1Mph except on steep inclines - but see later about descending hills

It not just in the Midlands where motorways are speed regulated - I think you will find that all UK motorways are speed regulated, 70mph comes to mind, unless a lower limit is in force!, and as I do live "up here in the midlands" and I do use cruise control on motor ways and in other areas then sorry your contention that "it does not happen" is disproved by every single motorist that does use CC - even in the Midlands!

The actions required to check your speed are no different with or without cruise control, you still need to glance at the sign and then at your Speedo and adjust your speed accordingly. Its a push of a button to change or lock in the new speed. The advantage is that you know that your not creeping up beyond the set speed unlike the driver without CC who could be following the pack and find them selves straying above the limit.

I cannot conceive why you should think I am trying to drive 3 cars at the same time, and I assure readers that I don't. I am aware of the cars around, and will dive so as not to endanger any of them. but I will not speed even if every one else is trying to do so if they want to endanger their licences that is their choice. On a motorway they have greater opportunity to overtake if they consider it safe to do so.

Today on a 45mile journey in and out of Birmingham and back I have passed no less than 28 speed cameras, and of note 5 of those are located on downward slopes where in top gear a car will accelerate due to gravity. By slelecting a lower gear the cars speed is checekd by engine braking but the Cruise control keeps it at the no less than the set speed. I know because I was caught by one several years ago, and I wasn't using CC!

The only bit of your last posting that actually makes full and proper sence that I can support is "there is no substitute for good driving habits, and that includes the regular checking of mirrors and the instruments laid out in front of you on the dashboard, including the speedometer" none of which is contrary to my own posting.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Hello cookieones,
please stand back and consider carefully what you have written.

I stand by the pure scientific fact that I have stated; no closing speed, no collison. I did not state that speed is the cause of the collision. In your example the speed of the approaching car is a factor. If the car was not approaching there could not be a collision. ipso facto speed is a factor in every collison.

Thus my statement is 100% accurate.

As for knowing my driving speed, in essence I do, probably more accuratly than most motorists, beacause I tend to use cruise control. As with most peices of equipment you quickly get to know its working charateristics and before long it becomes second nature , like using the gears clutch indicators etc. Critically once set it holds the speed within +/- 1Mph except on steep inclines - but see later about descending hills

It not just in the Midlands where motorways are speed regulated - I think you will find that all UK motorways are speed regulated, 70mph comes to mind, unless a lower limit is in force!, and as I do live "up here in the midlands" and I do use cruise control on motor ways and in other areas then sorry your contention that "it does not happen" is disproved by every single motorist that does use CC - even in the Midlands!

The actions required to check your speed are no different with or without cruise control, you still need to glance at the sign and then at your Speedo and adjust your speed accordingly. Its a push of a button to change or lock in the new speed. The advantage is that you know that your not creeping up beyond the set speed unlike the driver without CC who could be following the pack and find them selves straying above the limit.

I cannot conceive why you should think I am trying to drive 3 cars at the same time, and I assure readers that I don't. I am aware of the cars around, and will dive so as not to endanger any of them. but I will not speed even if every one else is trying to do so if they want to endanger their licences that is their choice. On a motorway they have greater opportunity to overtake if they consider it safe to do so.

Today on a 45mile journey in and out of Birmingham and back I have passed no less than 28 speed cameras, and of note 5 of those are located on downward slopes where in top gear a car will accelerate due to gravity. By slelecting a lower gear the cars speed is checekd by engine braking but the Cruise control keeps it at the no less than the set speed. I know because I was caught by one several years ago, and I wasn't using CC!

The only bit of your last posting that actually makes full and proper sence that I can support is "there is no substitute for good driving habits, and that includes the regular checking of mirrors and the instruments laid out in front of you on the dashboard, including the speedometer" none of which is contrary to my own posting.

No John, I think it is you that needs to stand back and consider what you have written, do you not think you are over stating the obvious! and for some one who calls themselves a Professor, it was implied that speed could have been a contributing factor.
Well you see "M laud if his speed had have been 0 when I pulled out in front of him he would not have hit me!
"
Today on a 45mile journey in and out of Birmingham and back I have passed no less than 28 speed cameras, and of note 5 of those are located on downward slopes where in top gear a car will accelerate due to gravity. By selecting a lower gear the cars speed is checked by engine braking but the Cruise control keeps it at the no less than the set speed. I know because I was caught by one several years ago, and I wasn't using CC!
Poor driving technique, so you are going to select a lower gear whilst cruising on a motorway at 70MPH??????? Don't forget John the OP was about a caravan that had overturned on a Motorway.
As for knowing my driving speed, in essence I do, probably more accurately than most motorists
Never consider your driving to be better than any one else's, there is no room for, I know better than him behind a steering wheel.

