How can the CC nominate the VW jetta 2.0L as the tow car of the year as according to their own 85% guideline it can only tow about 10% of UK manufactured caravans? This car has a maximum braked weight of 1500 kg with a kerbweight of 1411kgs. I can see a lot of people falling foul of the law if they use this as a towcar as the car seems more than capable of towing 1500kg and no caravan sales person will advise the customer otherwise! I appreciate that the 85% is only a guideline.
Caravan Club tow car of the year
- Thread starter Surfer
- Start date
Whilst I can see your point there is a trend towards lighter vans and some people are downsizing as the costs of touring increase. I cannot see though why a car like the Jetta cannot win the overall TOTY competiton given that the marks are awarded independantly by each judge against the various criteria. Any other way would always see Disco 4 as TOTY! However I suspect that most people will make thier own minds up on the choice of car, as saloons in Jetta market sector tend to be minority sellers anyway. So a car such as the Golf, or Golf estate would probably be the most logical towcar choice given someone was tending towards the VW marque in this size range. Although noting the kerbweight of these latter cars your comments would still apply.
Will continue to tow with the car that almost won its class!
Will continue to tow with the car that almost won its class!
Hello Surfer,
Even sticking to the CC's guideline; that still gives a 1200Kg towed weight for the trailer. There are still a good number of caravan models that will work within that range. So I think you are being rather negative about the cars potential.
With reference to your statement:-
"I can see a lot of people falling foul of the law if they use this as a towcar as the car seems more than capable of towing 1500kg and no caravan sales person will advise the customer otherwise"
I can see no reason for any caravanner to be more likley to break the law with this car compared to any other with a similar towing capacity. The fact is that provided the weight of the towed trailer is within the manufacturers specified limit, then what law has been broken?
It is also a fact that the decision to tow any trailer is the drivers, and the driver is legally responsible to check his vehicle is compliant with all regulations - not the caravan sales person.
Even sticking to the CC's guideline; that still gives a 1200Kg towed weight for the trailer. There are still a good number of caravan models that will work within that range. So I think you are being rather negative about the cars potential.
With reference to your statement:-
"I can see a lot of people falling foul of the law if they use this as a towcar as the car seems more than capable of towing 1500kg and no caravan sales person will advise the customer otherwise"
I can see no reason for any caravanner to be more likley to break the law with this car compared to any other with a similar towing capacity. The fact is that provided the weight of the towed trailer is within the manufacturers specified limit, then what law has been broken?
It is also a fact that the decision to tow any trailer is the drivers, and the driver is legally responsible to check his vehicle is compliant with all regulations - not the caravan sales person.
A very good point, but the salesman also has a "Duty of care" towards the customer. If the customer is a novice that may not realise that by purchasing a caravan with a MTPLM of 1590kg they will be breaking the lawas they are thinking its a 2.o diesel and is powerful enough for the job.Prof John L said:
The car itself may be fantastic, but hardly worth beiong tow car of the year. I will only start believing in these tests when they do real world proper road tests and not around a test track.
Surfer,
Every professional has a duty of care, and even shop assistants must excersice care when offering opinions or advice where they may be perceived as having specialist or expert knowledge by the customer or receiver. However opinions and advice arec just that and the receiver is not obliged to follow that advice.
Regardless of above the offence of towing an illegal outfit lies at the feet of the driver. That offence is not reduced if the driver took bad advice. Unless the advice was malicious, or given in the execution of a fraud, the expert or adviser is not guilty of the driving offence.
If the car has a towing limit of 1500 and owner did buy a caravan with an MTPLM of 1590Kg, that is not illegal. It would only become illegal if the owner loads the trailer so its excedes the cars towing limit of 1500KG when hitched and on the road.
If an experts advice is wrong they may become liable if the user of their advice suffers a loss.
This ignores any other limit imposed by the drivers licence categories.
Every professional has a duty of care, and even shop assistants must excersice care when offering opinions or advice where they may be perceived as having specialist or expert knowledge by the customer or receiver. However opinions and advice arec just that and the receiver is not obliged to follow that advice.
Regardless of above the offence of towing an illegal outfit lies at the feet of the driver. That offence is not reduced if the driver took bad advice. Unless the advice was malicious, or given in the execution of a fraud, the expert or adviser is not guilty of the driving offence.
If the car has a towing limit of 1500 and owner did buy a caravan with an MTPLM of 1590Kg, that is not illegal. It would only become illegal if the owner loads the trailer so its excedes the cars towing limit of 1500KG when hitched and on the road.
