CC Towcar of the Year

[Tim2]

Hi Lads

I, like, others am suspicious of these tow car "tests". It is interesting that the CC and CCC tests came up with completely different vehicles.

I am a great fan of the "Which" Magazine tests. They do not accept promotional goodies and their test cars are bought anonomously from ordinary dealers. They go out of their way to make the tests as fair as possible. The results are supplemented by a membership survey of people actually OWNING the car and commenting on such things as reliability.

Interestingly Landrover have not done well for reliability over the last 3 years of "Which" tests.

If anyone wants to have a look on their online site they are currently offering a trial offer subscription of

 

[Darce]

I noticed that they tested the Freelander, Disco, and Range Rover - but not the Defender/County type, which I am thinking may be my next vehicle.

Hi Old Fogey

The did test the Defender 90 (Cars

 

[Darce]

Hi Old Fogey

The did test the Defender 90 (Cars

 

[Garfield]

Just browsing the cc towcar supplement, they can't even get their figures right, it's quite clear that some of the torque figures quoted are Nm not lbft but if Skoda are getting 320 lbft out of a 1968cc diesel, I want one!

 

[WatsonJohnG]

It would be helpful to prospective purchasers if testers took cars to a weighbridge and gave actual kerbweights as well as technical details such as mph/1000 revs in different gears especially top.The rev range spread of torque would be useful as well when considering towcars.

The height of the towball/drop with caravan on actual cars etc etc

We had the towcar of the year in the Citroen BX which unlike many recent ones was within the price range of more people

 

[Oldfogey]

Hi Darcy. I realise I was talking about the CCC towcar awards - just got the CC one.

I'm surprised they tested the 90. The longer wheelbase of the 110 is well known to give a better ride, and of course it has the luggage capacity, four doors etc etc.

I would like to get one about 10 years old and refit it. More interior lining, better seats etc could solve a lot of the problems about noise and comfort.

To us, it really looks the business as a proper working 4x4 - and I bet you don't get any trouble with the anti brigade, particularly if you put a few bits of straw in the door hinges and a few rustic stickers in the windows (NFU, goat society, kind of thing)

 

[Lutz]

There's little point in giving details of the height of the towball because that depends to some extent on the make of the towbar and, anyway, it should always be between 350 and 420mm in order to be within legal requirements. As this height applies for the fully laden vehicle, it's immaterial whether the caravan is hitched or not. For what it's worth, one could give details of the towball height at kerbweight but with the full permissible noseweight applied. However, I can't see that this information would substantially affect most people's decision on whether to buy the car or not, as few do most of their towing with an empty towcar.

Also, the only purpose actual kerbweight data would serve would be to show how far off any published figure is. It would be foolish to think that a similar car of the same specification would also have exactly the same kerbweight, although I would agree that it may come a bit closer to the actual figure than what you read in the brochure.

 

[Pat_374304630]

Hi,

Just over 2 years ago I was issued with a company car.Being a caravanner I needed a decent one.Being limited for choice I looked at the last towcar of the year results published by PC. The only car available was runner up in its section,so I opted for that model.It was a Renault Megane Sport Tourer and of all the towcars I have owned over the years this is by far the best. I'm sure some of the comments made are correct all I can say is that by taking note of what PC said about the car I am a happy bunny.I will be looking to replace it next year.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

There's little point in giving details of the height of the towball because that depends to some extent on the make of the towbar and, anyway, it should always be between 350 and 420mm in order to be within legal requirements. As this height applies for the fully laden vehicle, it's immaterial whether the caravan is hitched or not. For what it's worth, one could give details of the towball height at kerbweight but with the full permissible noseweight applied. However, I can't see that this information would substantially affect most people's decision on whether to buy the car or not, as few do most of their towing with an empty towcar.

Also, the only purpose actual kerbweight data would serve would be to show how far off any published figure is. It would be foolish to think that a similar car of the same specification would also have exactly the same kerbweight, although I would agree that it may come a bit closer to the actual figure than what you read in the brochure.

We never did agree on that one !

