Carbon Monoxide Leak in new caravan

[ProfJohnL]

Sorry finger trouble,

Continued---

I recommend the moderators keep a close watch on this thread as if the allegations remains unsubstantiated for long, the whole thread should be removed.

Is this scaremongering? and I wonder what Greenwindows motivation is?

 

[Parksy]

Hi John

I emailed the originator of this thread and asked them to post a reply which they have done.

Owing to the stringency of some of the forum rules I cautioned the member to be circumspect in what was posted but unfortunately this appears to have raised more questions than it has answered.

Due to your expertise in these matters I include a link to the forum post where this topic has been aired more fully.

Quite frankly I'm none the wiser after reading the other forum

http://www.ukcampsite.co.uk/chatter/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=8&TopicID=172392&SearchPagePosition=1&search=greenwindows&searchMode=allwords&searchIn=Author&forum=8&searchSort=dateDESC&ReturnPage=Search

 

[Greenwindows]

Hi Scotch lad

To expand on the complexity of CO leaks, everyone knows the incomplete combustion element of the cause but there are many other factors that can either cause or assist a CO build up, including the outside temperature, atmospheric pressure, wind speed and direction and internal elements such as how many people in caravan, to name but a few. Now you can see why this is such a difficult issue to raise but the fact remains that CO leaks in caravans can happen and in the US people have actually died in such circumstances. Focusses the mind doesn't it.

Our problem included a LPG leak which in itself can cause the fire to misburn as it is getting too much fuel - hence the CO build up. Then add the variables included above and the matter gets a lot more serious.

The fact that you can speak to 20 people and they all give you a different answer - all thinking they are right shows you why it can take a year to actually get in contact with the experts dealing with CO poisoning cases every day of the week. They know many different types of cases where CO has been produced and that flies in the face of what most people will tell you.

The moral of the story is just make sure you have an alarm - then worry about the rest later when you are all in a place of safety!

 

[Parksy]

Hi Greenwindows

This might seem like a silly question and pardon me if I appear rude but are you connected with the sale or manufacture of CO2 alarms at all?

 

[Guest]

I have just read the posts from the Forum identified by Parksy, and I agree, I am none the wiser.

I am more concerned with the point raised several times that there was a strong smell of gas around the van. That alone would raise warning bells and despite whatever gas was produced as a result, the leakage of lpg gas itself indicates a serious fault somewhere.

However, I feel that the issue of everyone having CO monitors and watching for such a leakage, is certainly OTT. There have been so few instances of this type of problem that I feel that commonsense should prevail. Greenwindows is right to be concerned at his own outfit, but that in no way implies that every heater is likely to poison the caravan occupants. For CO gas to enter the caravan means that somewhere there was communication between the flue and the caravan, nothing else , and as these are a sealed part of the system for a leak to occur must have been as a result of something major to happen. This may have been a result of someone at sometime fiddling with something (I am not suggesting Greenwindows), or not installing it correctly, in which case the PDI was negligent.

We all know rogue cars happen and rogue caravans can also occur, but that does not mean that every van is dangerous. To be honest there are so many ventilation holes in my van in the floor that keeping it warm is often an issue. This does not include the roof ventilators which are always open to the outside, even when shut. I sometimes wonder why the manufacturer bothers with insulation, but as I am a warm weather camper, this is not a major issue for me.

To conclude, I feel that Greenwindows was right to highlight an issue, but I feel there is so much that is not being communicated, that getting an accurate conclusion is impossible. I would have rather he had waited until his situation was totally concluded, and then advised the whole story. Unfortunately, I feel he has scaremongered with probably good intentions.

 

[Damian]

Having read all the postings on all the forums where it appears I am very disturbed by the vagueness of the OP.

My biggest concern is the gas smell issue, which as others have pointed out would raise very grave concerns in itself.

I am not convinced by Greenwindows later post that they had a gas leak which caused more fuel to be used by the appliance, if anything it would have been less.

Even with wind etc as thrown in, as the Truma appliances are all room sealed, even if it were producing CO and backdraughting, it would be vented under the van and dispersed by the same wind.

Th ereferences to death in the USA has no relevance whatsoever as they tend to use open flued appliances much more, and unless there is verifiable proof that a room sealed appliance was responsible then that information should be disregarded.

