C&CC Weight Spreadsheet and Noseweight

[otherclive]

Well the "Tardis" is all ready to go on its "Index" to see what it is like to live in, before we take grandchild and dogs away for a longer stay. As with previous vans I have weighed and categorised everything and as I suspected the van will be volume not weight limited. (payload 260kg) Anyway as well as creating my own spreadsheet I found one on the C&CC website which does everything and only requires the user to insert weights and additional rows. However, one thing puzzled me in that the C&CC spreadsheet did not deduct noseweight from the calculated total weight. Whist I don't need to make such a deduction there will be those who have such a light caravan payload specification that some reduction allowance via noseweight could be helpful.

Any views on deduction noseweight from calculated payload?

If we can get away early I spotted a weigh bridge en route to see what their weighing comes up with. But at such a light weight they could be +/- 50kg anyway.

 

[pitpony]

Cliive,
I go along with the weighbridge route, I've recently change my car and caravan and for peace of mind because I had a motormover fitted I put the car and caravan fully laden on a local weighbridge, if VOSA ever pull you have a weigh ticket to show them, but knowing VOSA it will be on to their weighbridge,

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

I put the car and caravan fully laden on a local weighbridge,

Did you also unhitch and drive the car off the bridge to get the van weight?

Our local private (but open to public) weigh bridge does the 2 weights in the fixed price of £6, as its in the docks and they cater for lorries that are unloaded in one direction and loaded in the other.

 

[pitpony]

I put the car and caravan fully laden on a local weighbridge,

Did you also unhitch and drive the car off the bridge to get the van weight?

Our local private (but open to public) weigh bridge does the 2 weights in the fixed price of £6, as its in the docks and they cater for lorries that are unloaded in one direction and loaded in the other.

Sir WC,
I certainly did and the good chap on the weighbridge will weigh it for free if I don't want a ticket,

 

[ProfJohnL]

Well the "Tardis" is all ready to go on its "Index" to see what it is like to live in, before we take grandchild and dogs away for a longer stay. As with previous vans I have weighed and categorised everything and as I suspected the van will be volume not weight limited. (payload 260kg) Anyway as well as creating my own spreadsheet I found one on the C&CC website which does everything and only requires the user to insert weights and additional rows. However, one thing puzzled me in that the C&CC spreadsheet did not deduct noseweight from the calculated total weight. Whist I don't need to make such a deduction there will be those who have such a light caravan payload specification that some reduction allowance via noseweight could be helpful.

Any views on deduction noseweight from calculated payload?

If we can get away early I spotted a weigh bridge en route to see what their weighing comes up with. But at such a light weight they could be +/- 50kg anyway.

I don't follow your thinking on this one :blink: .

On the basis that you are using the MTPLM of the caravan as your upper limit, then it has to include nose load, as MTPLM is the total weight of the uncoupled caravan not just the axle loading

 

[DaveA1]

Well the "Tardis" is all ready to go on its "Index" to see what it is like to live in, before we take grandchild and dogs away for a longer stay. As with previous vans I have weighed and categorised everything and as I suspected the van will be volume not weight limited. (payload 260kg) Anyway as well as creating my own spreadsheet I found one on the C&CC website which does everything and only requires the user to insert weights and additional rows. However, one thing puzzled me in that the C&CC spreadsheet did not deduct noseweight from the calculated total weight. Whist I don't need to make such a deduction there will be those who have such a light caravan payload specification that some reduction allowance via noseweight could be helpful.

Any views on deduction noseweight from calculated payload?

If we can get away early I spotted a weigh bridge en route to see what their weighing comes up with. But at such a light weight they could be +/- 50kg anyway.

Where does this nose weight deduction vanish too???

 

[otherclive]

Sorry not clear on my part. I was trying to differentiate between the weight distribution on weigh bridge which is split between the two wheels and the nose wheel. So if for example the MTPLM is 1000kg and the axle rating is 1000kg and the noseweight is 75kg this effectively reduces the axle loading to 925kg. But as far as I am aware MTPLM is just what it says its the maximum allowable mass of the caravan. I have never used the noseweight on the car as a means of increasing payload anyway. This caravan has as much payload as we need at 260kg.

