Aluminium window frames - condensation?

[Ian341]

Hi All, We have a 2006 Ace award tristar, it has aluminium framed windows which look nice but in this current weather they condense badly. When we were away last the water was dripping from the tops and pooling in the bottom. We even had icicles on the bathroom window frame.

I'm wondering what the best way is to prevent this?

The heater was on and the van was a comfortable temperature. The extractor was on when cooking.

I can't think of anything else that can stop them from condensing. It is quite irritating.

Any suggestions would be great!

Thanks

Ian

 

[Mikey1]

Hi Ian

This was a very hot topic last year,have a trail through previous posts to see what you can find.

If my memory serves me correct there is not a lot you can do.

 

[Damian]

I really do not know why it is surprising to have condensation on metal frames in the kind of weather we have been experiencing, it is normal!

Given any cold surface and moisture exhaled through breathing and you will get condensation.

The frames are not thermally broken (there is no insulator between the inside and outside)so the outside cold will be transmitted inside.

There is no way of stopping it unless you keep the metal at a much higher temperature than the rest of the van, and of course, lots of ventilation, but then that lets cold air in, and th ecycle repeats.

The only solutions are to mop the water up each morning, thoroughly ventilate the van or stop breathing(Not recommended)

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Ian

There were over 100 posts on this subject. I started it.

Anyway, it's too late now as I think Lord Hezza's computer ran out of steam and deleted everything.

Unless Damian Mods can retrieve it it's gone forever.

Cheers

Alan

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Ian,

As Damian has stated condensation is almost a certainty, especially with the fairly extreme cold we have been experiencing over the last few days.

I believe this is mainly due to the fact that UK caravans are mostly designed for a minimum temp of about -5C, so any thing close or colder than that is going to cause some problems with keeping the caravan warm and properly ventilated to minimise condensation.

Continental and Scandinavian caravans destined for the cooler climbs will have additional features to make them habitable at lower temperatures. Damian has mentions a thermal break, which many of these caravans will either have or will use alternative insulative materials for window and door frames.

I am sure we would welcome an comments from manufactures about the working external temperature ranges of their products.

 

[Gidders]

On the subject of Aluminium windows I require to replace the rubber seal on my 2005 Abbey van . I have the seal supplied by Swift and am not sure how you get the existing one off and how you fit the new one. Do not wish to start in case I end up with more of a leak than at present - water seems to be getting in through the seal and lying on the lip of the frame.

 

[AnnM1]

You could try smearing neat washing-up liquid on the the metalwork inside the van. Many years ago it worked on our patio window.

Ann

 

[Dustydog]

Please see below.Bailey's MD Nick Howard , took a personal interest in this subject. The problem only happens in certain circumstances but clearly demonstrates Polyplastic got it wrong.

Not much else to say, but I hope the following gives you all a better technical understanding of the subject.

Cheers

Alan

Dear Alan,

Thank you for your e-mail, your points have been noted.

I'm seeing the managing director of Polyplastic at our factory tomorrow and will pass on your concerns / suggestions.

Your comments on the consumer appeal (or lack of it) regarding the 'polyvision' windows as apposed to 'conventional' window system is also of interest.

The window system is thermally broken which, as I'm sure you are aware, is an expensive process. This is intended to prevent condensation, but I suspect that this is either being partially bridged by the sealing rubber or attracting condensation because it is near to the exterior of the caravan and therefore gets colder than the interior. We tested a Senator at Millbrook proving ground's thermal chamber in November of last year (down to -15), and the thermal profile of a caravan interior and the difference in temperature between colder and warmer areas is surprising. It may just be that aluminium is not suitable for the inner part of the extrusion.

Thank you for your comments I will advise you of any developments.

Kind regards,

Nick Howard

Managing Director

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Terri

Sent: 29 February 2008 15:17

To: kelly watts

Subject: Re: Aluminium Window Frames , My Bailey Series 6 Senator Wyoming (2008)

Dear Nick

Many thanks for the quick reply and detailed explanation. As I said before it is only the internal aluminium profile , not the windows themselves that attracts the condensation. From an asthetic view point they look the part but that wasn't something that bothered me.