All Truma fires and other gas burning appliances are tested individually before leaving the Truma factory in Germany and ONLY when tested successfully are they given a label of conformity.

In the UK there have been a very few deaths due to CO poisioning but only where open flued appliances that have not been serviced properly, or at all, were in use or where a non approved gas appliance was being used.

I am very very suspicious of the motives of the OP bringing this up on so amny forums almost a year after the supposed happening, and also if the fault was not found at the first indication why was the van even accepted back to use, and why did not the dealer refuse to allow it to be used until it had ben absolutely proven to be functioning correctly, after al, it would be he that faced a criminal action had a death occurred.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I am aware that the moderators are close to deleting this thread.

Since my last post, the OP has reposted.

I shall take the points green windows makes in the order he lists them as related to room sealed heaters.

1. Not every one knows that CO is produced by incomplete combustion.

2. Outside temperature will have little effect on the combustion efficiency even within a very wide habital range (Assuming propane is used in low temperatures)

3. Habital range of atmospheric pressure does not affect combustion but it will affect the amount of gas allowed through by the regulator.

4. Wind Speed and direction can affect combustion, by baffling the flue and air intakes, but the CE testing checks for the correct range of combustion with all relevant wind directions and speed.

5. The number of people inside a caravan cannot affect the combustion of a room sealed heater or vice versa

Absolutely non of Greenwindows points either singly or combined would adversely affect the room sealed nature of a Truma heater, and thus the heater cannot add or subtract any CO to the living space.

Greenwindoews has failed to provide any creditable or verifiable evidence that a Truma heater can or has caused a CO scare in a caravan.

Greenwindows goes on to relate to the US market. As Damian has pointed out this has little relevance. As far as I know Truma have not nor currently sell caravan heaters to the USA.

I can find no continouos legitimate thread of information in Greenwindows posting that confirms he has had a CO scare caused directly or indirectly by a Truma Heater.

He has cast an unsubstantiated allegation against a well established and proven product. I recommend that this thread should be closed.

 

[BrianStAlbans]

I am aware that the moderators are close to deleting this thread.

Since my last post, the OP has reposted.

I shall take the points green windows makes in the order he lists them as related to room sealed heaters.

1. Not every one knows that CO is produced by incomplete combustion.

2. Outside temperature will have little effect on the combustion efficiency even within a very wide habital range (Assuming propane is used in low temperatures)

3. Habital range of atmospheric pressure does not affect combustion but it will affect the amount of gas allowed through by the regulator.

4. Wind Speed and direction can affect combustion, by baffling the flue and air intakes, but the CE testing checks for the correct range of combustion with all relevant wind directions and speed.

5. The number of people inside a caravan cannot affect the combustion of a room sealed heater or vice versa

Absolutely non of Greenwindows points either singly or combined would adversely affect the room sealed nature of a Truma heater, and thus the heater cannot add or subtract any CO to the living space.

Greenwindoews has failed to provide any creditable or verifiable evidence that a Truma heater can or has caused a CO scare in a caravan.

Greenwindows goes on to relate to the US market. As Damian has pointed out this has little relevance. As far as I know Truma have not nor currently sell caravan heaters to the USA.

I can find no continouos legitimate thread of information in Greenwindows posting that confirms he has had a CO scare caused directly or indirectly by a Truma Heater.

He has cast an unsubstantiated allegation against a well established and proven product. I recommend that this thread should be closed.

I believe "he" is a "she" John

 

[Parksy]

I have been in touch with the originator of this topic via email and have received a reply stating that they are ordinary members of the caravanning public who are concerned about what they are convinced is a CO ingress into their caravan.

The post raises questions not least because they state that their problem was caused by a Truma product.

We have no way of verifying if this is fact so the topic will be submitted to forum administrators in the morning for them to determine if this topic has any foundation in fact or is conjectural.

I would ask that no further posts are added to this topic until an answer from admin is forthcoming

Thank you.

 

[Happy-Lappy]

I am aware that the moderators are close to deleting this thread.

Since my last post, the OP has reposted.

I shall take the points green windows makes in the order he lists them as related to room sealed heaters.

