(Another) Towing limit MTPLM and European regs

[Matt-]

Hi everyone. My first post here. I've done some research and found threads on here that have given me some really useful information, but I want to clarify a couple of things.

I have a Skoda Superb - GVW 2118kg and GTW 3918kg (1800kg tow capacity when car fully laden).
I want to pull a Hobby 645 with a MTPLM of 1900kg (1600kg MIRO)

If I ensure the caravan MPTLM is not exceeded and the GTW is not exceeded (inc. individual axel loads), is this setup legal in the UK and EU (specifically Germany, France, Spain, Italy). Importantly - where is the reference for this - I can't get a straight answer from anyone? (Construction and use regs has been offered but that's UK only and I couldn't decipher it anyway :blink: ).

We're planning a long trip this winter which will be fun and want to get the best 'van for our needs.

Thanks in advance.

Matt.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Matt

I can't comment on how other countries apply their regulations, but in theory at least when visiting other EU countries they should accept any vehicle that is approved in its home country. In the UK what you are proposing is perfectly legal, BUT it may not be recommended. I suggest you seek clarification from professional organisations such as the Caravan Club, The AA or RAC.

Concerning your proposed outfit, it always to make sense to keep the weight of a trailer as small as possible. however the caravan industry suggests novice towers should keep the MTPLM of the caravan to no more than 85% of the car kerbweight. Only when you have gained enough experience should you consider increasing towards 100% of kerbweight. Neither of the 85 or 100% offers any guarantee of good safe towing and they have no legal impact.

 

[Matt-]

Thanks John.

I appreciate the comments. I don't quite understand all the emphasis on the ratio between car and van, 85% or 100%. I've driven some large commercial vehicles and towed heavier things in the past without issue. I know someone who tows a 4.5 tonne boat with a Land Rover defender (with air brakes), so the ratio is way out there with that setup. Is there something particular to caravans that requires a more cautious approach? Or is it just more likely novice drivers will tow a caravan?

Cheers.

Matt

 

[RogerL]

If the Skoda's GVW is 2118 kg, what's it's kerbweight/mass-in-service - at a guess about 16-1700 kg which gives a Towing Ratio in excess of 100% even if you keep the caravan payload to about 200kg - you won't find any authority recommending that outfit.

It's the bulk and shape of caravans that makes them more tricky than boat/car trailers of the same weight.

Land Rovers have towing limits of 3500 kg so a 4.5 tonne boat is illegal !!

LCVs are "semi-trailers" in US parlance with a considerable part of the trailer weight is borne by the towing vehicle - unlike a car where the noseweight is a small % of the trailer weight.

 

[Raywood]

The reason that it is suggested that the weight of the trailer is kept below the weight of the towing vehicle is basically to stop the tail wagging the dog. If the trailer is too heavy then in an emergency situation the trailer can be too heavy for the car to control causing a jacknife. The 85% is the recommendation for beginners to towing although it is not a hard and fast rule and once you have experience you should be able to exceed this to some extent and even as a novice a bit over should not be a problem. The Superb is generally regarded as a very good tow car so it should be well up to the job of towing a caravan of a suitable weight.
The out fit you describe is on the face of it legal providing you have the correct licence. Licences issued from 1997 onwards limit you to a gross weight of 3,500 kilos which you might exceed and if you want to tow above this weight you need to pass a further test. Full information can be found at the bottom of the home page of the Caravan Club website together with a lot more useful information.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

The other reason that the 85% recommendation is made is that caravans, being high-sided, act as a sail in the wind. If you are legally towing a heavy low-sided trailer, eg trailer with a tonne or so of building sand, then it is unlikely to be affected by side winds.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The reason that it is suggested that the weight of the trailer is kept below the weight of the towing vehicle is basically to stop the tail wagging the dog. If the trailer is too heavy then in an emergency situation the trailer can be too heavy for the car to control causing a jacknife. The 85% is the recommendation for beginners to towing although it is not a hard and fast rule ......................

Hello Ray
I think I understand what you are trying to tell us, but what you have written is not quite accurate.

I am certain that if you were able to review all the incidents of instability and jackknifing of caravan outfits you would find plenty that conformed to less than 100% and indeed less than 85%. Neither of these figures imbues an outfit with any sort of guarantee of stability, so it is wrong to imply it.

