Battery Passport 2027

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Nov 6, 2005
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Toyota revealed, they have developed an Ammonia powered engine, not a petrol, although it can run on Biofuel and Hydrogen.
Ammonia production is very energy intensive so just moves the pollution back to the power station - if/when we get an excess of renewable electricity this will be a practical way of retaining IC vehicles.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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Maybe everything that is sold should have a passport so we can cry in buckets when we see where it is made and how it is made and why it is so cheap. It is not just fossil fuel that is so evil! :ROFLMAO:
 
Mar 14, 2005
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I am for transparency about the production of all products, but I do think the process of simply applying a "passport" to the manufacturing of an EV is devicive, and I suspect lobbied for by the petrochemical industry, because it is not in dispute the manufacture of present day EVs does produce more unwanted issues than an equivalent ICE. By only focusing on the manufacturing, the most significant benefits of EV's are taken out of the picture, and that is the significant improvement in energy efficiency when in use, and the much lower pollution created overall as the number of miles increases, even considering non renewable sources of electricity generation. The passport should also include the costs and emissions for covering 100K miles.

If ICE vehicles also had the passport applied, just based on manufacturing costs, they would compare favourably, but if the passport included the energy source and amount needed to cover the same 100K miles, the balance changes to favour EV's.

As the availability of green power improves, that would will make the balance lean even more in favour of EV's

I am also very concerned at the continual belief that new manufactured fuels for IC engines will be the main solution to reducing transport generated pollution. Granted that such fuels are still in their development stages, but at the moment they are massively expensive to produce, and from information I have seen, all use more energy to create than they contain. Even if they only use electricity from renewables, the excess power needed would be far more efficiently used if it were put into EV batteries to power vehicles.

Renewable fuels don't change the inherently inefficiency of ICE engines and the waste heat the produce. The waste heat should also be considered as an adverse emission. Manufactured fuels doesn't prevent the engine producing the particulate contaminations that high compression engines always produce when a fuel is burnt at high pressures.
 
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Jul 18, 2017
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I know I have been knocking the passport idea as ridiculous, but in all seriousness if they are going down the passport route, then it should be applied to everything that is imported and it should be mandatory for retail websites at a minimum to display the source of the goods i.e. country of manufacture etc. This would allow the consumer to be better informed and make the correct decision.
 
Nov 6, 2005
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I know I have been knocking the passport idea as ridiculous, but in all seriousness if they are going down the passport route, then it should be applied to everything that is imported and it should be mandatory for retail websites at a minimum to display the source of the goods i.e. country of manufacture etc. This would allow the consumer to be better informed and make the correct decision.
"Country of Manufacture" isn't always helpful as in reality it's the country of final assembly but components and sub-assemblies may come from different countries and indeed the raw materials used to make those may come from yet more countries.

Cars sold in USA have to have more information provided than cars sold in EU/UK but in this case I believe it's a simple percentage local input that's shown.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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"Country of Manufacture" isn't always helpful as in reality it's the country of final assembly but components and sub-assemblies may come from different countries and indeed the raw materials used to make those may come from yet more countries.

Cars sold in USA have to have more information provided than cars sold in EU/UK but in this case I believe it's a simple percentage local input that's shown.
TBH I was thinking more of clothing and food where child labour is employed and also where people are paid a pittance yet the finish goods in the UK can cost hundreds of pounds. However I guess the same could be applied to many small electrical household goods where they have a German sounding name, but are manufactured in the Far east.
 

Sam Vimes

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Sep 7, 2020
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Having information about where things are made and grown might appear to be a good idea but I suspect that a good many folks make decisions on what to buy based on how much they cost.

Food in particular is one we're conscious of and would prefer to buy local produce but the supermarkets dictate what you can have, not what you want. Plus a good many people expect items to be available all year round. When I were a lad you only got the seasonal stuff.

Fortunately we are able to grow quite a lot of our own veggies.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Volvo state that their new EX30 manufacture emits 15 tonnes of CO2. Less than making their smallest ICE.

