Yes of course - just as ABS on a car should only activate in a crash or crash avoidance situation - anyone who drives hard enough or fast enough to get ABS operating in "normal" circumstances is driving beyond their own capability.
paws said:
But it's not always the driver of the outfit that doesn't "exercise proper control" of his right foot nor used "a little common sense". Other road users can still force him unforeseeably into a situation where he will be thankful for "these modern safety aids". Besides, most of them react much quicker than even an experienced driver can ever hope to.
paws said:
Hello Paws,
Its the "common sense" that get people into trouble
. Now if they were to use good sense ......Lutz said:
Lutz...That's why I referred to "some folks"..... its obvious that all folks ought to exercise proper control of the right foot and use a little common sense
PaulT said:
Just to rewind.
Yes ATC and all other 21st century aids are worthwhile imo.
Note ATC is now , on the whole, standard.
I advocate all these things should be a mandatory fit.
ATC.
AL-Ko hitch / winterhoff anti snake.
Shock absorbers
And all other safety things that help .
Dustydog said:
This brings us back to one of the issues of how do you know a particular safety device actually works - is it because the manufacturer tells you? Or is your decision based on good quality evidence?
Most vehicle manufacturers are what one would describe as credible and responsible. That being the case, they will go to great pains during the design and development stage to make their products, especially safety-related ones, as reliable as possible. Of course, there can never be a 100% guarantee that failures never occur, but in view of the fact that they can be relied on except in very isolated incidents, one should take advantage of any feature that promises to improve safety.
As for caravan stabilisers, I occasionally take the outfit on an empty car park and test the proper function of the system by simulating sudden hazard avoiding action.
As for caravan stabilisers, I occasionally take the outfit on an empty car park and test the proper function of the system by simulating sudden hazard avoiding action.
ProfJohnL said:
I shoulg have said most not all safety...
I don't use Tyron Bands for reasons well documented on this forum .Everything else I mention I use and consider them viable products.
.....I could give you a debate about almost all products said to improve the stability of a trailer/caravan that has the axle(s) placed in the centre of the load carrying area.
However there is no debate about the effectiveness of independently braking the trailer/caravan as a means of controlling outfit stability.
The braking of the caravan/trailer has to be independent of the towing vehicle and be applied equally and simultaneously to each trailer/caravan braked wheel.
The laws of physics dictate this and has been known for years and is why HGV Artics have a braking bias towards the trailer especially when loaded.
However there is no debate about the effectiveness of independently braking the trailer/caravan as a means of controlling outfit stability.
The braking of the caravan/trailer has to be independent of the towing vehicle and be applied equally and simultaneously to each trailer/caravan braked wheel.
The laws of physics dictate this and has been known for years and is why HGV Artics have a braking bias towards the trailer especially when loaded.
And why in Australia and North America they use electric trailer brakes used in two ways - one is from the brake light switch so that the trailer brakes when the car does but ADDITIONALLY can be operated by the driver so that just the trailer brakes are applied - to straighten up if out of shape but especially to avoid getting out of shape on long downhill descents.
For many years, electric brakes were illegal in Europe for trailers under 3500kg but are now permitted as long as they're operated automatically by the over-run hitch, in the same way that caravan brakes are operated.
For many years, electric brakes were illegal in Europe for trailers under 3500kg but are now permitted as long as they're operated automatically by the over-run hitch, in the same way that caravan brakes are operated.
The hitch damper should stop the caravan brakes applying during throttle lift-off.
All vehicles with drum brakes are designed to brake a considerable number of times without incurring excessive play - that why adjustment at specific intervals is all that's needed - in the case of Alko, every year or 3,000 miles.
Adjusting the brakes every trip is un-neccessary and total overkill.
Most people don't need to know how to adjust their brakes if they have the caravan serviced annually by a competent mechanic.
It's possible to get hydraulic disk brakes on Alko and BPW chassis - being hydraulic they self-adjust - the automatic over-run linkage is a bit complex, and adds more cost, so rarely specified - but they're available on Alko's catalogue to fit the Euro chassis used by caravans.
All vehicles with drum brakes are designed to brake a considerable number of times without incurring excessive play - that why adjustment at specific intervals is all that's needed - in the case of Alko, every year or 3,000 miles.
Adjusting the brakes every trip is un-neccessary and total overkill.
Most people don't need to know how to adjust their brakes if they have the caravan serviced annually by a competent mechanic.