We know the traditional way of calculating the ratio is flawed as it uses the minimum weight for car and the maximum weight of the trailer, a condition that is virtually impossible to achieve in reality. The tow vehicle will always be heavier than kerbweight, and in many cases the caravan will not be fully loaded to its MTPLM so the real ratio will always be lower than the calculated figure. This means even more occurrences of instability will be with sub 100% & 85% ratios.

Stability is not achieved by weight ratios alone. Yes the do play a part but it is far from the major and only factor to be taken into consideration. You should also remind readers that proper maintenance of tow and trailer vehicles, sensible loading, and good driving habits with consideration of the prevailing conditions are other very significant factors.

 

[RogerL]

For all the faults of using a maximum recommended Towing Ratio, based on the kerbweight, ie unladen weight, of the towcar and MTPLM, ie fully laden weight, of the caravan - it is the best SIMPLE guide to stability.

To get into any more detail requies a Master's degree in Mathematics, Physics and Aerodynamics !!!

 

[Raywood]

I accept what is said regarding weights being theoretical but sticking to a caravan weighting less than the kerb weight of the caravan is common sense. Their are combinations that might work where the caravan looks on the face of it to be too heavy but you can never be sure and only ignorant or reckless people ignore the risks. My experience comes from investigating accidents after they have happened and I can assure you the ones that have had serious problems when towing have almost always had very poor weight ratios.
The only way you find out if a combination is safe is in an emergency situation and if you are wrong it is too late. It is no good saying you have towed with a given combination and there was no problem you may simply not have met the right combination of circumstances to show how wrong you are.
Weight can literally be a matter of life and death so blind faith in your optimism is not worth it.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Ray and Roger,

If you were to review all the posts on the forum where I have expressed an opinion about a suggested combinations ratio, I have always stated you should keep the trailers weight as small as possible. So we are not at odds on the principle. But I have always had a healthy scepticism about the industries very specific recommendations of 85 and 100% figures because they have become the target to meet for so many caravanners without reference to the other factors which I sincerely believe have a greater importance in maintaining stability than weight ratios alone.

Every incident of loss of stability is serious, there is a high risk that the outfit may be damaged or persons could be injured, but its a unsubstantiated assumption the the cause or severity of the incident is soley related to large weight ratios. I do not deny they may a contributory factor, but you must not discount road & vehicle conditions and the drivers reactions to the prevailing circumstances.

I would be very happy to see an alternative method of predicting an outfits likely stability factor, which could take into account the wide differences between vehicles and trailers, but I think its a long way off yet. So as the only predictable features of tow vehicles and trailers we have easy access to are their weights we do have to continue to use the fundamentally flawed weight ratio calculation, But when giving advice about the ratio rather than just quoting 85% or 100% make sure we add they are not guarantees of stability or Safety.

 

[JonnyG]

Hello Ray and Roger,

If you were to review all the posts on the forum where I have expressed an opinion about a suggested combinations ratio, I have always stated you should keep the trailers weight as small as possible. So we are not at odds on the principle. But I have always had a healthy scepticism about the industries very specific recommendations of 85 and 100% figures because they have become the target to meet for so many caravanners without reference to the other factors which I sincerely believe have a greater importance in maintaining stability than weight ratios alone.

Every incident of loss of stability is serious, there is a high risk that the outfit may be damaged or persons could be injured, but its a unsubstantiated assumption the the cause or severity of the incident is soley related to large weight ratios. I do not deny they may a contributory factor, but you must not discount road & vehicle conditions and the drivers reactions to the prevailing circumstances.

I would be very happy to see an alternative method of predicting an outfits likely stability factor, which could take into account the wide differences between vehicles and trailers, but I think its a long way off yet. So as the only predictable features of tow vehicles and trailers we have easy access to are their weights we do have to continue to use the fundamentally flawed weight ratio calculation, But when giving advice about the ratio rather than just quoting 85% or 100% make sure we add they are not guarantees of stability or Safety.

ummm one would gather that the caravan industry had gone to extremely long lengths working closely with the powers that be to come up with their towing recommendations, i just wonder who are we to show "scepticism" at their recommendations. sorry prof i had tyres on my mind. lol.. no you make some valid points, but you cannot control roads nor drivers reactions, but you can at least control to a fair degree your weight ratio of car to caravan....