1. Not every one knows that CO is produced by incomplete combustion.

2. Outside temperature will have little effect on the combustion efficiency even within a very wide habital range (Assuming propane is used in low temperatures)

3. Habital range of atmospheric pressure does not affect combustion but it will affect the amount of gas allowed through by the regulator.

4. Wind Speed and direction can affect combustion, by baffling the flue and air intakes, but the CE testing checks for the correct range of combustion with all relevant wind directions and speed.

5. The number of people inside a caravan cannot affect the combustion of a room sealed heater or vice versa

Absolutely non of Greenwindows points either singly or combined would adversely affect the room sealed nature of a Truma heater, and thus the heater cannot add or subtract any CO to the living space.

Greenwindoews has failed to provide any creditable or verifiable evidence that a Truma heater can or has caused a CO scare in a caravan.

Greenwindows goes on to relate to the US market. As Damian has pointed out this has little relevance. As far as I know Truma have not nor currently sell caravan heaters to the USA.

I can find no continouos legitimate thread of information in Greenwindows posting that confirms he has had a CO scare caused directly or indirectly by a Truma Heater.

He has cast an unsubstantiated allegation against a well established and proven product. I recommend that this thread should be closed.

Brian,

Greenwindows could be like Holly in Lou Reeds "Walk on the Wild Side

best regards, Martin

 

[LMH]

Parksy

Can't I make a comment? I'm dying to type what I think.

Lisa xx

 

[Dustydog]

Parksy

I have to say,

And the Devil casts his net!

Cheers

Alan

 

[Parksy]

Thanks to everyone for not adding to this topic which I can now confirm is open for further discussion.

I've had email contact with Greenwindows who has brought this crucial safety issue to the notice of us all.

I know that Greenwindows wants to add a further post and before she does allow me to add that this forum member has answered my extensive questioning via email with truthfulness and honesty and has proved to my satisfaction and to that of forum administrators that there is no 'ulterior motive' or 'hidden agenda' to her comments.

Her post is genuine and she has undergone considerable stress and anxiety brought on by the incident itself and the sometimes seemingly hostile questioning on other caravan forums as a result of her efforts to raise awareness of this issue.

 

[Parksy]

Yes you can Lisa, thats what I was trying to say!

Greenwindows is genuine and has no ulterior motive. She simply wishes to make us aware of the need to check our gas appliances regularly.

I trust that her further contributions to this forum will be met with courtesy and understanding, thank you

Go ahead Lisa................

 

[Dustydog]

Ok Parksy

Kiss! Keep it simple stupid. We all know that one.That's me!

1. Did the event really happen?

2. Was the accuracy of the CO alarm vaildated?

3. Have Truma or Explorer Group ( Buccaneer) given any technical explanation?

4. Can this event happen again and to any of us given a certain set of circumstances?

Cheers

Alan

 

[ValA.]

From the Health Protection Agency website July 2008:

With the start of the school holidays, the Health Protection Agency is today warning people of the potential health risks of carbon monoxide poisoning from fossil fuel burning appliances - such as gas powered fridges, heaters or cookers - while on caravanning holidays.

The Agency is advising caravan owners to have their appliances serviced by an appropriately registered engineer before heading off on their summer break. People who hire or borrow caravans should ask to see a service certificate to check appliances are being properly maintained. The Agency also recommends that all caravan users buy an audible carbon monoxide alarm.

Professor Robert Maynard from the Agency said: "In small spaces such as caravans, levels of carbon monoxide produced by faulty, poorly maintained or poorly ventilated fossil fuel appliances can build up very quickly to levels which can kill. We want to remind people of the dangers as they prepare to go on holiday in caravans that contain appliances which may not have been properly serviced. At high levels, if you do not have an alarm, it is unlikely you will know you are being poisoned by this lethal gas."

The Agency believes that some caravan users may be at risk from the potentially deadly gas - which is produced when fossil fuels burn without enough air - from poorly maintained caravan appliances such as Liquefied Petroleum Gas, or kerosene-powered fridges, heaters or cookers.

