Carbon Monoxide 'barbecue' death - follow up

[ValA.]

Tonight in a supermarket car park I had a very sobering experience. I was shopping with my daughter in law to be, and we followed a lady across the car park. We loaded our shopping, and as I went around to the driver's door I heard sobbing. I realised it was the lady we'd followed, sitting in her car, and sobbing heart-wrenchingly. She was on her own, and I gently knocked on her door. She wound down the window and I asked if she was alright. She sobbed 'No' and I asked if she wanted me to stay and talk to her - and she held my hand through the window.
She told me she was the mother of Hazel Woodhams - a police scenes of crimes officer - who died eighteen months ago in Norfolk when they took a 'cold' barbecue into their tent, and every so often it just hits her again - and seeing me with my daughter in law had brought it back to her! I talked to her for ages, about her lovely daughter, the fact that her boyfriend (who'd actually been arrested for her murder) almost lost his arm due to falling and laying on the arm for eight hours, causing oxygen to be cut off to a lot of the tissue, and the dreadful aftermath of her death and her understandable sorrow.
Hazel's German boyfriend, Roland, is now starting a campaign to bring it all back to public attention - and I promised that as campers/caravanners my OH and I, and our two sons, would do all we can to make sure sites display notices, and that we sometimes may need to warn the young that this is not a safe thing to do. I felt very saddened talking to her - and it brought home the human tragedy that this can bring.
Please, wherever you go this year, can you make sure that you check notices, warn youngsters next to you of the dangers, and you may just save another death and another mother sobbing her heart out in a supermarket car park.

 

[DeliDave_]

Hi Val,as a gas fitter I routinely do room co checks and recomend audible co detectors ,in fact there is a section on landlords certificate now,and customers seem to know very little about carbon monoxide and the fatal effects .Good luck on the campaign.

 

[ValA.]

Thanks Dave! Perhaps they ought to be on the recommended equipment list for campers and caravanners too! This week there were three deaths due to a faulty heater in a caravan or mobile home somewhere, and there have been several recent tragedies with barbecues in tents.

I think if everyone of us checks on notices on campsites, and perhaps buys a carbon monoxide alarm for our camping offspring, these tragedies might be largely avided.

 

[Surfer]

Most of these deaths seem to involve units other than touring caravans which suggests that a touring caravan is inherent safe. However as we, horror upon horrors, are considering rallies, maybe one of those Kidde detectors may be worth buying.

 

[ValA.]

Quite a few are in tents, and Hazel's boyfriend is a Forensic Archeologist, so a scientist and he's talking to tent manufacturers about how air flow in tents can be improved, so that Carbon Monoxide can't build up. Let's hope that by everyone passing on the message to someone else that these deaths can be avoided.

 

[Raywood]

I sem to remember the report of another fatility in the South of England last week. Our caravan is in for a service next week and I think I will buy a detector when I pick it up as it does look a worthwhile investment. I di remember that our original caravan had no heater and on a few occassions we ran a gas ring to warm it up for a short period, we do know far better now.

 

[Gybe]

Very very sad loss and especially so for the mother! We'll keep our eyes wider open in future.
If I remember correctly we did the long lesson at school when we were about 13 or 14. All about the dangers of carbon monoxide and how carbon monoxide binds to haemoglobin far better than oxygen so you die! In those days we were warned about gas water heaters in kitchens and bathrooms and other kinds of fires in confined places along with the importance of ventilation.
Two seemingly intelligent peoples deaths

Makes more questions for todays education and levels of common sense.
Even when I took up motorcycle touring in my late teens our tents had warnings that you shouldn't use any cookers inside the tents.

 

[ValA.]

You're right Gybe - it's a long time since I was a Girl Guide

but I remember the lesson 'No fuel source inside a tent!
Obviously the lessons aren't being learned!
Just say something - even if the advice is thrown back at you, better to have said something than done nothing at all!

 

[ProfJohnL]

it's a long time since I was a Girl Guide

but I remember the lesson 'No fuel source inside a tent!

The advice is of course sound, but I suspect it was to prevent fire hazards, rather than the less obvious CO poisoning.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi Val.
I do think Surfer has a point regarding touring vans, in that they are quite well ventilated as a unit, I don't say this lightly but, even in the olden days when caravans, had gas mantles, open gas fires, gas ring cookers CO poisoning never seemed to be a problem. nor was there a problem with awnings even though some of the early ones were quite crude. indeed even today where awnings are better made, the fridge still vents into the awning when if it is used on gas. I dont know about yours but my awning has more draughts than a open ended barn,
having said that there obviously is a problem somewhere probably with tents and maybe motorhomes that tend to be a little more air tight than the average caravan, and to this end any campaign, that warns of the dangers of CO poisoning, has to be a good thing.
as they say " I'm in ".and with this in mind last night I started a thread on CO poisoning on one of the Carp fishing forums I take part in, because I know that many Carp anglers "including myself" use gas lanterns and gas ring cookers, as well as disposable BBQ's while fishing, the temptation to bring them inside the Bivvy during a cold night could be catastrophic.
allthough there does not seem to have been any reported incidents in the press I don't think it has ever been mentioned either so I will extend this to wherever I have an involvement, a letter to the Carp magazine is soon to be drafted as well.
untill I read your post CO poisoning was something I had not considered at all in this context but in reality it is obvious

if only one fisherman is saved then it is worth the effort, "WELL DONE" and thank you.

