Hiya
If propane is better to use in Winter due to it not freezing, why isn't it used all year round?
Thanks in advance
If propane is better to use in Winter due to it not freezing, why isn't it used all year round?
Thanks in advance
Butane vs Propane
- Thread starter JulieandStuart
- Start date
Damian
Moderator
There are a few reasons why one is better than the other depending on the temperature.
Butane has a Calorific Value of 121.8 whereas Propane is lower at 93.1, so in the right temperature you would use less Butane to achieve the same heating value.
The cylinder pressure of Butane is lower than Propane due to Propane being 2 times heavier than air and Propane being 1.5 times heavier than air.
On pre 2004 vans where the regulator is cylinder mounted this would not make any difference as the pressure of the gas in the hose would be limited to 28mb(Butane) or 37mb(Propane), but with the new bulkhead regulators the pressure in the hose is the cylinder pressure which with Propane can be extremely high, especially in warm weather, so the right kind of pigtail is ESSENTIAL to withstand the pressure.
The ideal would be use Butane in the summer and Propane in winter, but many use one type all year , maybe to save thinking about it, but maybe they should think more!!
Butane has a Calorific Value of 121.8 whereas Propane is lower at 93.1, so in the right temperature you would use less Butane to achieve the same heating value.
The cylinder pressure of Butane is lower than Propane due to Propane being 2 times heavier than air and Propane being 1.5 times heavier than air.
On pre 2004 vans where the regulator is cylinder mounted this would not make any difference as the pressure of the gas in the hose would be limited to 28mb(Butane) or 37mb(Propane), but with the new bulkhead regulators the pressure in the hose is the cylinder pressure which with Propane can be extremely high, especially in warm weather, so the right kind of pigtail is ESSENTIAL to withstand the pressure.
The ideal would be use Butane in the summer and Propane in winter, but many use one type all year , maybe to save thinking about it, but maybe they should think more!!
Hi Julie & Stuart,
Very few people bother to change their bottles winter/summer and with the advent of Calor/BP light bottles I notice fewer are using butane and keep propane on their vans all the time. As long as your connections are in good order I do not think there is anything to worry about.
Good luck.
JTS.
Very few people bother to change their bottles winter/summer and with the advent of Calor/BP light bottles I notice fewer are using butane and keep propane on their vans all the time. As long as your connections are in good order I do not think there is anything to worry about.
Good luck.
JTS.
This [http://www.caravanningnow.co.uk/caravanning/faqgas.htm] is generally a balanced and informative article.
Despite it being updated only a few days ago it has not importantly picked up on the change some years ago to 30 mbar pressure regulation for both Butane and Propane. A feature required on all modern caravans.
Earlier systems did have the quoted 28 mbar for Butane and 37 mbar for Propane and this compensated for the difference in the gases calorific value in equipments, without the need to change the jet size when changing between gas type.
The change to 30 mbar means that more heat is available from a modern item of equipment operating on Butane. Getting heat is why you have purchased the gas and because generally Butane kg for kg is also cheaper becomes an argument for using it when the ambient permits.
Clearly the hassle of changing might be too much for some users, particularly those who don't do much camping and definitely those who don't winter and shoulder season camp.
Despite it being updated only a few days ago it has not importantly picked up on the change some years ago to 30 mbar pressure regulation for both Butane and Propane. A feature required on all modern caravans.
Earlier systems did have the quoted 28 mbar for Butane and 37 mbar for Propane and this compensated for the difference in the gases calorific value in equipments, without the need to change the jet size when changing between gas type.
The change to 30 mbar means that more heat is available from a modern item of equipment operating on Butane. Getting heat is why you have purchased the gas and because generally Butane kg for kg is also cheaper becomes an argument for using it when the ambient permits.
Clearly the hassle of changing might be too much for some users, particularly those who don't do much camping and definitely those who don't winter and shoulder season camp.
