Battery charger

[DerekBrad]

Along with numerous others, I have had great trouble with the Nordelletronic charger in my van (Abbey Vogue).
I have read on a forum that owners have connected a stand alone charger (Aldi or similar) alongside the van's charger to charge the battery whilst on site.

Would I be right to think that I could simply connect the two charger output leads to the main 12 volt cables where they enter the van from the battery box? ( For instance live side of mover main switch and a negative point where easily available.)

Advice appreciated

Derek Bradley

 

[stevesnrs]

Hi
it would be a bad idea to buy a simple car battery charger from aldi or similar, as these chargers are basically booster charges for small car batteries. They will over charge the battery eventually, and cause it to boil, as they don't switch off.
unless they are leisure battery chargers which are three or four stage chargers, which bulk charge the battery, then float charge as the voltage rises, then trickle charge as the voltage rises further, then switch themselves off to prevent over charging and boiling of the battery
If you were to buy a proper leisure battery charger, it would be better to disconnect the vans charger and connect the new charger in its place, or simply turn off the old charger, as the voltages produced by the vans charger would confuse the new leisure charger and cause it to work incorrectly.
Connection to the main cables would work as you described, but don't forget to fit a suitable rated fuse to the out put side of the charger wire.
Hope this helps
Steve

 

[DerekBrad]

Hello Steve,

Thanks for your reply. I was only enquiring about connecting the Aldi charger overnight in order to put enough into the battery for the next day. At present my daughter and family are in France with a failed Nord unit. I have sent my Aldi unit and wished to instruct my son in law as to the easiest method of connecting.
Thanks
Regards
Derek

 

[DeliDave_]

I keep an Aldi charger in the van for just such an occasion,it might not be a perfect way but it will keep the battery topped up for a holiday it was about £12 iirc.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi
it would be a bad idea to buy a simple car battery charger from aldi or similar, as these chargers are basically booster charges for small car batteries. They will over charge the battery eventually, and cause it to boil, as they don't switch off.
unless they are leisure battery chargers which are three or four stage chargers, which bulk charge the battery, then float charge as the voltage rises, then trickle charge as the voltage rises further, then switch themselves off to prevent over charging and boiling of the battery
If you were to buy a proper leisure battery charger, it would be better to disconnect the vans charger and connect the new charger in its place, or simply turn off the old charger, as the voltages produced by the vans charger would confuse the new leisure charger and cause it to work incorrectly.
Connection to the main cables would work as you described, but don't forget to fit a suitable rated fuse to the out put side of the charger wire.
Hope this helps
Steve

As far as I know Aldi have for the last three years only sold 4 stage chargers, so your initial concern is not justified. However I do agree that attempting to run the Aldi and the Nord in parallel could yield unpredictable results.

Its important to understand the Aldi devices only output about 3A, where as the built in charger is probably 10A or more. So its possible the Aldi may not be powerful enough to fully restore the caravan battery overnight.

 

[DerekBrad]

Thanks to all you good folks for help and advice. Will try and come to some decision before the Aldi charger arrives in France.
Derek

 

[xtrailman]

Hi
it would be a bad idea to buy a simple car battery charger from aldi or similar, as these chargers are basically booster charges for small car batteries. They will over charge the battery eventually, and cause it to boil, as they don't switch off.
unless they are leisure battery chargers which are three or four stage chargers, which bulk charge the battery, then float charge as the voltage rises, then trickle charge as the voltage rises further, then switch themselves off to prevent over charging and boiling of the battery
If you were to buy a proper leisure battery charger, it would be better to disconnect the vans charger and connect the new charger in its place, or simply turn off the old charger, as the voltages produced by the vans charger would confuse the new leisure charger and cause it to work incorrectly.
Connection to the main cables would work as you described, but don't forget to fit a suitable rated fuse to the out put side of the charger wire.
Hope this helps
Steve

I don't know where you have got your information but most of it is incorrect.
Most caravan chargers are not multi stage, indeed I have never had a multistage charger in a caravan, and wouldn't want one.