 

[Surfer]

Quite a few are in tents, and Hazel's boyfriend is a Forensic Archeologist, so a scientist and he's talking to tent manufacturers about how air flow in tents can be improved, so that Carbon Monoxide can't build up. Let's hope that by everyone passing on the message to someone else that these deaths can be avoided.

Not sure why a manufacturer would want to improve air flow in tents as no one should be having a BBQ or similar indoors in a closed space. Surely a printed warning should be enough. Start increasing air flow and people will think it is licence to bring BBQs etc inside a tent.

 

[stuey]

hi there, i am also a gas engineer and as previously mentioned...co detectors are a must in every situation, also i have been working on the southern forest sites as a site assistant for the last 3 yrs where sadly a number of deaths associated with co happened ! BBQ's near and in the doorways of tents as well as BBQ's actually in tents and gazebos where the customers had put all the sides in (against site rules !! ( we were accused of being un-reasonable for moving peoples BBQ's away from their tent porches in the rain) another big problem where we also had a death was a partly converted vw transporter vans...policy was changed to 'cannot accept these for sleeping in' as they had insufficiant un-interupted air supply, an official conversion certification will hopefully be introduced this year ...with regards to extra vents in tents, put enough people in a rsetricted space and they burn up all the oxygen..thus producing carbon monoxide from re-breathing carbon dioxide...(remember apollo 13 ?) you dont need combustion to produce CO....all sites are gearing up this year with strict control on appropriate sleeping/occupation arrangements....vans;- no vents, no stay..... tents; 3 man tent, max 3 people, ....caravans 3 berth, 3 people inc under 5yr olds. sounds harsh but a holiday isnt a holiday if everyone didnt come back to talk about it

 

[Surfer]

Education is the answer as it appears we have a lot of people out there who have no concept of the dangers involving BBQ, fires ect in clsoed spaces. Best way to put it across is to refer to cigarette smoking a pub where the fumes were everywhere!

 

[ProfJohnL]

put enough people in a rsetricted space and they burn up all the oxygen..thus producing carbon monoxide from re-breathing carbon dioxide...(remember apollo 13 ?) you dont need combustion to produce CO

Sorry Stuey,
I don't think your information about rebreathing CO2 prodcuing CO is true.As far as I am aware mammals cannot produce CO. The APPOLO 13 mission the the problem was the reduction in the level of oxygen becasue of the excess build up of CO2.

 

[otherclive]

Prof is perfectly correct in that if you put people in a sealed environment then as the partial pressure of oxygen reduces there will be an increase in the partial pressure of carbon dioxide. Carbon monoxide is irrelevant in such situations. The symptoms of excess CO2 are more rapid breathing and headaches and are easily recognised when you are affected unlike the more assiduous effects of CO. Also CO2 effects are rapidly counteracted once the person is put into fresh air. Restricting tent occupancy of a 3 man tent to only 3 people shows a woeful disregard for the laws of bio-physics and was probably thought up by another 'elf and safety expert'. It is inconceivable that you can overcrowd a tent to such an extent that would pose a risk due to CO2, now methane maybe after all the camping suppers and its flammable too! At human respiratory rates tents can be considered breathable volumes. The risk from sources of CO however is real and shouldn't be ignored.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I need to add to my last post.
Thre a group of mamals that can increase the level of CO - smokers, as cigarettes/pipes/cigars smoulder and do not burn completely so they will produce some CO. but the levels will be quite low otherwise we would have heard of smokers being lilled by inhaling fatal doses of CO
I must also add tthat smoking is a mugs game, and should not be attempted by any sane or responsible person.

 

[Surfer]

I need to add to my last post.
Thre a group of mamals that can increase the level of CO - smokers, as cigarettes/pipes/cigars smoulder and do not burn completely so they will produce some CO. but the levels will be quite low otherwise we would have heard of smokers being lilled by inhaling fatal doses of CO
I must also add tthat smoking is a mugs game, and should not be attempted by any sane or responsible person.

Actually my reference to smoke and pubs is that smoke in a way is similar to carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide will float around like cigarette smoke however you can see cigarette smoke, but you can see carbon monoxide. Think of carbon monoxide being like smoke but invisible as both come from a form of fire.

 

[JonnyG]

I need to add to my last post.
Thre a group of mamals that can increase the level of CO - smokers, as cigarettes/pipes/cigars smoulder and do not burn completely so they will produce some CO. but the levels will be quite low otherwise we would have heard of smokers being lilled by inhaling fatal doses of CO
I must also add tthat smoking is a mugs game, and should not be attempted by any sane or responsible person.