 

[Parksy]

Hi Alan

I'll try to address some of your points

1. Did the event really happen? Yes

2. Was the accuracy of the CO alarm vaildated? Not sure

3. Have Truma or Explorer Group ( Buccaneer) given any technical explanation?

The situation is still ongoing. The fire was prohibited from use by a CORGI registered engineer but greenwindows doesn't yet know what the specific fault was. The

4. Can this event happen again and to any of us given a certain set of circumstances?

In my opinion from what Greenwindows has said both publicly and privately to me via email yes this event could possibly happen again which is the only reason for her taking the trouble to try and warn us to have our appliances checked and be aware of the possibility of CO ingress.

 

[Surfer]

I am still wondering how Greenwindows can smell CO when it is an odourless gas which measn that you cannot smell it. On another forum she states that even their neigbour next door could smell the CO. I would tend to think that they may have a LPG leak somewhere or it is omething else not connected with the gas or CO. Can someone please enlighten me?

 

[ProfJohnL]

I am grateful for Parksy seeking further clarification from the OP',

As a result of his enquiries and subsequent postings I wish to offer my apologies to Greenwindows for being so aggressive in seeking answers to the questions her OP raised. As others will know I am annoyingly dogged about LPG gas safety, having worked in the field,with a number of the appliance manufactures, and have seen the results of incidents where CO has caused illness.

I accept that she has had an incident that might involve an indication of raised CO levels, and this is of course a serious matter, and should be investigated, It should also be publicised if the findings of the investigation show there have been design, testing, manufacturing, installation/commissioning, servicing or usage issues that have contributed to the incident and are likely to occur again.

It is unfortunate that a vital piece of information was omitted from the original post, - the fact that following the incident the Truma fire was issued with a prohibition notice by a qualified engineer.

This is important because it clearly indicates that either the appliance or its installation does not conform in one or more ways to the requirements of either the regulations of the manufacturers instructions. - In other words this is not a NORMAL installation. This could be from the time of installation, or it might be due to incompetent service or maintenance, or inflicted damage wilful or otherwise. Unfortunately the prohibition details are still unknown.

It is of course valid to raise the awareness of other users to a potential safety issue, but in doing so care must be used to place the issue in its correct context. The omission of the prohibition notice information gave a strong impression that there is a fundamental problem that could affect all Truma heaters. This is apparently not so.

If the intention of the posting was to suggest that owners of Truma heaters should have their installations checked, then I cannot find it in the posting.

I heartily support the notion that all gas appliances should be regularly checked by a competent fitter, not least because the vibrations created by towing do affect systems. And also the fact that many caravans are left unused for long periods, both corrosion, and the activities of insects and small rodents can cause blockages in parts of appliances.

I hope we can look forward to reading the full results of the investigation and to discover what the actual cause was. This would allow us all to know if there needs to be any safety work to be carried out on other installations.

 

[Clive-Cardiff]

Hi All, I posted a similar problem with my fridge last October.

While the van was in storage I switched the fridge on to gas to cool it down before setting off the following day.

When we got back to the van after about16 hours the CO alarm had been activated in the van and there was a strong "exhaust" type smell in the van.

Since I posted the local rep has renewed the burner a number of times and has cleaned and checked the flue. I have run the fridge on butane and on propane. The problem still persisted.

The rep checked the burner using a gas analyser on his last visit and he got printout of 300ppm CO. I understand that the reading should be a lot lower than this.

In my case the manufacturer has just agreed to fir a new fridge.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Cliff,

Thank you for your post.

Whilst both and Greenwindows have a common indication of CO in the caravan, the reasons in your case are quite understandable.

You have had two problems. First of all the creation of the CO is a result of a problem with the burner not able to combust the gas and air properly. This is why it has been changed. but you also have a secondary issue where the fride is not effectively sealed to prevent flue product from entering the caravan. Sadly this is not uncommon, if you can feel any wind movement around the sides of the fridge, then it is not fully sealed.

You would have to check with the manufacturers instructions to see if an air tight seal is actually required. If it is then I suggest you ask your dealer to sort it out.

 

[Guest]

I acknowledge the comments made by the Moderator and others. However, I may be out of order but I do not think apologies from anyone are required. Why?

