Are you really saving energy?

[Buckman]

I don't think I have ever known any one who has been as unlucky as you when it comes to using technology. It always seems to go wrong for you.

However after going through various checks with the manufacturer it was them that decided to send a technician. With my permission the manufacturer can also access the machine from their offices and I can guarantee that they will not send out a technician on a whim.

 

[Sam Vimes]

Despite spending all my life in the high tech industry I have a deep distrust in consumer products that are branded as Smart and the real killer for me is anything that has AI in the title.

In the days when we had a tumble dryer we just learnt how long it would take depending on what we were putting into it. It had an on/off switch and a timer.

 

[Raywood]

The hot fill went out some time back. The hot fill was very wasteful as Other Clive says, the hot water often hardly reached the machine and it then had to heat the cold water from the pipes, meaning you were heating cold water and the hot was mostly left in the pipes.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Despite spending all my life in the high tech industry I have a deep distrust in consumer products that are branded as Smart and the real killer for me is anything that has AI in the title.

There are several weasel words that manufacturers like to use to give the impression their product giver a better function than what went before. A classic is "Digital readout" which in reality for most low cost products simply means you can be more precisely wrong!

Another pet hate is when manufacturers of appliances that use electric heating claim their system is "high efficiency" which gives the impression that other products are less efficient when it almost always isn't true - one of the things about electric heating is it's almost always 100% efficient. In particular I know of several older folk who have been duped by such depicenption into changing home heating appliances thinking they'll be cheaper to run, only to find the same running costs but with a much bigger initial capital outlay cost.

I'm sure others can find similar examples from their own experiences

 

[Hutch]

I have noticed recently, two months, since having a "smart meter"( making me paranoid) that if I have the water, for heating at 66c , instead of 60 c , the amount of gas used is about £1. To £1.50 less over the 12 hour period, we have the water and heating on at 18 c.

 

[ProfJohnL]

... if I have the water, for heating at 66c , instead of 60 c , the amount of gas used is about £1. To £1.50 less over the 12 hour period,

Are you sure you have those figures the right way round? But of course it could be the external ambient has been uncharacteristically warmer over the las few days so you would use less gas to maintain the same temperature.

 

[Buckman]

I would think that a digital display is cheaper to produce than a manual one involving dials and switches, but the digital display is a good excuse to bump up the price.
At present during the day the heating temperature is set at 20C from about 6.30am until 11am and from 11am until 3pm it is set to 18C. Not sure if we will be able to keep it at that right through the winter.

 

[Dustydog]

I would think that a digital display is cheaper to produce than a manual one involving dials and switches, but the digital display is a good excuse to bump up the price.
At present during the day the heating temperature is set at 20C from about 6.30am until 11am and from 11am until 3pm it is set to 18C. Not sure if we will be able to keep it at that right through the winter.

Blue Motion Technology on my VW. A fancy phrase for auto switch off when stationary and of course uses Adblue to reduce emissions. No one has imported the word Green yet🤪🤪

 

[Buckman]

Update. Which Consumer Group who tested the tumble drier in December 2021 also state that the machine does not dry clothes like towels and denims completely and they need to go in for a second cycle. Each cycle takes about 90 minutes
It now seems that the machine may not be "Not fit for purpose" although it is working within the parameters set by Miele at the factory. We are looking into this further as it seems some of the other new heat pump Miele tumble driers have the same issue due to them trying to meet targets and conserve energy.

 

[Dustydog]

How do the heat pump dryers compare with the standard external vented models? We are revamping the whole kitchen and are surprised how expensive the Miele Heat pump models cost. I also noted in the general spec drying times are quoted at 180 minutes! Maybe I’ll treat SWMBO to a new washing line😉😉

 

[Raywood]

If you are worried about the power you use in the tumble dryer try the Lakeland drying frame which is 220 w on our model. It takes the full load which our old tumble dryer would not and we can use it on cheap overnight electricity. In summer it doubles as a c;othes horse.

 

[Buckman]

How do the heat pump dryers compare with the standard external vented models? We are revamping the whole kitchen and are surprised how expensive the Miele Heat pump models cost. I also noted in the general spec drying times are quoted at 180 minutes! Maybe I’ll treat SWMBO to a new washing line😉😉

Our previous vented Miele tumble drier dried the same amount of clothes in one go and for drying it is far superior to our current heat pump model which cost double the price of the vented one which is now several years old.

 

[Dustydog]

Our previous vented Miele tumble drier dried the same amount of clothes in one go and for drying it is far superior to our current heat pump model which cost double the price of the vented one which is now several years old.

Our Electrolux /Zanussi exterior vented bog standard dryer ,21 years old, still dries everything within about an hour. You’ve convinced me to avoid the heat pump models👍👍

 

[ProfJohnL]

Non of this has resolved the opening question of "are you really saving energy"

The only way you can establish the comparative energy efficiency is to ask examples of both machines to dry the same clothes to the same degree under the same environmental conditions, AND to measure the actual energy consumed.

Even if there is only a reduction of 0.06kWh per load that is still a technically a "saving" but as it's so small, it's questionable if its worth spending on a new machine unless the old one has popped its clogs. It doesn't matter how long it takes, its all down to teh energy consumed to actually do the same job.

However, In practice a power consumption reduction of only 0.06kWh would easily be down to experimental error, or just allowing the one appliance to run on 30 seconds longer than was necessary.

From a slightly different perspective, if you change the criteria from efficiency to effectiveness, the picture changes. If how long the appliance takes to do the job is important to you then, an appliance takes twice as long, or needs a second attempt to complete the job, it can be judged as less effective, even though it might actually use less power and is thus more power efficient.