 
Jul 18, 2017
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Volvo state that their new EX30 manufacture emits 15 tonnes of CO2. Less than making their smallest ICE.

Of course they have to give the gullible public the marketing spiel otherwise they would not be selling vehicles. I think most people look at what a vehicle has to offer and the price because price is a big factor in their decision making. At present the majority of EV'S are sold to companies and not the general public.
 
Nov 16, 2015
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Of course they have to give the gullible public the marketing spiel otherwise they would not be selling vehicles. I think most people look at what a vehicle has to offer and the price because price is a big factor in their decision making. At present the majority of EV'S are sold to companies and not the general public.
I think now a lot more people are buying the smaller EV especially the MG's and the Vauxhall and smaller Peugeot, Citroen and Renault cars. Maybe companies are buying the larger cars Audi, BMW etc.
 
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Jul 18, 2017
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I think now a lot more people are buying the smaller EV especially the MG's and the Vauxhall and smaller Peugeot, Citroen and Renault cars. Maybe companies are buying the larger cars Audi, BMW etc.
Which small EV did you eventually buy! :ROFLMAO:
 
Nov 11, 2009
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I think now a lot more people are buying the smaller EV especially the MG's and the Vauxhall and smaller Peugeot, Citroen and Renault cars. Maybe companies are buying the larger cars Audi, BMW etc.
Around us the smaller ones are used as second cars, or purchased by retired folks. Although as a rough guess amongst the private ones it’s 2 to 1 in favour of PHEV.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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I know I have been knocking the passport idea as ridiculous, but in all seriousness if they are going down the passport route, then it should be applied to everything that is imported and it should be mandatory for retail websites at a minimum to display the source of the goods i.e. country of manufacture etc. This would allow the consumer to be better informed and make the correct decision.
"Country of manufacture" does not necessarily give any indication of the levels of pollution or violation of human rights a given product might have incurred. A product as complex as a car will have many items produced by different suppliers from many different countries, and that is not granular enough information to allow consumers to know either the environmental or human rights impact of product.

One of the points I was making, is that if two products can do the same job, such as ICE & EV, but only one is required to display it's environmental credentials, that immediately puts it at a disadvantage if the other type of vehicles is exempted from displaying the same type of information, even though in reality the exempted product is much harder on the environment on a lifetime evaluation.

The fact that most EV's presently manufactured do have more environmentally damaging manufacturing processes when compared to ICE vehicles BUT that is not the whole story, and it's the rest of the story where the real environmental impact is addressed which is why EV's have been (to date) the most cost effective way to address the environmental impact of motoring.

Having a "Passport" also implies that some products might be prevented from being exported or imported based on the information presented on the passport. If that simply relates to the country of manufacture, that would be a major commercial headache for otherwise legitimate products. Most countries already have import export controls, why complicate it further.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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I did use "i.e." which means for example and in this case it was for example "one of many things. I also refer to source of components which can be from many different countries. Apologies for not making that clear.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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I did use "i.e." which means for example and in this case it was for example "one of many things. I also refer to source of components which can be from many different countries. Apologies for not making that clear.
IE doesn’t mean for example. EG does
 
Oct 25, 2017
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Absolutely this. The emergence of BEV has given visibility to the source of materials to make the batteries in question. The fossil fuel industry has carefully and deliberately pushed the question of where lithium, cobalt and indeed electricity all come from to drive a sense of dirtiness into the EV story, prolonging the use of (and hence sale of and profit from) fossil fuel. At the same time there is no examination of where oil come from and, and how much is used.

Bringing in the battery passport and associated health measurement will hopefully restore some sort of perspective on the amount of Lithium (and other materials) used.

What gets my goat is the cries of how much damage is done in extracting the vast amounts of lithium needed to make EV batteries.
In 2023, total global Lithium production was 180,000 tonnes according to Statista.
Yet total global oil production in 2023 amounted to 81,804,000 barrels per day. That's about 10,760,000 tonnes of oil _per day_ or just under 4 Billion tonnes per year.
180,000 tonnes vs 4,000,000,000 tonnes.

Statista report this slightly differently as 4.39 Billion tonnes, in 2022.