It's possible to get hydraulic disk brakes on Alko and BPW chassis - being hydraulic they self-adjust - the automatic over-run linkage is a bit complex, and adds more cost, so rarely specified - but they're available on Alko's catalogue to fit the Euro chassis used by caravans.
Thank you for the advice and knowledge updates - I bow to the superior knowledge of the forum specialists who must rank close to Issac Newton on physics. In particular I have learnt that :-
Pneumatic Tyres don't bounce so shock absorbers are not really necessary but are available if you are fussy.
EPS innovators have got it all wrong when it comes to dynamic braking, they should apply all the brakes equally on both sides for stability.
Hitch dampers should keep the brakes off on engine overrun - mine come on often with a new damper - I will get my money back.
Brake adjustment is only required once per year or 3,000 miles on overrun brakes and it is not necessary to know if they are working or need adjusting - VOSA should know about this I'm angry I waste all that time.
Automatic reversing is not really a good thing because they are complex but you can have if you are fussy.
I have asked AL-KO to comment on these points and I have passed the other EPS points to those idiots who worked on these systems for years and gave me wrong information. Now I'm off back to school to gen up on physics again.
Pneumatic Tyres don't bounce so shock absorbers are not really necessary but are available if you are fussy.
EPS innovators have got it all wrong when it comes to dynamic braking, they should apply all the brakes equally on both sides for stability.
Hitch dampers should keep the brakes off on engine overrun - mine come on often with a new damper - I will get my money back.
Brake adjustment is only required once per year or 3,000 miles on overrun brakes and it is not necessary to know if they are working or need adjusting - VOSA should know about this I'm angry I waste all that time.
Automatic reversing is not really a good thing because they are complex but you can have if you are fussy.
I have asked AL-KO to comment on these points and I have passed the other EPS points to those idiots who worked on these systems for years and gave me wrong information. Now I'm off back to school to gen up on physics again.
Maybe HGVs are so different to much lighter vehicles that good practices from one don't need to be applied to the other.
.....yes they do bounce but the relevant point is that when they are fitted to a caravan, then in the UK that caravan is almost certain to have rubber block suspension which has inherent suspension damping characteristics on its own.JohnMW said:
Shock absorbers(dampers) are not essential with this rubber block suspension and used not to be fitted to save weight and cost.
They do offer some improvement however, so increasingly they are being fitted as standard.
.........not sure what electronic power steering has to do with it.JohnMW said:
The Alko ATC system does not equally activate the caravan brakes to brake the outfit. The system utilises the caravan brakes to create a tensile force at the hitch point of the caravan to the towing vehicle. This tensile force dampens down the lateral forces present at this point during outfit instability and helps to bring the outfit back under control.
It is essential that the braking force is applied evenly to each wheel so as not to exaggerate and worsen those lateral forces.
........your overrun caravan brakes should only come on when the vehicle brakes are applied or when engine braking is being used on a downhill decent.JohnMW said:
They should not operate with simple engine overrun such as when just taking your foot off the accelerator.
.......you do need to know if they are working or if they need adjustment but they are unlikely to need attention more than once a year.JohnMW said:
.....you do not have a choice as this system if fitted to all UK caravans with overrun brakes.JohnMW said:
Oh Dear......
I think it might be wise if everyone were to calm down a bit.
I have followed this debate with interest, and I am disappointed at some replies which from the outset to take a very negative view of what has been posted.
I am also very disappointed to see that one contributor has decided to removed most of his posts by editing them, so the ebb and flow of comments now makes little sense.
Hello JohnMW
You may have something that will work with caravans, but until we have more evidence we are not in a position to make a fair judgment. I do not prejudge your concept, but I have to express some concerns about the misuse of technical words and phrases, and I wonder how complete your technical understanding of the subject really is.
By its very nature this subject is going need some careful description for which high technical content will be needed. Such words have highly descriptive definitions, so its important to try and use them accurately and consistently.
"Hysteresis" describes the inability of a system to return to its former state after an input has been applied and removed. In the context of your statement about tyres, I think elasticity would have been a better choice.
In a later post you referred to the spoilers on the front of lorry cabs 'disturbing the laminar flow', and then went on to say the laminar flow causes a vacuum. This is counter to current understanding. The work on aerodynamics on all vehicles is to maintain as much laminar flow as possible along all surfaces. The vortices are caused by the change in pressure for example when a laminar flow breaks away from a surface.