 

[Dustydog]

Valid points Prof which I believe we all accept. Miele of course in their R&D will have approached the matter as you describe . Then as we all know “Boffin reality” in the real world is never the same as the lab. A quick Google tells me an upmarket condensing dryer is circa £449 against a Buckman type( not saying his) circa £1229 . The more expensive is heat pump tech , allegedly green , yet in the field is not doing the job to the customers satisfaction. The actual energy cost between the two does seem vague. However the “ green “ one costs so much more I do wonder ultimately where the “Energy saving “realistically is🤔🤔

 

[otherclive]

Our Electrolux /Zanussi exterior vented bog standard dryer ,21 years old, still dries everything within about an hour. You’ve convinced me to avoid the heat pump models👍👍

If we cannot use the outside rotary line washing goes into one of the bathrooms which has a radiator from floor to ceiling. We put a dehumidifier in there and even without heating on it will dry overnight. The condensate from the dehumidifier I use to make up my screen wash solution. The tumble dryer comes under the category “ for emergency use only”

 

[Dustydog]

The condensate from the dehumidifier I use to make up my screen wash solution.
I find Tesco’s easier😉

 

[otherclive]

The condensate from the dehumidifier I use to make up my screen wash solution.
I find Tesco’s easier😉

I’ve always bought concentrated screen wash that I can mix for any of the four seasons. Although these days I must admit I rarely see temperatures that require even a -10 degree C mix or lower. I keep a five litre container mixed and I just use it to top up the reservoir at the time I do my weekly checks on tyres and engine compartment etc.

 

[JezzerB]

Ebac sell a hot water fill machine. They reckon it saves money but I assume it depends how you heat your hot water!

 

[otherclive]

Ebac sell a hot water fill machine. They reckon it saves money but I assume it depends how you heat your hot water!

We have used Ebac dehumidifiers for many years, but a hot water fill washer is going against the trend. Surely if you have a combi boiler there’s only cold “hot” water likely to go into the machine given the time for the boiler to heat the water. In our daughters house she’s just had a small 2.5 litre instant hot supply to the kitchen sink which is saving her money given the sink is as far away from the boiler as it could be. Even our hot water takes a finite time to flow from the cylinder and our washer doesn’t take much water at its fill stages.

 

[Buckman]

Valid points Prof which I believe we all accept. Miele of course in their R&D will have approached the matter as you describe . Then as we all know “Boffin reality” in the real world is never the same as the lab. A quick Google tells me an upmarket condensing dryer is circa £449 against a Buckman type( not saying his) circa £1229 . The more expensive is heat pump tech , allegedly green , yet in the field is not doing the job to the customers satisfaction. The actual energy cost between the two does seem vague. However the “ green “ one costs so much more I do wonder ultimately where the “Energy saving “realistically is🤔🤔

I understand what the Prof is saying however instead of all the washing being dry within less than 3 hours for the two loads, it is now taking nearly 8 hours. The machine is supposed to have sensors to determine the dryness etc, but obviously they are not doing the job. Obviously OH is not happy about this especially taking into account the price paid although not quite as much as stated above.

At least Which has come to the same conclusion regarding drying but where do you draw the line between energy consumption and efficiency. In stead enjoying the machine we now face a long protracted battle getting a refund as the machine is obviously not fit for purpose taking into account the time it takes to dry anything thicker than a normal cotton shirt.

 

[Raywood]

Ebac sell a hot water fill machine. They reckon it saves money but I assume it depends how you heat your hot water!

I think the problem is that the pipes will hold cold water and by the time the hot comes through the machine will be full, so you end up heating the cold water and waste what is in the pipes.

 

[Sam Vimes]

Energy conservation and other green issues are hot topics at the moment so its no surprise that manufacturers are trying to cash in on this. This in some cases leads me to believe that there are some dubious marketing decisions being made that are affecting the engineering.

We're probably all aware of the VW emissions scandal and while other schemes may not be on the same scale there is perhaps some misleading information being published to attract consumers.

 

[otherclive]

Energy conservation and other green issues are hot topics at the moment so its no surprise that manufacturers are trying to cash in on this. This in some cases leads me to believe that there are some dubious marketing decisions being made that are affecting the engineering.

We're probably all aware of the VW emissions scandal and while other schemes may not be on the same scale there is perhaps some misleading information being published to attract consumers.

And the vacuum cleaner performance scandal. Dyson took court action as some German cleaners could also sense when being tested in the laboratory.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I understand what the Prof is saying however instead of all the washing being dry within less than 3 hours for the two loads, it is now taking nearly 8 hours. The machine is supposed to have sensors to determine the dryness etc, but obviously they are not doing the job.
...

I am not discounting the possibility your appliance is faulty, but from the description you give it is not obvious the sensors are faulty - you tell us the new machine takes 8 hours to do a job the old machine completed in 3. That being the case - that the job was completed, there is nothing other than the time it took to raise doubts about its efficiency, unless the power the new machine it consumed were greater than the old.

The dissatisfaction you have is the efficacy of the new appliance in comparison to the old one. In particular the time it takes for the machine to complete its task. Is the machine taking longer than it's specifications claim?

The difficulty is, you are not comparing apples to apples. The new machine employees a different mode of operation, and that can easily mean the way it executes and completes its task will also be different. It is also possible as part of its "green" criteria is what defines the completion of a cycle may be differnt to the old machine.

All these differences could easily change the time it takes to complete its cycle.

I do hope the service team can establish if there is fault or not with the new machine and resolve things satisfactorily.