I suspect , and forgive me for being presumptive, Polyplastic sold you and other caravan manufacturers pretty ally window frames which were supposed to be even better than those fitted in the Pageant. I suspect Polyplastic did not fully test the windows prior to putting them on the market.

This is an interesting phenomenon from a psychological point of view not dissimilar to the causes of the British Midland Boeing 737 aircraft crash at Kegworth. The engines in previous years models had been bullet proof. To increase power in the latest model the engine manufacturers increased the RPM without testing in service. On paper it should have worked. In the real live world it was disastrous. The engines were recalled and completely redesigned for the new application.

I suspect that is exactly what Polyplastic have done here.Upgraded but forgotten the basic principles of caravanning in cold climates.

We love our Wyoming and don't want to change it. We spent nearly a year considering all the aspects and competition so it wasn't a decision we reached lightly.

It seems we must resign ourselves to using loads of kitchen roll in the winter, first thing in the morning.

If it helps in solving the problem I am happy for you / Polyplastic , to fit any modified or experimental window frames into my Wyoming that may alleviate the problem long term and avoid similar problems on your new caravans.If it means going back to the Pageant style frames then that is no problem for us.

Best wishes

Alan

----- Original Message -----

From: kelly watts

To: Terri

Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 1:40 PM

Subject: FW: Aluminium Window Frames , My Bailey Series 6 Senator Wyoming (2008)

Dear Alan

Thank you for your email regarding your Bailey Senator Wyoming

The 'Polyvision' windows do have a 'thermal break' between the inner and outer sections of the frame. This is the practice of running a bead of resin into a dedicated trough in the profile and subsequently machining out the bottom of the trough when the resin has cured so that the inner and outer section are connected but, thermally isolated from each other.

Condensation will occur on the outer part ie around the rubber/ window contact point. This is because the inner air is warm, and at that point the frame is cold. I believe a build up of moisture occurs at this point and some water runs across the rubber onto the inner section of the window.

This is largely unavoidable when the section is so narrow unlike domestic aluminium windows our walls are only 28mm thick.

However, we are looking, with Polyplastic, at improving the design but have no immediate solution.

Kind Regards

Nick Howard

Managing Director

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:

Sent: 29 February 2008 11:08

To: Helpline

Subject: Aluminium Window Frames , My Bailey Series 6 Senator Wyoming (2008)

FAO MR NICK HOWARD MANAGING DIRECTOR

Good morning Nick,

On a personal note may I thank you and congratulate Bailey for offering to take an interest in the Practical Caravan forum. I have already told your Kelly Watts that an active participation in such forums can, in my opinion , only be a good customer relations exercise from your point of view.

I am sure you will have read the posts (over 70 now) on the aluminium window frames condensation problem.

My previous series 5 Pageant Vendee and my in laws Series 6 Pageant Monarch have never suffered any condensation issues.

Believe me , when we were away three weeks ago in the Wyoming the amount of condensation that collected on the aluminium frames was unbelievable.

We upgraded to your flagship range for a number of good reasons and I have to say it was a very close call between the Wyoming and Swift's Conqueror. In the end we went for the Wyoming on the basis all our previous Bailey caravans have been first class and any issues, all minor , have been resolved quickly by Chipping Sodbury Caravans.

Personally the aluminium window frames are of little consequence to me and Terri. She says the frames we had in the Pageant were more than adequate and did the job well. What a shame then that changes have been made which in all honesty do not perform as well as the previous design.

Swift and Polyplastic have refused to discuss the problem any more, in fact they say , there is no problem! That makes me think there is a problem!!

Can you and your design team come up with a solution to resolve this problem please?

I am not looking for any heavy trouble and I can understand a manufacturers desire to keep costs to a minimum and obviously avoid expensive product recalls and litigation etc. The fact remains however that unfortunately the aluminium frames are very susceptible to condensation when touring in the winter.

Surely you could design something that alleviates the problem?

I look forward to hearing from you.

Best wishes

Alan

 

[Ian341]

Thank you all for your replies.