Mmmm just wonder about double standards here,as a non smoker i will throw what would be clearly the second stone,if it was not for the fact i use fossil fuels with known links in their different uses,[but apperently the risk is worth it], to being hazardous to humans abit not on the same scale,for now as smoking but scale shouldnt matter if one is using laugauge like sane or responsible in a sentence,after what sane or responsible person would use fossel fuels! with their known carcingens.....!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Jonny,
Well I concede you might think there are double standards going on here, but this is not a debate about the rights and wrongs of using a finate resource, but about the dangers of CO and its various sources.
In reality smoking is something that people have a choice about, and there is more than enough knowledge about the dangers in the public domain, so the risks (which are real) can very easily be avoided. The primary difference between smoking and using fossil fuels, is that with smoking the smoke is deliberately inhaled directly from the smouldering biomass.
Realising the dangers of other fossile fuels, the normal practice is to design combustion sites to aim for as complete combustion as is possible, but equally important is to ensure by product design to ensure ther is a proper flue arrangmant to draw the products of combustion away from combustion and discharge them at a reasonable distance and in 'free' air to minimise the risks.
The risks of fossile fuels are nver completey avoided, but with properly maintained equiepment they are reduced.

 

[DeliDave_]

Hi Jonny G,Although I often agree with your posts and you have given me useful advice in the past I am bemused with the last post ,have you had a couple of sherries while you are waiting for your Sunday meal,afte all it is after 5.00
Best wishes

 

[Parksy]

The thread is definitely heading way off topic so unless you are burning fossil fuels on a barbeque inside a tent, awning or other enclosed space which is what the topic is all about there's not much point in trying to start an argument about double standards.

 

[JonnyG]

The thread is definitely heading way off topic so unless you are burning fossil fuels on a barbeque inside a tent, awning or other enclosed space which is what the topic is all about there's not much point in trying to start an argument about double standards.

Always like to stay on topic,i merely assumed that as The prof started this topic and in a way took it off track it was ok to move in that direction. sorry you know me i like a debate, its the only way to get the real facts out there............

 

[Parksy]

Tonight in a supermarket car park I had a very sobering experience. I was shopping with my daughter in law to be, and we followed a lady across the car park. We loaded our shopping, and as I went around to the driver's door I heard sobbing. I realised it was the lady we'd followed, sitting in her car, and sobbing heart-wrenchingly. She was on her own, and I gently knocked on her door. She wound down the window and I asked if she was alright. She sobbed 'No' and I asked if she wanted me to stay and talk to her - and she held my hand through the window.
She told me she was the mother of Hazel Woodhams - a police scenes of crimes officer - who died eighteen months ago in Norfolk when they took a 'cold' barbecue into their tent, and every so often it just hits her again - and seeing me with my daughter in law had brought it back to her! I talked to her for ages, about her lovely daughter, the fact that her boyfriend (who'd actually been arrested for her murder) almost lost his arm due to falling and laying on the arm for eight hours, causing oxygen to be cut off to a lot of the tissue, and the dreadful aftermath of her death and her understandable sorrow.
Hazel's German boyfriend, Roland, is now starting a campaign to bring it all back to public attention - and I promised that as campers/caravanners my OH and I, and our two sons, would do all we can to make sure sites display notices, and that we sometimes may need to warn the young that this is not a safe thing to do. I felt very saddened talking to her - and it brought home the human tragedy that this can bring.
Please, wherever you go this year, can you make sure that you check notices, warn youngsters next to you of the dangers, and you may just save another death and another mother sobbing her heart out in a supermarket car park.

The thread is definitely
heading way off topic so unless you are burning fossil fuels on a
barbeque inside a tent, awning or other enclosed space which is what the
topic is all about there's not much point in trying to start an
argument about double standards.

Always like to stay on
topic,i merely assumed that as The prof started this topic and in a way
took it off track it was ok to move in that direction. sorry you know
me i like a debate, its the only way to get the real facts out
there............

As you will see from the OP (quoted top) it was Val who started the topic to try to encourage us all to raise awareness of the dangers of C O poisoning after some recent tragedies involving static caravans and tents.
There's no problem with having a debate, and threads do wander off track from time to time, which is perfectly understandable.
In this particular instance though it would be better if a separate thread was started because a debate would detract from Val's original premise.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I whole heartedly agree that the use of CO detectors is very sensible, and of course you should never use a BBQ - even a gas one in an unventilated area. The charcoal type as we know from the recent news reports do produce a substantial amount of CO, and it is worth pointing out that quality of combustion of gas BBQ's is uncertain and they too are very capable of producing CO because the flames in the lava rock types can easily be quenched by the lava rocks and any fat that drips through. In essence where you get soot being produced you will also have CO.

The same applies to gas cookers, grill and ovens, if they are not properly maintained and adjusted.