 

[varadero1000xlv]

Hello Matt

I'm not sure if what I'm about to say is going to help, but I was on the Caravan Club Site forum today trying to sort out the weight of my outfit with respect to speed limits in France. I summary, if the towing vehicle & caravan weights are in excess of 3.5T (same for motorhomes) in France, the lower speed limits apply. These weights are the maximum weights applied to the vehicles and are irrespective of the actual weights. So, in a nutshell, my caravan weighs 1247 KGs MTPLM. The car is a VW Passat with a GVW of 2090 KGs and like yours, a towing limit of 1800 Kgs. So you add these 2 figures together and the total comes to 3980 KGs (this is what exceeds the 3.5 T weight v. speed limit). I'm told it doesn't matter that the caravan only weighs 1247KGs and added to the 2090 KGs it would then have weighed just 3337 KGS which below the 3.5T threshold. It is the maximum figure that holds here and in France. It seems pretty daft to me that you could have a lighter vehicle to tow with, and providing the maximum towing limit of the car wasn't exceeded then if the two vehicles together came to less than 3.5T, you could drive at the higher permitted speed limit although the combination would/could be probably be less stable. You spoke of towing at 1900 KG MTPLM caravan with a car with a maximum stated towing limit of 1800 KGs. If you did do this, I would suspect you could be on quite dodgy ground with trying to explain to French Gendarmes (little sense of humour) why you were towing above the cars stated towing limit. It's all getting too complicated these days. Not everyone though has thecommon sense or the practical experience of towing heavy loads (not caravans) so I suspect these rules are enacted to make sure the less knowledgeable or experienced keep safe?

 

[RayS]

If the OP is still with us - try the Caravan Club site and you will find a clear explanation of how things are calculated (but not the 'thinking' behind the regulations - mainly because there isn't much from a practical point of view).

Like a number of Euro things, you need to know what they mean and either know when you are breaking the rules and are prepared to face the music if caught or to just stick with the regulations and have a relaxing if slower holiday.

There have been several similar outbursts. The requirement for marker plates on outfits over 12m and the 'ban' on towing a small car on an A frame behind a motor home (both in Spain) are typical. There seems to be no published tariff for on the spot fines - I have friends who have suffered the penalty for A frame towing varying between 30 and 150 euros, with confiscation of the frame in one case - so all I can conclude is to understand the wording of the regulation but not necessarily the logic or lack of it behind it, and act accordingly.
It's a holiday after all.

 

[Raywood]

I agree that the 85 and 100% rules are a crude way of working out safe towing limits but they are the best we have. Other factors from axle position on the tow car to the size of the caravan side can affect stability and with the huge number of combinations of car and caravan available I cannot see how any more scientific answer can be arrived at. What I think we are all agreed with is that the manufacturers towing limits when they are considerably larger than the weight of the car should not be taken as an excuse to tow at that weight. Keeping the caravan weight down as far as possible is nothing more than a rough and ready approach but at the moment it is the best we have.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I agree that the 85 and 100% rules are a crude way of working out safe towing limits but they are the best we have. ..............

Ray,

In your first line you link 85% and 100% guidelines with "safe towing limits" and then reinforce that link by calling them "rules" They are neither and the industry does not explain them in that way at all. Its this continual misquoting of the guidance that leads caravanners into the trap of working very hard to get their ratio spot on, and ignoring arguably other more important factors that affect towing.

 

[Raywood]

I agree that the 85 and 100% rules are a crude way of working out safe towing limits but they are the best we have. ..............

Ray,

In your first line you link 85% and 100% guidelines with "safe towing limits" and then reinforce that link by calling them "rules" They are neither and the industry does not explain them in that way at all. Its this continual misquoting of the guidance that leads caravanners into the trap of working very hard to get their ratio spot on, and ignoring arguably other more important factors that affect towing.

Prof, I agree they are guidlines and rules was an error but I still feel they are basic common sense. You do not have to be exact with 85% and have said an odd percentage point does not matter. I still believe it is a good guide for beginners and that going over the cars kerb weight is sheer stupidity. You can never be sure of how an outfit will behave in an extreme emergency until it happens to you and stacking the odds against you by towing too heavy a weight just does not make sense. I have always watched the weight ratio and the only time I had to do an emergency stop the car held the caravan in a good straight line and the biggest danger was the lorry behind me not reacting fast enough but he did.
In my work I have met those who ignored the weight guidelines and can only say I am glad I am not one of them as they learned by their mistakes.