Aldi sell a very good smart charger which will certainly not over charge a battery, ok its only got a 3.5amp output so its not really a replacement for a 20 amp charger, but it will charge a flat battery in time. I carry one as its cheap and very light, it will charge car bike or caravan from memory.

I do agree that connecting the chargers in parallel isn't a good idea.

With that in mind the OP should try to isolate the output from the built in charger, and connect if practical the Aldi charger directly across the caravan battery using the clips and instructions provided.

Below is a link for a charger that can be set to both multistage or soak, so you have the best of both worlds at a price cheaper than the original usually, and it can also be used with out a battery.

http://www.amperorassociates.co.uk/Category/c-battery_chargers.html

 

[stevesnrs]

Interestingly,, how do you know you have never had a multi stage charger in a caravan, and do you realise what would happen if you didn't?

 

[xtrailman]

Interestingly,, how do you know you have never had a multi stage charger in a caravan, and do you realise what would happen if you didn't?

Please don't try one up man ship you would be wasting your time.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Interestingly,, how do you know you have never had a multi stage charger in a caravan, and do you realise what would happen if you didn't?

Please tell us

 

[gary]

Interestingly,, how do you know you have never had a multi stage charger in a caravan, and do you realise what would happen if you didn't?

Please tell us

ditto

 

[colin-yorkshire]

Interestingly,, how do you know you have never had a multi stage charger in a caravan, and do you realise what would happen if you didn't?

Please tell us

yes please do hmy: if the charger on the van was multi stage it would put more than 80% capacity in the battery if left on charge, """"wooden tit"""

 

[stevesnrs]

the forum is not about "one up man ship" but open discussions about the question asked?
your comments were of "one up man ship", and you never gave a valid reason for your remark
I asked you to tell me how you knew your comments were correct, or are they just your opinion.
and still you have not given an explanation, or comment.
There has been many many instances on this forum and others, about the use of battery charges but the subject still keeps reappearing.
I have spent as part of my whole working life fitting battery chargers to boats motorhomes caravans horseboxes and the like, and have seen changes over the years, I have also seen the damage that can happen when someone fits the wrong type of charger because they thought "they didn't need a smart charger and wouldn't want one"
The worst case I have seen was on a boat, where the owner had fitted a car battery charger, the type you would buy from Halfords,or indeed a cheap super market, instead of the victron energy multi stage charger that was fitted originally it was fitted or should I say "sat" in an electrics locker, which caused the four 6v traction batteries to gas and probably boil, the locker was full of other electronics and relays etc, something in the locker must have caused a spark, probably a relay, and all four batteries exploded, they blew the doors of the locker open, caused over £3000 worth of damage to the electronics, and caused damage to the outer hull, as the locker was on the hull side, the total claim for damage came to over £11000!!, this was all caused by the fitment of the wrong charger by the owner, the insurance company rejected the claim, because of this.
Now imagine,,,, the same scenario in your caravan, its night time and your child is asleep above the battery locker,???
I have always said " if a jobs worth doing do it right" like most people would agree, but most importantly, make sure its safe.
Your comments could be partially true, but not in the sense that you say, some cheap chargers fitted in the past, to keep costs down, are basically simple power supplies, and not really a charger at all, but most importantly they are regulated by the electronics to 13.8v, with varying current, which will output to very little or even nothing, so these power supplies act as a very simple 2 stage charger but not in the same way, and do not fully charge the battery properly.
Today caravan manufacturers are fitting better multi stage chargers, as the need for more power because of all the extra gadgets we have today, even solar panels,(which I also fit),
If you want to fit any old charger, because you don't want or need a proper one, then that's entirely up to you, so good luck and carry on, but please do not encourage other people to do the same
Always think safety.

 

[Gafferbill]

Caravans can be fitted with either of two types of 12 volt battery charger by the manufacturer.

One type supplies a steady 13 .8 volts and the other can automatically vary the voltage supply between 14.4 volts and 13 volts depending on the state of charge of the battery.