There's no hassle changing for me. I have a butane and a propane on a changeover switch so it takes only 10 seconds to switch off the butane, open the propane and turn the changeover valve. I've only ever had one very cold night away where the butane wouldn't work so used propane. Otherwise we use butane all the time, only switching to propane when the butane runs out until it's replaced the next day then it's back to butane again. I do find it burns hotter too. The toast does quicker and the fire gets hotter.
Hello Damian,
Just a small correction, the bottle pressure is not a function of the density of the gas. The density will determine the volume and the weight. The pressure is a function of the dew point and the temperature
Technically butane does burn hotter in so far the flame temperature range is 1991C compared to 1980C for propane or 0.5% difference. So the practical temperature difference is virtually insignificant. Butane will appear to heat items more quickly, because it has a greater calorific value so it provides more heat per unit volume than propane.
http://www.altenergy.com/Technology/LPGProperties.htm#TheoreticalCompatible Mixtures
The idea of having both butane and propane on a changeover valve sounds to me like the way to go, like you say fixes the messing with a spanner when the butane runs out at midnight and allows you to run on propane for those relatively few nights when the temperature falls below zero.
Does the changeover valve need to be a special one that matches both gases? What make/type do you use? Do I take it that you simply run the appropriate pigtail from the valve to the bottle?
Really sounds like a cool (excuse the pun) idea !!
Does the changeover valve need to be a special one that matches both gases? What make/type do you use? Do I take it that you simply run the appropriate pigtail from the valve to the bottle?
Really sounds like a cool (excuse the pun) idea !!
Hi there
I was not aware you could link Butane and Propan together even with a manual change over switch because of saftey issue Pressure would be one.
Could someone put light on this. If you can do this where do you purchase the change over tap for the new bulkhead reg,s .
I was not aware you could link Butane and Propan together even with a manual change over switch because of saftey issue Pressure would be one.
Could someone put light on this. If you can do this where do you purchase the change over tap for the new bulkhead reg,s .
Hi there
I was not aware you could link Butane and Propan together even with a manual change over switch because of saftey issue Pressure would be one.
Could someone put light on this. If you can do this where do you purchase the change over tap for the new bulkhead reg,s .
I was not aware you could link Butane and Propan together even with a manual change over switch because of saftey issue Pressure would be one.
Could someone put light on this. If you can do this where do you purchase the change over tap for the new bulkhead reg,s .
Yes there is both a safety and legal issue, The safety side is that as has been pointed out, butane and propane have very different vapour pressures. If both types of gas bottle are connected together, the propane will back feed into the butane container.
It is illegal to have both types ofgas opperating on the same system.
The solution is to ensure the change over valve has the function to break before make.
It is illegal to have both types ofgas opperating on the same system.
The solution is to ensure the change over valve has the function to break before make.
Hi,
Had my caravan converted to propane in January by my dealer fitting the current specification bulkhead mounted regulator. One of the benefits from what I could find out at the time and from the dealer is that the regulator takes either propane or butane, all that you need to do is attach the pigtails to match the gas. My regulator has two inlets and therefore two pigtails; both of mine are propane so that I can use the caravan in sub zero temps (and I have had problems with butane in sub zero) but you could attach a propane pigtail and a butane pigtail for this set up if you wanted. However, I like the volume and lightness of the Calorlite propane cylinders so just plan on using these all year round.
Had my caravan converted to propane in January by my dealer fitting the current specification bulkhead mounted regulator. One of the benefits from what I could find out at the time and from the dealer is that the regulator takes either propane or butane, all that you need to do is attach the pigtails to match the gas. My regulator has two inlets and therefore two pigtails; both of mine are propane so that I can use the caravan in sub zero temps (and I have had problems with butane in sub zero) but you could attach a propane pigtail and a butane pigtail for this set up if you wanted. However, I like the volume and lightness of the Calorlite propane cylinders so just plan on using these all year round.
Whilst we are on the topic of Calorlite, how much Propane do these bottles hold? do they still hold 6kg or is there now an increase due to the lightness of the bottle. I am made to believe that both gases are sold by volume,
best regards, Martin
best regards, Martin
"It is illegal to have both types ofgas opperating on the same system.