And _all_ of the lithium is recyclable. None of the oil used as fuel is.
but IS all of it recycled?
 
Jul 23, 2021
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but IS all of it recycled?
I can state for an absolute guaranteed fact that more lithium is recycled than diesel. But I agree that not _all_ lithium is recycled. EV batteries sold in the EU (and UK) are legally required to be recycled at the end of life. To date very few have been, mainly because they are still in use.

IMHO, a bigger issue is the collection and recycling of small batteries, AA, phones, portable items. These tend to get discarded, though many councils recyclers have strong messaging about not putting them into landfill bins. Big items, like car batteries will have far more scrutiny placed on them at end of life.
 
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Jul 18, 2017
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Nothing to do with EVs and hybrids, but rather the quality of lithium batteries that you can buy Online. Only this morning I was reading about a family that was destroyed due to a lithium battery catching fire. The mother and 2 kids died in the fire and the father was in hospital in the coma for a long time. They had bought a battery Online for their eBike. Very recently there was an issue at a London tube station with an eBike catching fire and I don't think it was not on charge

Apparently in the past year nearly 30 people have died form fires due to lithium batteries bought Online as there is no control over the quality of lithium battery imports. Looking at a video of a lithium battery on fire, it was as bad as a flame thrower.

We have two lithium batteries that are on charge 24/7, but are unplugged if we go away for a long weekend or holiday. One is a large battery for the cordless self propelled lawnmower and the other a lot smaller for the cordless strimmer.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Nothing to do with EVs and hybrids, but rather the quality of lithium batteries that you can buy Online. Only this morning I was reading about a family that was destroyed due to a lithium battery catching fire. The mother and 2 kids died in the fire and the father was in hospital in the coma for a long time. They had bought a battery Online for their eBike. Very recently there was an issue at a London tube station with an eBike catching fire and I don't think it was not on charge

Apparently in the past year nearly 30 people have died form fires due to lithium batteries bought Online as there is no control over the quality of lithium battery imports. Looking at a video of a lithium battery on fire, it was as bad as a flame thrower.

We have two lithium batteries that are on charge 24/7, but are unplugged if we go away for a long weekend or holiday. One is a large battery for the cordless self propelled lawnmower and the other a lot smaller for the cordless strimmer.
I never leave my power tool or vacuum batteries on charge 24/7 always turn them off when they are fully charged as they don’t really loose any charge when off. Same with phone, cameras and tablets etc they are never left on when we leave the house or overnight either. These are all batteries from reputable manufacturers.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Linked to the Passport discussion it is encouraging that newer solid state cells are being rigorously developed by a number of companies including Toyota and Nissan. Here is a US development out for testing with motor makers which holds the promise of 30% extra capacity compared to the best batteries available. Predicted ranges of up to 600 miles.


 
Oct 25, 2017
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I can state for an absolute guaranteed fact that more lithium is recycled than diesel. But I agree that not _all_ lithium is recycled. EV batteries sold in the EU (and UK) are legally required to be recycled at the end of life. To date very few have been, mainly because they are still in use.

IMHO, a bigger issue is the collection and recycling of small batteries, AA, phones, portable items. These tend to get discarded, though many councils recyclers have strong messaging about not putting them into landfill bins. Big items, like car batteries will have far more scrutiny placed on them at end of life.
Yup our Council recently stop kerbside collection of batteries (as they changed from boxes to bins)

Boxes had the advantage of the bin "technician" manually sorting, Bins just straight in the back
 
Nov 30, 2022
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Every litre of petrol bought has a (relatively) fixed CO2 content when burned in a car (about 2.3kg, and about 2.7kg for diesel). If we knew the CO2 cost to get it from the well to the pump and into the car, we could make a choice about how much we emit.

This is a serious question and I am not trying to be a smart R's but.........

How can a litre of fuel, that as a liquid, weighs around (or in the case of petrol less than) a kilogram, when burnt produce over 2kg of a gas?, Seems somewhat counter intuitive to me.

like I said, this is meant as a serious question not anything snarky.,
 
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