But I have had an interesting afternoon loading it and trying to achieve the 70-75kg noseweight. Even with the kitchen and toilet/shower at the back she's nose heavy. And with just one Calorlite in the front locker and my ramps it was exceeding the target. So there's a large mound sited just aft of the axle which will make it very difficult when we stop for "high tea"!! But I have deliberately aimed to maximise the payload whilst keeping within MTPLM, according to my calcs, so I can see what the weigh bridge figure looks like. I plan to have the whole outfit weighed ideally with myself, wife and dogs still in the car. Then unhitch and have the fully laden car weighed with us still in it. That way as the car weighs quite bit more than the caravan I should be further up the weighbridge range scale. The van's weight is then deduced by subtracting the cars weight from total outfit weight. Will has etc discuss this with the weighbridge operators.

I will have to watch it when returning home as my natural tendency is to lump heavy stuff like the awning into the car. If not careful the van's noseweight could exceed the 75kg max.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

I plan to have the whole outfit weighed ideally with myself, wife and dogs still in the car. Then unhitch and have the fully laden car weighed with us still in it. That way as the car weighs quite bit more than the caravan I should be further up the weighbridge range scale. The van's weight is then deduced by subtracting the cars weight from total outfit weight.

It would be easier, after weighing the train weight, to unhitch and drive the car off then weigh the van. Not what you're suggesting. You will be on the lower end of the weigh bridge scale in both cases, so it won't affect the accuracy much. The car or van will be less than 5% full scale.

 

[Jaydug]

Any views on deduction noseweight from calculated payload?

.

I don't understand how you can deduct the nose weight from the total weight. A couple of days ago I was weighing my caravan ready for going away. The total weight on the machine was reached by weighing the nose weight then each wheel in turn. I'm sure if I got pulled over for a weight check, that's how they would do it. My total indicated weight was 1128Kgs. My max weight 1160Kgs.

 

[otherclive]

Normally I would agree your approach. However, the cars MIS is 1577kg, its Max Permissible Mass is 2015kg and the GTW is 4015kg. So the car is not a limiting factor. With the van having a MTPLM of 1000kg its weight will be right down the range of most weigh bridges which tend to be 40-50 tonne. Not knowing the calibration curves for weigh bridges or the accuracy at the lower end, by weighing outfit, and then car, the masses weighed will be further up the weigh bridge curve and may be a bit more accurate. So as I said in my comments above its something I will discuss withe the weigh bridge operator. Does anyone have any data on weigh bridge accuracy in the sub 2000kg range?

Regarding Jaydugs comment it is possible to 'deduct'the noseweight from the total weight as this was how some caravan manufacturers gauged their tyre loadings. For example my last caravan, a Bailey, had a MTPLM of 1400kg and a total load for the tyres based on Load Index of 1420kg. When I contacted Bailey about the slim margin I was told that because the noseweight could be deducted from the caravan's total weight and the caravan's max speed only being 60mph, there was ample margin in the tyres. So noseweight reduces axle loading and tyre loading, which seem to be the area of interests to VOSA. Needless to say I uprated the tyres anyway.

Well I have now loaded up the van to its MTPLM of 1000kg so it will be interesting to see what the weigh bridge comes up with, and how accurate my weighing is.Plenty of space and capacity in the car to re-distribute anything if it should be over MTPLM. Of course I don't know how accurate the makers MIRO was as I obtained it from the brochure as the makers tally plate only gives MTPLM and noseweight. Contacting dealers hasn't provided much additional information either, although competent parts suppliers have been very helpful for equipment that the original owner had fitted over and above the makers specification.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Otherclive,

It's not a bad thing to weigh each item before you load it, and then by adding all the little bits up come to a calculated value for the whole caravan, but it rarely works out perfectly. The reason being, there will be a margin of error on every 'little' reading you take. Unless you know the margin of error then your final addition could be out by quite a margin. It could be either way, so the result is uncertain. In fact some of the errors may be in either direction so there might even be some cancelling, but who knows.

Personally I could not recommend relying on the spreadsheet method if you are working at 90% or above for determining your real weight because teh potential for errors could lead you to overload.

Ultimately the arbiter would be a calibrated weighbridge check.

Hello Jaydug.
I don't think you answered my last question about using the Reich caravan Weight Control device for measuring nose load. How exactly do you do it?

As for using a weighbridge for determining loads, You can get all the data you need to determine both car and caravans weights by the following method:

Drive teh coupled car over a axle load sensors and take three readings

Coupled Cars front axle load A
Coupled Cars rear axle load B
Caravans Axle Load C

Uncouple teh car and repeat the axle load checks but just for the car
Uncoupled Cars front axle load D
Uncoupled Cars rear axle load E

Each of the 5 individual results A,B,C,D & E should exceed the relevant maximum, axle loads set by the vehicle manufacturers.

A+B nor D+C should not exceed the cars GVW

(A+B ) - (D+E) is the nose load actually applied by the trailer on the car, and must not exceed ether the car or the caravans S value limits.