It seems it is no a one off problem then. I noticed earlier that even the new senators have the same windows.

Although the new ace awards have gone back to the other type.

I agree that the windows look nice but the condensation is a problem. It is worse in the bathroom, mostly because of steam and lower temperatures. I also find that the problem is helped a bit by leaving the blinds open. The blackout comes up from the bottom and the flyscreen meets from the top, if I have the blackout half up then I notice that the bottom of the window condenses badly.

It is not a huge problem, we had condensation on our swift with the previous windows. If I had known it was a problem I would still have bought the van. It is not a huge ordeal to just wipe down the frames.

I presume that in hotter weather it will stop ?

Thanks

Ian

 

[Parksy]

Alan wrote:

'Hi Ian

There were over 100 posts on this subject. I started it.

Anyway, it's too late now as I think Lord Hezza's computer ran out of steam and deleted everything.

Unless Damian Mods can retrieve it it's gone forever.

Cheers

Alan'

Hi Alan

You started the earlier topic in February last year but unfortunately the search facility of the forum doesn't go back that far.

I've had a furtle about in the basement of Haymarket Towers and have found the topic but have no means of reproducing it here.

I can however re submit the advice that Hamer offered on 3rd March 2008 which seemed to offer good advice to make the best out of a bad job and I hope he won't mind my copying and pasting it here:

HAMER: 'Jo-anne and Alan, We have just spent 8 nights at Blackmore Caravan club site in our 2007 Swift Conqueror. Jo-anne Blackmore is one of our favourite sites. Even allowing for the very wet and windy weather the site was in excellent condition and a good level of occupancy for the time of year. The pathways in the dog walk have been covered in wood chippings so no mud to contend with. As I have stated in earlier comments on this thread we did as i have advised other people to do to avoid condensation. During the whole time we were there we never had any condensation. Speaking to a couple of other caravaneers on site with new caravans with alloy windows, the message was loud and clear. Heating on 24/7 and correct use of extractor fan--no problems with condensation. We were cooking in our caravans, but most people seemed to be using the site shower facilities. A couple of times our dog had to be dried off in the caravan but still no condensation.We never let the temp in the caravan drop below appros 60 degrees. There are some nice pubs not far from the site serving good food. Hamer '

I hope this helps, if anyone has a query about a past topic or post as long as they can provide an approximate date, subject and if possible which section of the forum it was in I'm happy to try and help...... I can't promise that I'll always succeed though!

 

[trucker]

when we were away at xmas in the very cold weather we had some pooling of water at the bottem of our windows and we havent got the posh alloy frames, we just mopped it up and all was dried up after 1/2 hour of windows on jar.

 

[Gidders]

It is interesting to read the correspondence on the condensation issues particularly as I had thought the reason I had water lying on the inside ledge of the aluminium windows was to do with faulty seals which I have received a replacement for from the caravan manufacturers and am trying to fit..

The problem came to light last March when at the second annual service the damp meter reading was up to 40% under the blind cassette in one particular area - I thought I had a window leak and was able to dry out the area relatively quickly using a fan heater having taken off the blind cassette.I kept an eye on the situation over the summer taking regular meter readings and all was in order. The van has been in storage since September and during recent visits I have noticed water accumulating on the alluminium inner sill which I have had to mop up and at the same time taking Protometer readings to ensure none has found its way into the caravan walls. There is little I can do other than keep an eye on the situation and to see what happens when new window seals are fitted at the next service in March. Missed the topic last year and disappointing that there does not seem to be a solution to this problem particularly when the van is only 3 years old. Others - be warned to inspect alluminium windows regularly particularly when we experience signficant temperature fluctuations.

 

[Ian341]

Interesting, a few weeks back the kitchen window had pool of water in the aluminium frame, I was concerned it was leaking so using a hose pipe i blasted the frame. Nothing could be a better test than this. There was absolutely no leak. However, the front window had condensation where the sun was on it and the blind was up. I have now left the blinds open with just the curtains closed so better circulation and nothing over the kitchen and there hasn't been anymore water on the frames.

Ian