If an experts advice is wrong they may become liable if the user of their advice suffers a loss.
This ignores any other limit imposed by the drivers licence categories.
Surfer,
you clearly have not seen the MIRA test facility, or read the CC information on what the tests comprise. Where on real roads can you tow at speeds far higher than 60mph, where can you do a controlled emergency stop repeatedly, where can you safely do an emergency lane change, hill start under controlled conditions. The tests give standardised comparators which real road tests are unlikely to do. The only variables tend to be weather, and the testers own judgement and weather you can do little about, and the variabilty of testers would be the same evn on real road tests. They give an indication and also are dependent on the manufacturers supplying new or modified cars, so as we all know there are other very good and very poor towcars out there. The TOTY is only a sample but just because it's not a 4x4 behemoth with a 8m twin axle doesn't invalidate the outcome. ( ex big outfit vanner myself)
At the end of the day people make their own decisions. One outcome that the results seem to show is that VAG make seemingly good tow cars in a range of weights and prices.
you clearly have not seen the MIRA test facility, or read the CC information on what the tests comprise. Where on real roads can you tow at speeds far higher than 60mph, where can you do a controlled emergency stop repeatedly, where can you safely do an emergency lane change, hill start under controlled conditions. The tests give standardised comparators which real road tests are unlikely to do. The only variables tend to be weather, and the testers own judgement and weather you can do little about, and the variabilty of testers would be the same evn on real road tests. They give an indication and also are dependent on the manufacturers supplying new or modified cars, so as we all know there are other very good and very poor towcars out there. The TOTY is only a sample but just because it's not a 4x4 behemoth with a 8m twin axle doesn't invalidate the outcome. ( ex big outfit vanner myself)
At the end of the day people make their own decisions. One outcome that the results seem to show is that VAG make seemingly good tow cars in a range of weights and prices.
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Martin24 said:
I'll second that !
Funny how the original post gets lost in other peoples' ramblings
Prof John L said:
But as per another post, if you are towing an emptry trailer weighing i9n at 600kg but with a plated MAM of 2000kg, you are illegal so why is it different for a caravan?
Surfer
I believe the post you refer to was one that you yourself made based on a report on another forum, and the subsequent discussion failed to ascertain the the nature of the offence.
http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/technical/plated-weights
However as you will recall the uncertainty related to whether the driver was accused of overloading the car (which given the details was actually very unlikely) or whether the drivers licence (cat B only) was not suitable for the outfit - which seems to be the more likely case.
The report certainly does not prove that the police or VOSA twist the regulations.
I believe the post you refer to was one that you yourself made based on a report on another forum, and the subsequent discussion failed to ascertain the the nature of the offence.
http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/technical/plated-weights
However as you will recall the uncertainty related to whether the driver was accused of overloading the car (which given the details was actually very unlikely) or whether the drivers licence (cat B only) was not suitable for the outfit - which seems to be the more likely case.
The report certainly does not prove that the police or VOSA twist the regulations.
Surfer, I think you are confusing the technical legality which is based on actual weights with driving licence restrictions which are based on maximum plated weights.Surfer said:
Hello Martin, and JonnyR
Please be specific on how exactly the original post got lost?
Jonny Rockstar said:
Please be specific on how exactly the original post got lost?
What I find funny is at how people always snuff these awards whenever a small car wins. Towcar of the Year awards means the best towcar OVERALL with all things considered. Its not about which car can pull the heaviest load. Off roader towers always seem to get very offended by Golf's etc winning the TCOTY competitions. Come on guys keep it real - it is about what is the most impressive in all areas of towing, handling, practicality etc etc within its capabilities.
I'm not going to get on my high horse but I really do find it amazing at just how naive some people are and lacking in common sense - if people think that potential newbies are going to buy a Golf sized car and pull a twin axle Coachman on the basis of this car winning overall then perhaps they shouldn't go caravanning and more to the point the critics shouldn't be caravanning either!!!
By the way, our Peugeot 307, Golf mk6, Alfa 147 have all been amazing towcars in terms of power and handling when pulling close to their limits. Maybe people should take note if they are downsizing their 'vans!
I'm not going to get on my high horse but I really do find it amazing at just how naive some people are and lacking in common sense - if people think that potential newbies are going to buy a Golf sized car and pull a twin axle Coachman on the basis of this car winning overall then perhaps they shouldn't go caravanning and more to the point the critics shouldn't be caravanning either!!!
By the way, our Peugeot 307, Golf mk6, Alfa 147 have all been amazing towcars in terms of power and handling when pulling close to their limits. Maybe people should take note if they are downsizing their 'vans!