Both types prevent the battery giving off harmful and dangerous Hydrogen gas if the battery is of the Lead Acid type.

stevesnrs pointed out the dangers of using a non regulated simple vehicle battery charger to charge a caravan battery.
These produce 14.4 volts continuously and must be removed from a battery when it is charged or gassing will occur.
This is is why such chargers must be used in well ventilated areas and for this reason I would open the caravan battery box door if using one on a caravan as a back up stop gap charging method.

I agree with what stevesnrs has written.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

I agree with what stevesnrs has written.

I don't because until his intervention no-one had mentioned or even inferred that a simple stand alone car charger should be used to perminantly charge the vans battery, all the advise was based on the multi stage Aldi unit (which I have) for a temporary fix if the vans unit goes down. I fully endorse this view. because of two reasons. the multi stage unit will not overcharge the battery and cause gassing and two once the vans unit goes down it no longer supplies power to the 12v van systems. once the battery is flat your stuffed,
I use mine periodically to fully charge the battery after it has been on EHU as the van charger only fills it to 80% capacity then stops. the multi stage then tops it up to full and goes into a float mode.
secondly I have been around boats most of my life. exept for houseboats none has ever had a traction battery fitted as this is the wrong type most use lead acid and are charged by the engine alternator, same as a car,
traction batteries are used to supply power when there is no other power source available and are designed to be charged and then run flat and recharged as required, no wonder the insurance would not pay out you cannot keep this type of battery on constant charge. as it destroys the internal structure of the cells which shorts out and boils.
this type of battery would never be suitable for caravan use and as such to use in this context is nonsense.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Steven,

This not about one upmanship, its about factual accuracy. There are many topics that continually reappear in forums, so even if the subject has been done to death once or many times they can often reoccur, possibly because new forumites have not seen the earlier topics. So we have to be magnanimous and try again.

With the best will in the world, no one on the forum could possibly have known your background or experience of chargers because you had not told us, Whilst we often have to second guess what some correspondents are trying to find out or tell us, we are not mind readers. But I must also point out that as the forum uses nicknames, we have no way of knowing if what people write is actually the truth, We have all been suckered with some posters making claims which have ultimately proven untrue We have to have healthy dose of suspicion until we have better understanding of the poster.

In respect of this thread, I think there may have been something of a misunderstanding. You appear to be relatively new to the forum so you may not be aware that the Aldi battery chargers have gained a lot of followers, because they offer an effective but much cheaper version of the CTEk multistage chargers. It is well understood they are multistage, and given enough time do manage to fully recharge and maintain both leisure and more conventional car type batteries.

As far as I can see there was no suggestion in the thread the caravans built in charger was going to be replace by a cheap simple charger, the focus had only referred to the Aldi model.

As the vast majority of caravans in service will be post 1980 they will almost certainly be either of the fixed voltage 13.8V or by the more recent multistage you have mentioned.

I wholly agree safety should take the top priority, and from my own professional experience in LPG, Electrics and Electronics, I too have seen and had to report on DIY tampering mainly on gas systems some with near fatal results. So like you I can't condone unsafe practices. By all means point out the unsafe practice or suggestion, but it also helps to explain why its unsafe.

 

[Gafferbill]

colin-yorkshire..........if you read what stevesnrs posted you will have to agree every that every word is correct if you have knowledge of the subject.

The OP never said he intended to send a smart charger to his daughter in France for use as a stop gap measure.
The OP actually said he was intending to send an Aldi type charger.
That could mean anything unless you have knowledge of the type of charger Aldi sell.

I was aware that stevesnrs did not realise that the OP was likely to be referring to the smart charger that Aldi have made popular because of it's low retail price.

Nevertheless I thought stevesnrs post made a valid safety point for a wider forum audience.
IMO he did not deserve the comments that followed especially as he made it perfectly clear he was refering to simple car battery chargers.

 

[stevesnrs]

Colin,
Please read the following link
These are the batteries I mentioned, I have used dozens of them.
http://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/225ah-trojan-t105-narrowboat-battery/

 

[Dustydog]

http://www.apuljackengineering.co.uk/about.htm
Back to Derek the OP.