(A+B ) - (D+E) + C = the caravans total weight and must not exceed the MTPLM

Five reading and some basic maths and you have all teh relevant legal weight information you need.

 

[Beehpee]

Morning all, I have been reading this thread and have become more confused, puzzled etc etc as I have read through it, I don't expect anyone will agree with me but here I go on my morning rant, so re my current caravan and car combination, I bought the caravan with the knowledge that it was well within the weight limits and towing capabilities of my car, I towed it home empty and it towed perfectly fine, I have pretty much a regular list of essential items that I take each time we're away, varies depending on the time of year, length of stay etc, then there are the things I might take sometimes for particular trips, all of these have been weighed when loaded by taking the van to a weighbridge so as to give me a total weight of the van, I've also loaded the van in various ways and checked nose weights using the digital bathroom scales and a piece of tube that sits inside the towball socket, I've then got a fairly good idea of what I can load into the van and where and what is better put into the car, I did all this several months ago and don't plan on doing any of it again any time soon, I consider myself to be pretty intelligent but I caravan for pleasure and if I need to be a mathematical whizz kid to enjoy it I think I'd sooner give it up, I don't want to be having to consult spreadsheets for every item I put in the caravan or make regular trips to weigh bridges and checking umpteen different weights then getting out the laptop and consulting formulas to find out if I meet the specs that always seem to be open to so much interpretation that rarely when the subject of weights be it nose weights, miro, etc etc is discussed ever comes up with an easy way of complying with legislation, so I use my common sense, I don't overload either the car or the van, I don't speed when on route and I take as much care as possible when getting where I'm going, a relaxing few days away is not going to be spoilt by worrying about a few kg here or there, life's too short to be worrying about every detail, let's not even get into what the odds are of getting pulled by police or vosa and taken to a weighbridge, you hardly seem to see patrol cars lately, I'm not advocating flouting any laws or driving of unsafe outfits I'm just living in a more realistic world where common sense and a little bit of intelligence works, I've watched people packing up when leaving sites and I can't remember a single time, not even once have I seen anyone load up and check the nose weight before setting off, so rant over.

BP

 

[pitpony]

Which ever way you look at loading a caravan either by using bathroom scales or a 40 ton public weighbridge or mathematical formula, what dictates all of this is what the axle weight is plated for, ALKO axles have a plate on the axle which gives you the axle load, so this weight must not be exceeded.
Just to give you another example a 44 ton artic truck which will have six axles, the axles will be rated at over seven tons, so when you add up all the axle weights together it will give you a gross weight of 44 ton, take off the vehicles tare weight(empty weight) which I'm my case was 17 ton then you have your pay load of 27 ton , simple, and with regards to VOSA let me tell you my friend VOSA checks are spring up all over the place, there will be one near you shortly,

 

[ProfJohnL]

Which ever way you look at loading a caravan either by using bathroom scales or a 40 ton public weighbridge or mathematical formula, what dictates all of this is what the axle weight is plated for, ALKO axles have a plate on the axle which gives you the axle load, so this weight must not be exceeded.
Just to give you another example a 44 ton artic truck which will have six axles, the axles will be rated at over seven tons, so when you add up all the axle weights together it will give you a gross weight of 44 ton, take off the vehicles tare weight(empty weight) which I'm my case was 17 ton then you have your pay load of 27 ton , simple, ....

Hello Pitpony,
That may be true but forget that some HGV's and caravans can be down plated, and VOSA will of course check hose as well. Caravan manufacture (not the chassis manufacture) sets an MTPLM. which is the caravan equivalent to the plate and is frequently lower (but never higher) than the axles rated capacity.

 

[Jaydug]

Hello Jaydug.
I don't think you answered my last question about using the Reich caravan Weight Control device for measuring nose load. How exactly do you do it.

Sorry - I can't find your question. But here goes - to calculate the total weight of the van I ran the jockey wheel off a piece of board onto the weight control. Then the van's wheels were rolled onto pieces of board - one shorter than the other. The weight control was placed at the end of the short board and the wheel rolled on to it. When that reading was added to the previous, it was repeated for the other wheel. Another button press gives the total weight. However, to check the nose weight for towing, the weight control was placed under the coupling supported on a piece of board. As an additional check, I repeated the nose weight using the bathroom scales. There was a difference of 4Kgs between the two.

Edit. All this is in preparation for going away in two weeks.