The solution is to ensure the change over valve has the function to break before make."
As far as I'm aware, it IS a break before make changeover. It was fitted by my dealer after asking what type of caravanning we would be doing. When we said we plan to caravan all year round, they recommended both Butane and Propane on a changeover. Works very well and no hassles at all.
The solution is to ensure the change over valve has the function to break before make."
As far as I'm aware, it IS a break before make changeover. It was fitted by my dealer after asking what type of caravanning we would be doing. When we said we plan to caravan all year round, they recommended both Butane and Propane on a changeover. Works very well and no hassles at all.
Have a shufti at this site, the changeover valves are fitted with a non return valve so that you can change the empty cylinder whilst the system is still in service
http://www.gaslow.co.uk/pages/c_s2_2.htm
http://www.gaslow.co.uk/pages/c_s2_2.htm
Sorry Richard
You cannot fit Propan and butan together. With the new Bulkhead regulator the pigtails are unregulated before they get to the regulator thus two different working pressures. It has to be two Propan or Two Butane.Check with Calor gas if you do not beleave me.
You cannot fit Propan and butan together. With the new Bulkhead regulator the pigtails are unregulated before they get to the regulator thus two different working pressures. It has to be two Propan or Two Butane.Check with Calor gas if you do not beleave me.
I have been contemplating changing to propane for some time now, not because of low temperature problems (we did not have any problems with butane earlier in the year even though the site taps were frozen) but I would like to reduce nose weight and the only light weight bottles at the moment seem to be propane. Does anone know if calor are likely to bring out a calorlite butane bottle.
"You cannot fit Propan and butan together. With the new Bulkhead regulator the pigtails are unregulated before they get to the regulator thus two different working pressures. It has to be two Propan or Two Butane.Check with Calor gas if you do not beleave me."
Absalutely, but why have both cylinders turned on at the same time? If you do then both bottles will probably run out at the same time! I only use Propane and only have one cylinder turned on at a time, when one runs out/low just turn off the empty/low cylinder then turn on the full one. It is physically possible to have both Butane and Propane pigtails connected but both should not be turned on at the same time for safety/legal reasons - not "break before make" so not sure if would meet legal requirements.
Absalutely, but why have both cylinders turned on at the same time? If you do then both bottles will probably run out at the same time! I only use Propane and only have one cylinder turned on at a time, when one runs out/low just turn off the empty/low cylinder then turn on the full one. It is physically possible to have both Butane and Propane pigtails connected but both should not be turned on at the same time for safety/legal reasons - not "break before make" so not sure if would meet legal requirements.
Hello Richard
The system you are suggesting, relies on the operator to make sure that the initial supply bottle is turned off before the secondary bottle is opened. If the wrong operating sequence is used, it is possible and therefore assumed to be probable that at some time both bottles would be able to be connected simultaneously. If the bottles are of different gas types that is both dangerous and illegal.
The operation of a break before make valve, ensures that only one bottle can supply the installation at any time. By changing over the valve ensures the supply bottle 'A' is isolated before the Bottle 'B' is allowed to admit gas to the system, and vice-verca.
The system you are suggesting, relies on the operator to make sure that the initial supply bottle is turned off before the secondary bottle is opened. If the wrong operating sequence is used, it is possible and therefore assumed to be probable that at some time both bottles would be able to be connected simultaneously. If the bottles are of different gas types that is both dangerous and illegal.
The operation of a break before make valve, ensures that only one bottle can supply the installation at any time. By changing over the valve ensures the supply bottle 'A' is isolated before the Bottle 'B' is allowed to admit gas to the system, and vice-verca.
I can not see why anyone would go through the practice of having two types of gas. The difference in the temperture obtained by using butane is minimal and I do not think you would even notice it. As it recognsed that propane is used in the winter then I would suggest it is used all year round. The other advantage is you have lightweight bottles wether you use Calor Lite or the BPLite bottles. Safer as well, no chance of mixing gasses.In all more convenient all round.