I cannot conceive why you should think I am trying to drive 3 cars at the same time
A good driver will be anticipating the actions of other drivers around him, more so on a Motorway where the most threatening ones are directly in front and directly behind, so in essence you are driving your car, the one behind by anticipating his actions, and the same for the one who is directly in front of you, or more commonly known as "defencive driving"

It not just in the Midlands where motorways are speed regulated - I think you will find that all UK motorways are speed regulated, 70mph comes to mind, unless a lower limit is in force!, and as I do live "up here in the midlands" and I do use cruise control on motor ways and in other areas then sorry your contention that "it does not happen" is disproved by every single motorist that does use CC - even in the Midlands!
John I live close to the M1 who have just introduced a speed regulated part of that motorway to cope with traffic conditions, so it could be 50/60/70 or even 40 MPH depending on the volume of traffic, or between east midlands airport and J28 stop and start traffic, still want to use your cruise control?
Cruise control has it`s place, but certainly not on a congested Motorway.

 

[Lutz]

I'm not going to comment on the difference of opinion between the Prof and Cookieones but I do get the impression that just because a speed limit says X mph some think you HAVE to drive at X mph. When the traffic is heavy, the opportunity for doing so without reducing the safe gap between your vehicle and the one ahead or behind is not that great. Under such conditions, if you're going to leave speed to the vehicle's own devices by using cruise control, then this only makes sense if the vehicle is also capable of holding the gap without any input from the driver. This calls for radar based systems such as Distronic which is offered by Mercedes Benz for many of their models.

 

[Steve L]

Clutch less gear change, as you say a very good gearbox in its day, 240BHP, and when you think now days they are chasing 600 BHP!

We used to call the clutchless gear change 'torque breaking' and it was a matter of pride amongst 'real' drivers as opposed to redundant 'factory rats' who were regarded as test passers who usually needed help to rope and sheet as well.
The lesser drivers and new blokes often ended up with ERF's with the 180 Gardner

I'd love to have a go in a modern tractor unit, I'd imagine that they are much less tiring to drive with every modern convenience.

I rose throught the ranks to the class 1 HGV too. Funnily enough, I'm always being asked to rope trailer loads by my relatives because they keep having things drop off when they do it. You might be right to say things are much easier on drivers these days with ratchet straps, roller tarps on tippers and tiptronic gearboxes, but I think it is probably more difficult these days.

Yep with all the gizmo's of today, a modern driver sat in his/her air sprung seat and sprung cab, have a hard time staying awake. At least when I drove waggons, they were noisy, hard seated bone shakers that were such dogs to drive in a straight line, you were too frightened to nod off.

I too learn't the dark art of crash boxing. The other day I had cause to drive my son's partners 7 1/2 ton horsebox to help recover her 2 horses after the disco got terminal clutch desease. She asked why I double de-clutched her Leyland road runner.(clutch down- out of gear-clutch up, clutch down and select next gear while adjusting engine revs to match speed). I told her that while her truck (H reg), has a modern syncromesh gear box, knowing how to double de-clutch and gate change, made life easier on the box and the engine. So now I've got the job of passing the traditional skill's down to her.

Your right Parkesy, those were the days when "drivers were the Knights of the road", unlike today where they are pushed by desk jockey's to get from drop to drop with seconds to spare. We were trusted in the good old days to deliver the goods, today your tracked to the nearest meter. I can recal a mate of mine who was usin the firm's van on a shedding job at Wooler in the north east. They'd picked up with a couple of local gals from the pub where they lodged. The boss rang the van mobile one morning to ask why it was parked outside number 92 church road? Butch's reply was "because we couldn't park out side number 94! They got a right roasting cos they were supposed to be at work 10 miles away and not "on the job"

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was at that point that they realised the van had a tracker fitted.

Good old modern technology.

 

[Parksy]

Hi Steve
Your post caused a wry smile when I remember some of the goings on before trackers were invented.
One large firm that I worked for used agency drivers who, if they showed promise, might be given the opportunity of a full time permanent job after a suitable trial period. The saying went round amongst us 'permanents' that the agency guys thought that double de-clutching meant hitting the clutch pedal with both feet! I drive a 4x4 with an auto gearbox these days but I always used double de-clutching in every vehicle until I changed to auto boxes.
We had one agency lad in his twenties who had been given a much coveted '2 nighter' around the south coast but he decided to rush the job (before speed governors were fitted) to spend the second night at home with his young wife. Of course he wasn't too popular with his neighbours when he parked the 16 ton Sedd Akky in front of their windows in his terraced street so they phoned in and I was given spare keys to recover it in the wee small hours (a nice bit of overtime for me)
He phoned in the next day to say that his lorry had been stolen in London!!!! He didn't get taken on lol.

To go back on topic I'd suggest that the roads are safer now than they were 30 years ago mainly because more drivers tend to obey speed limits in built up areas either because of speed cameras or because of road congestion.