 

[pitpony]

Which ever way you look at loading a caravan either by using bathroom scales or a 40 ton public weighbridge or mathematical formula, what dictates all of this is what the axle weight is plated for, ALKO axles have a plate on the axle which gives you the axle load, so this weight must not be exceeded.
Just to give you another example a 44 ton artic truck which will have six axles, the axles will be rated at over seven tons, so when you add up all the axle weights together it will give you a gross weight of 44 ton, take off the vehicles tare weight(empty weight) which I'm my case was 17 ton then you have your pay load of 27 ton , simple, ....

Hello Pitpony,
That may be true but forget that some HGV's and caravans can be down plated, and VOSA will of course check hose as well. Caravan manufacture (not the chassis manufacture) sets an MTPLM. which is the caravan equivalent to the plate and is frequently lower (but never higher) than the axles rated capacity.

Prof,
Quite right normally HGV will be down plated because it will be doing cap type loads all the time or on light loads like packaging, saves the Boss a lot of money, axle plated weights again no would ever legally say any kind of vehicle or trailer could carry more than it could,

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello BeehPee,

Although caravanning is considered a hobby, like it or not because caravans have to be towed by cars on the roads, there are regulations that must be observed. Just becasue you are on holiday does not mean the regulations go by the wayside and can be ignored. In general the regulations are not there to stop you from caravanning, but more to ensure that all road users have a common set of rules, and providing you play by the rules then the risks of having and incident are much reduced.

When you set out to decide on which car and caravan to get, you set some ground rules for yourself and then researched the market and came away with an outfit with which you are happy. Thats great and it's worked well for you.

One of your criteria seems to have been keeping well within the weight capacities of the car, and the caravan. By doing that you have already done your loading plan and are confident you are well within the limits. This gives you a greater degree of freedom about what to take and where to load it on each trip.

In practice you have done all the necessary checks which is what had been describe previously.

Whilst it is not a problem for you with your choices, loading can become a problem for others who do not have the same weight margins.

The OP is running quite close to the limits of the car, and as such he must take great care to check his loading. Notwithstanding the perceived chances of being stopped for a roadside check. A few kg here or there can be the difference between legal or illegal. But also the differences could be the factor that makes an outfit unsafe.

Everyone should check their weights so they know where they are, but if like you, they have large loading margin, then detail checks on every trip may not be necessary. But for anyone who discovers they are close to limits they should take great care to check and adjust to be certain they remain within limits.

When it comes to nose load it is widely recognised it's a major factor in towing stability. So why are people so lazy about checking it, yet they pay so much attention to towing ratio which is far less significant? Just because the Common practice of the fraternity is not to check nose load on every trip, does that make it right? NO.

Nose load which is inexorably linked to loading distribution is one area of towing that can change all too easily, especially as you usually accumulate new things over the course of a holiday that have to be stowed, and as it's so significant in terms of stability surely its one of the most important things that should be checked every trip, definitely for safety, if not for legality.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Jaydug.
I don't think you answered my last question about using the Reich caravan Weight Control device for measuring nose load. How exactly do you do it.

Sorry - I can't find your question. But here goes - to calculate the total weight of the van I ran the jockey wheel off a piece of board onto the weight control. Then the van's wheels were rolled onto pieces of board - one shorter than the other. The weight control was placed at the end of the short board and the wheel rolled on to it. When that reading was added to the previous, it was repeated for the other wheel. Another button press gives the total weight. However, to check the nose weight for towing, the weight control was placed under the coupling supported on a piece of board. As an additional check, I repeated the nose weight using the bathroom scales. There was a difference of 4Kgs between the two.

Edit. All this is in preparation for going away in two weeks.

Thankyou Jaydug,

I certainly asked someone to clarify how they used the Reich weight control in another thread quite recently, but they didn't reply and I apologize if it wasn't you.

However, Well done for keeping the wheels at the same height as the weight control device, I suspect you must have read previous postings on the issue. Also I note the method used to calculate total caravan mass and the nose load which is different to the jockey wheel load.

 

[Jaydug]

]

Well done for keeping the wheels at the same height as the weight control device, I suspect you must have read previous postings on the issue. .

No - I run the wheels off boards and onto the control simply because I find there's less chance for error.. To run the wheel off the ground onto the weight control, it immediately tips the machine towards the tread, sometimes giving a false reading.

 

[Gafferbill]

Edit. All this is in preparation for going away in two weeks.

........have a good trip.
We have a ferry booked for the end of January heading for The Pines.

 

[Jaydug]

Hello Bill. Yes - Leaving on the 31st. Then doing a slow journey down before turning up on Plot 121 around the 14th. Look forward to seeing you.