DO NOT PLAY WITH GAS.
Good luck.
JTS.
DO NOT PLAY WITH GAS.
Good luck.
JTS.
I forgot to add what the primary dangers are:-
Butane has a lower vapour pressure than Propane. Calor gas and all other UK suppliers fit valve gear to their bottles that incorporate a safety blow off valve, which is designed to relive the pressure in bottle if it get too high as the temperature rises. As the two gasses have different vapour pressures at any given temperature, the relief valves are set to match the gas type, with Butane being lower than Propane.
If a Butane bottle is filled or only partly filled with Propane, the vapour pressure in the bottle will be much greater than expected, and the pressure relief system may operate and vent gas at much lower temperatures than should be expected. This could happen with your manual change over arrangement.
It is not unknown for gas bottles to be removed from a caravan for duty elsewhere, for example with a BBQ, or blow torch etc. If the Butane bottle contains Propane and it is connected to an appliance that does not normally use a regulator, then the appliance may become dangerous because of excess pressure creating a larger flame that might flare out, and the gas pressure may overcome the seals in some valve gear causing an uncontrollable leak.
Butane has a lower vapour pressure than Propane. Calor gas and all other UK suppliers fit valve gear to their bottles that incorporate a safety blow off valve, which is designed to relive the pressure in bottle if it get too high as the temperature rises. As the two gasses have different vapour pressures at any given temperature, the relief valves are set to match the gas type, with Butane being lower than Propane.
If a Butane bottle is filled or only partly filled with Propane, the vapour pressure in the bottle will be much greater than expected, and the pressure relief system may operate and vent gas at much lower temperatures than should be expected. This could happen with your manual change over arrangement.
It is not unknown for gas bottles to be removed from a caravan for duty elsewhere, for example with a BBQ, or blow torch etc. If the Butane bottle contains Propane and it is connected to an appliance that does not normally use a regulator, then the appliance may become dangerous because of excess pressure creating a larger flame that might flare out, and the gas pressure may overcome the seals in some valve gear causing an uncontrollable leak.
"I can not see why anyone would go through the practise of having two types of gas. The difference in the temperature obtained by using butane is minimal and I do not think you would even notice it."
Sorry to disagree because as I already mentioned, I notice the difference. The toast cooks far quicker because the grill gets hotter. Not that cooking toast would be reason enough to use Butane over Propane! LOL Just an example which proves it burns hotter. More importantly, the gas fire burns hotter and so seems to heat up quicker. The Butane lasts longer and is therefore more cost effective than Propane. Or at least, it IS in our caravan with our fire.
Since the system was fitted by our dealer when we collected the caravan, we know it's safe and approved with no chance of mixing gasses. And (at least in the current caravan anyway) there's no way we would want to change it to 2X Propane since we're happy with the current system.
Maybe it could be different on other 'vans, I dunno. I've often read on forums how inefficient their gas fire or fridge is when used on gas yet I find all our gas appliances to be really efficient, especially more so on Butane than Propane. Or maybe we're just lucky.
Sorry to disagree because as I already mentioned, I notice the difference. The toast cooks far quicker because the grill gets hotter. Not that cooking toast would be reason enough to use Butane over Propane! LOL Just an example which proves it burns hotter. More importantly, the gas fire burns hotter and so seems to heat up quicker. The Butane lasts longer and is therefore more cost effective than Propane. Or at least, it IS in our caravan with our fire.
Since the system was fitted by our dealer when we collected the caravan, we know it's safe and approved with no chance of mixing gasses. And (at least in the current caravan anyway) there's no way we would want to change it to 2X Propane since we're happy with the current system.
Maybe it could be different on other 'vans, I dunno. I've often read on forums how inefficient their gas fire or fridge is when used on gas yet I find all our gas appliances to be really efficient, especially more so on Butane than Propane. Or maybe we're just lucky.
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