As far as I can see the Moderator is confident the Post was genuine and that is fine. However, no satisfactory explanation has been presented for the incident, in fact there has been a great paucity of information regarding actual facts. I, for one, still have no idea of what actually happened apart from this 'warning'about CO gas poisoning, with a heater being the number one suspect. That is valid just as far as it gets. Yes, there are a number of potentially toxic gases that can be emitted by equipment in a caravan or motorhome and yes, we should all be aware of them. However, that does not mean to suggest that every piece of equipment in every caravan or motorhome currently in the UK is likely to cause death to the occupants.

I feel the Moderators's suggestion that the thread be suspended until further information is available is correct, as currently we are basically going round in circles. However, I would ask the Moderators to keep the subject under their remit, and advise all of us as and when they have enough information to conclude the matter to everyone's satisfaction. I would also suggest to'Greenwindows' that they issue a Post on all the threads they have initiated, that they are suspending all communication until they are in a position to offer more accurate infromation, whether that be as a result of legal decisions, or otherwise.

I am afraid any 'newbie' seeing all this will be panicking at the prospect of gassing their family in a recreational vehicle of any type. Having to check the 'smoke alarm, LPG alarm, CO2 alarm and CO alarm, not counting whether you need an alarm in case someone injects a sleeping gas into the van or motorhome, is frankly becoming ridiculous. This is a recreational hobby, not an endurance course.

 

[Parksy]

I agree that there is up to yet incomplete information on this topic and I put that down to the inexperience of Greenwindows on forums and the fact that the topic has run on three seperate forums at once.

Greenwindows was overwhelmed with the resonse and some of it was sceptical on other forums plus the fact that Greenwindows has answered several emails containing searching questions from me.

I know it can be frustrating when we are looking for answers and waiting for more facts to appear but please gents, let's show a little patience.

This topic IS open for discussion but as Scotch Lad rightly points out the full facts have not yet emerged.

Please bear in mind that not everyone is like us who are hiding on here from the Mrs and the tele [we know who we are ;O)]

Sometimes members have young families to look after and domestic chores to complete so I'm sure that given time Greenwindows will get back to us

 

[Damian]

Having had the chance to read all the mails sent by Parksy and replies from Greenwindows, and the advice from Haymarket I feel that as the subject of the post is still unresolved, that is Greenwindows is still in negotiation over the matter it is not right to expect any conclusion until that process has been completed.

It is however a good time to remind every caravan owner and user that they MUST read the individual instruction manuals and adhere to the manufacturers recommended service requirements, not only to ensure the appliances are working properly and safely, but also to qualify for the warranty as given by each appliance manufacturer.

It is also worth noting that during an annual service it is not a requirement to remove appliances for servicing, just to ensure they are functioning correctly, but it is the OWNERS responsibility to ensure that annual servicing of appliances is carried out, which will involve extra cost.

Whilst I understand that servicing costs are a bone of contention, it is still vitally important that YOUR safety is the prime concern, and that of your loved ones.

Whatever other items you may wish to save money on it is very unwise to ignore the running gear , gas and electrics as these are the main items which can kill you if they go wrong.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Parksy

I think some factors in this case have been lost in translation.

Didn't Greenwindows tell you that the "event" which scared them involved the activation of the alarm. Everyone then assumed it was CO. In fact our lady says the Truma fire was not running on gas at the time and she could smell LPG.

Confused? Yes but until we have an accurate appraisal of all the material facts we could go down a blind alley.

No where so far, have I read that the Truma was running on gas when the "event " happened.

I suspect on the information available to me at the moment she suffered a LPG leakage??

Conversely It is noteworthy that one year on neither The Explorer Group nor Truma have tried to offer an explanation. A great disappointment. I hope silence is not to be taken as an admission.......

I'd love to know if anyone has done a gas pressure drop test on her Buccaneer, if only to prove there was no LPG leakage??

So at the moment we have three possibilities:-

CO

CO2 or

LPG leakage

Assume Grrenwindows is correct that the Truma was off at the time it is still possible for the gas valve to have failed within the heater causing LPG leakage. I wonder if this is the reason the Corgi engineer declared it too dangerous to use?

Going forward it will be wise for our Mods to try and set out an accurate assessment of what really happened and all the material facts no matter how trivial they may seem on first sight.

Cheers

Alan