A Department of Energy study looked at HGV' efficiencies and how to minimise vortices. Whilst it refers to the small vertical spoilers on lorry cabs, it states they have little overall effect on the aerodynamics but were in fact designed to reduce the debris that can adhere to the cab sides. Whether such devices would have more influence on the smaller size of a caravan outfit I don't know.
Please don't be put off by all the comments you have received, but I do suggest you read them more carefully. For example the comment about tyre bounce did not say that tyres don't bounce, it only referred to the lack of effect when tyres bounced - When things get technical you have to be quite careful about reading responses fully.
Please continue posting.
I think it might be wise if everyone were to calm down a bit.
I have followed this debate with interest, and I am disappointed at some replies which from the outset to take a very negative view of what has been posted.
I am also very disappointed to see that one contributor has decided to removed most of his posts by editing them, so the ebb and flow of comments now makes little sense.
Hello JohnMW
You may have something that will work with caravans, but until we have more evidence we are not in a position to make a fair judgment. I do not prejudge your concept, but I have to express some concerns about the misuse of technical words and phrases, and I wonder how complete your technical understanding of the subject really is.
By its very nature this subject is going need some careful description for which high technical content will be needed. Such words have highly descriptive definitions, so its important to try and use them accurately and consistently.
"Hysteresis" describes the inability of a system to return to its former state after an input has been applied and removed. In the context of your statement about tyres, I think elasticity would have been a better choice.
In a later post you referred to the spoilers on the front of lorry cabs 'disturbing the laminar flow', and then went on to say the laminar flow causes a vacuum. This is counter to current understanding. The work on aerodynamics on all vehicles is to maintain as much laminar flow as possible along all surfaces. The vortices are caused by the change in pressure for example when a laminar flow breaks away from a surface.
A Department of Energy study looked at HGV' efficiencies and how to minimise vortices. Whilst it refers to the small vertical spoilers on lorry cabs, it states they have little overall effect on the aerodynamics but were in fact designed to reduce the debris that can adhere to the cab sides. Whether such devices would have more influence on the smaller size of a caravan outfit I don't know.
Please don't be put off by all the comments you have received, but I do suggest you read them more carefully. For example the comment about tyre bounce did not say that tyres don't bounce, it only referred to the lack of effect when tyres bounced - When things get technical you have to be quite careful about reading responses fully.
Please continue posting.
So John going back to the beginning are you an advocate of ATC?
I am. Can we agree and tell the OP ATC is a desirable feature.
I am. Can we agree and tell the OP ATC is a desirable feature.
The OP ( PaulT) posted his question 2 years and 8 months ago...
I know he's a very patient chap, but..........
Some excellent information in the topic though, so thanks to all the contributors...the search engines will probably index this topic and its contents so anyone searching for enlightenment may come across it.
I know he's a very patient chap, but..........
Some excellent information in the topic though, so thanks to all the contributors...the search engines will probably index this topic and its contents so anyone searching for enlightenment may come across it.
Dustydog said:
Hello Dusty,
I assume your comment was directed at me. I am for any system that provides better safety, BUT as I also suggested , ATC or any other safety device should not be used to counter irresponsible behavior.
Unlike the debate about tyre bands, ATC has good evidence to show it does work.
As the OP I had no idea that my posting would still be getting comments on it over 2 years later.
I bought our new 'van nearly 18 months ago (with ATC). I can't say that I've noticed any major differences because of the ATC when towing but then the 'van is a TA so it's a more stable unit anyway (no doubt this comment will bring more interesting comments!!).
Surely the idea of any safety device is that you are not aware that it's "working" most of the time. I agree with all the posters who have asked if you'd specify a car without power steering, power brakes, ABS etc - of course the answer is no (isn't it) so anything that makes a contribution to safety is worthwhile. Plus (a big plus) it makes the OH feel more safe!
I bought our new 'van nearly 18 months ago (with ATC). I can't say that I've noticed any major differences because of the ATC when towing but then the 'van is a TA so it's a more stable unit anyway (no doubt this comment will bring more interesting comments!!).
Surely the idea of any safety device is that you are not aware that it's "working" most of the time. I agree with all the posters who have asked if you'd specify a car without power steering, power brakes, ABS etc - of course the answer is no (isn't it) so anything that makes a contribution to safety is worthwhile. Plus (a big plus) it makes the OH feel more safe!
These are the ironies of good safety systems, under normal driving you won't notice them because they won't need to operate - and no-one deliberately drives badly enough to make them operate - but when the other ijiot causes a situation you can't avoid it's nice to have ABS, ATC, ESP etc on your side.
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