I too have an Aldi copycat ctek type smart charger which we carry just in case.
Hopefully your son will be able to isolate the Nordie and use the Aldi to continu his hols.
Talk to Paul Wright on the above link to Apuljack and he will organise a permanent resolution for you.
I assume the Abbey is out of warranty so imo the Apuljack route is best.
Some very wise words on here. I hope they have helped you.

 

[Sproket]

For those who don't know about the Aldi chargers and how they work, read the note on the bottom of page 15

 

[colin-yorkshire]

colin-yorkshire..........if you read what stevesnrs posted you will have to agree every that every word is correct if you have knowledge of the subject.

The OP never said he intended to send a smart charger to his daughter in France for use as a stop gap measure.
The OP actually said he was intending to send an Aldi type charger.
That could mean anything unless you have knowledge of the type of charger Aldi sell.

I was aware that stevesnrs did not realise that the OP was likely to be referring to the smart charger that Aldi have made popular because of it's low retail price.

Nevertheless I thought stevesnrs post made a valid safety point for a wider forum audience.
IMO he did not deserve the comments that followed especially as he made it perfectly clear he was refering to simple car battery chargers.

hi Bill,
yes I did read every word and still do not agree, the poster made assumptions that were not based on knowledge of the product and gave a senario that could not happen as traction batteries are totally unsuitable for caravan use.
I could go into more detail but to be honest I cannot be bothered so just leave it at that.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

Colin,
Please read the following link
These are the batteries I mentioned, I have used dozens of them.
http://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/225ah-trojan-t105-narrowboat-battery/

humm ok for a narrowboat but not a van, so please tell me at 6v and 26kg each what was the last van you fitted them to.

 

[stevesnrs]

Colin
I'm sorry but you don't seem to read things properly!!
I never said I had ever fitted these to a caravan, read my statement again.
I said they were fitted to the boat, and that I have fitted dozens of these,
They were fitted to horseboxes, and boats.
It clearly states on the link, that these are traction type batteries,and lead acid, and ARE suitable for use on boats,
You only have to look on any boat forum to see how widely used and popular these batteries are, so it also surprises me that you don't know of these batteries as a "long term boat user" I see them all the time, so I'm afraid that your comment to try to undermine me are completely incorrect, and your statement about these batteries is also incorrect, which leads me to believe you don't know what you are talking about, or you are just digging yourself out of a hole?
The scenario was aimed at the lead acid leisure battery fitted to caravans, which would act in the same way as the lead acid traction batteries, as far as gassing is concerned.
But you took it upon yourself to misinterpret the information, by assuming I meant traction batteries, which I did not say at all, I don't know where you are going with these remarks, but I suggest that in future you get your fact right before commenting in the way that you do!

 

[xtrailman]

One up man ship in action, as the Dragons say, I'm out.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi Steve.
before things get out of hand requiring the intervention of the moderators, lets get things clear.
do not assume that everyone who does not have a physics degree or be a master craftsman is a joey.
and don't assume that someone who disagrees with you does not know what they are talking about either.
traction batteries or EVB's serve a particular purpose, notably in situations where they are rapid charged and discharged over a long period as in such things as forklifts, platforms ect, I can see how their use may be suitable on a houseboat where they are charged at the mooring overnight, and then run down over the next few days, however this is a mile away from the way caravanners use their batteries even if use off grid.

the comment about fitting 50kg of batteries to a caravan was meant as a joke obviously my sense of humour is not the same as yours definitely not a candidate for the woosie club. (another joke).

and yes I have been around boats most of my life of the power boat and fishing variety none has used traction batteries instead use starter batteries charged from the engines alternator. the only drain being starting and the odd light here and there.
I did in fact build an electric boat some 25years ago and yes used a pair of traction batteries because of the capacity and durability but the main problem was how to charge them while on the water even with a pair of high output alternators they failed and out in the middle of windermere there's nowhere to plug in a EHU (yet another joke).

you are still new to the forum and as such are a unknown to most, one has to be carefull when commenting about other users as this may appear to be arrogance and this is usually short lived one up man ship is silly.
as xtrailman says "im out"