Out of those 3 only the Golf could be considered as Peugeots are rubbish along with the Alfa. According to many owners both spend more time in the garage being repaired than on the road. LOL!toby_flack said:
Regarding the Jetta winning is strange as said it can only tow about 10% of UK manufactured caravans if you stay with the Caravan Club own towing guidelines!
Thank you Toby,
That is a very pragmatic view, (Though I cant agree about common sense which at least 50% of the time is wrong, I prefer good sense).
That is a very pragmatic view, (Though I cant agree about common sense which at least 50% of the time is wrong, I prefer good sense).
Fully agree with your view Toby which pretty well mirrors my earlier comments.
Now Surfer will probably fly into print when I say that his information is not correct with regards to reliability of Peugeots. Taking Warranty Direct reliability index of the top 100 cars based on warranty data the Peugeots come in at 11,19, 44, 50, 56,68. The Golf comes in at 81 and then 83. He is correct about Alfas but surprisingly they are not that bad but being worse than the Golf, but what price excitement, flair and some panache eh?
Now Surfer will probably fly into print when I say that his information is not correct with regards to reliability of Peugeots. Taking Warranty Direct reliability index of the top 100 cars based on warranty data the Peugeots come in at 11,19, 44, 50, 56,68. The Golf comes in at 81 and then 83. He is correct about Alfas but surprisingly they are not that bad but being worse than the Golf, but what price excitement, flair and some panache eh?
Really? would love to know why Alfa's spend so much time in garages surfer.Kindly could you be reprint what many owners have told you? Of course with reference to their diesel range,which one would assume would be the choice for towing.Surfer said:
Kind regards some one who has owned 3 diesel Alfas,3 diesel Fiats [same engines] and is laughing his soaks off at your expertise on said subject
Any form of Towcar Of The Year award is, as far as I'm concerned, nothing more than a PR exercise and of little practical relevance, whatever car wins. The reasoning behind the selection of the final winner seldom stands up to purely rational scrutiny. Everybody has their own priorities what is important to them when buying a towcar and there are probably as many different personal preferences as there are models on the market. Consequently, there cannot be just one winner that satisfies everybody's criteria and this makes the whole concept of Towcar Of The Year a farce. Like they say, "one man's meat is another man's poison".
That's why I'm convinced that, at least in some cases, the winner came first because the editor was treated to free holiday or unlimited use of the winning car for a couple of weeks or some other perk.
That's why I'm convinced that, at least in some cases, the winner came first because the editor was treated to free holiday or unlimited use of the winning car for a couple of weeks or some other perk.
Well there you go - if someone thinks that Alfa's are STILL rubbish after all these years then it's no wonder they have such narrow minded opinions about the TCOTY winners! I would bang on about how reliable and well made my 147 was that I owned from new for 8 years (and 120k miles) but I'd be wasting my breath lol - leopards never change their spots and all that!
Oh well.......
Oh well.......
I never said it did, was just bored to tears with the usual back and forth of supersilious heart attack enducing twaddle, back to sleep me thinks, lets face it what I've just ordered will do a perfectly fine job of towing the 'van, carting children around and be rather fun hopefully but will never win a Towcar award!!!!! Sorry forgot some of us aren't allowed an opinion or a bit of fun!!!!!!!!
Parksy
Moderator
Opinion is the foundation of debate Martin and if you have an opinion on the Caravan Clubs choice of Towcar of the Year then this is as good a place as any to express it.
Hello Martin,
May I apologise if my request for you to clarify your comment was unfounded. Unfortunately for you your (none constructive) contribution was immediately followed by Jonny who used your own posting as the basis of his own comment.
In my opinion the thread had not gone off topic, but had moved into a phase where a contributor had made a statement that did not concur with a legal matter and that needed to be clarified.
There are many threads that I find uninteresting, but I do not feel it is right to express my distaste of them, because to do so would be the equivalent of making a personal attack against someone's legitimate right to contribute in a constructive and open manner.
My question still stands though if Jonny wishes to answer.
May I apologise if my request for you to clarify your comment was unfounded. Unfortunately for you your (none constructive) contribution was immediately followed by Jonny who used your own posting as the basis of his own comment.
In my opinion the thread had not gone off topic, but had moved into a phase where a contributor had made a statement that did not concur with a legal matter and that needed to be clarified.
There are many threads that I find uninteresting, but I do not feel it is right to express my distaste of them, because to do so would be the equivalent of making a personal attack against someone's legitimate right to contribute in a constructive and open manner.
My question still stands though if Jonny wishes to answer.
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