Regards

 

[Lutz]

There's little point in giving details of the height of the towball because that depends to some extent on the make of the towbar and, anyway, it should always be between 350 and 420mm in order to be within legal requirements. As this height applies for the fully laden vehicle, it's immaterial whether the caravan is hitched or not. For what it's worth, one could give details of the towball height at kerbweight but with the full permissible noseweight applied. However, I can't see that this information would substantially affect most people's decision on whether to buy the car or not, as few do most of their towing with an empty towcar.

Also, the only purpose actual kerbweight data would serve would be to show how far off any published figure is. It would be foolish to think that a similar car of the same specification would also have exactly the same kerbweight, although I would agree that it may come a bit closer to the actual figure than what you read in the brochure.

I think it's more a case of you not agreeing with the letter of the law than not agreeing with me

 

[Lutz]

So long as adequate noseweight and adequate ground clearance both between car and caravan and at the back of the caravan are maintained, I fail to understand the importance that you attach to towball height, JohnG.

 

[RogerP]

Why dont these tests ever report on the running costs.

It would be good for them to report how much fuel they used with each vehicle during each part of the testing and how many miles they did with each vehicle.

whilst I know its not truely indicicative of real world driving , they seemed to be able offer comment on satbility in crosswinds , and forgive me if I'm wrong , I dont remember seeing any huge wind machines sat at the side of any of the courses last time I was at Millbrook.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

I think it's more a case of you not agreeing with the letter of the law than not agreeing with me

You've lost me again

 

[WatsonJohnG]

So long as adequate noseweight and adequate ground clearance both between car and caravan and at the back of the caravan are maintained, I fail to understand the importance that you attach to towball height, JohnG.

I like the van to be level and don't like damage to jockey wheel when going on to ferries

I am now OK with the XT and MAD springs --its dead right and I can remove the jockey wheel via an R clip .7 cm is a big margin if you are at each extreme

I never got over not having self levelling suspension after 12 years and 4 BXs !I am very much concerned with obeying the letter of the law

Regards

What is the make of your stabiliser Lutz and how does ir compare with the new Alko?

 

[Lutz]

The trouble with being able to make any meaningful comment on crosswind stability is that it depends as much, if not more, on the size, weight and type of caravan than the crosswind performance of the car alone. Therefore, in order to make a true comparison between cars, one would always have to use the same caravan, but there again, even that is rather unrealistic if you were to use the same 2-berth lightweight for all tests to to be able to cover the whole range from a Mini to a Range Rover. To be realistic, one would have to split the awards into different categories than at present, say in steps of 100kg towload rather than by price, and use one standard caravan in each of the respective towload groups.

Actually, weaving through a set of pylons at speed is about as good as testing with wind machines, and a lot easier to reproduce.

To really sort out the good from the bad, one would also have to test under more severe conditions than 85% weight ratio. I'd suggest 100% weight ratio, where the manufacturer's spec allows.

 

[KeithJ]

"it would be good for them to report how much fuel they used.."

And the estimated depreciation - over two years - in

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Lutz

I've read you comment about me not agreeing with the letter of the law again and I just don't get it

In fact I find it insulting

 

[Lutz]

I like the van to be level and don't like damage to jockey wheel when going on to ferries

I am now OK with the XT and MAD springs --its dead right and I can remove the jockey wheel via an R clip .7 cm is a big margin if you are at each extreme

I never got over not having self levelling suspension after 12 years and 4 BXs !I am very much concerned with obeying the letter of the law

Regards

What is the make of your stabiliser Lutz and how does ir compare with the new Alko?

Having the caravan level is only a matter of appearance of the outfit and does not affect its handling or stability performance (assuming everything else is set up correctly). However, what you say about potential damage to the jockey wheel is in full agreement with my statement about the necessity to have adequate ground clearance between car and caravan, but it's the job of the caravan, not the car manufacturer, to make sure that the jockey wheel can be raised enough not to cause a problem at the minimum towball height of 350mm.

Without self-levelling suspension or a far larger selection of different springs on the car assembly line to cover all possible combinations of specification and kerbweights, car manufacturers would be hard pushed to reduce the tolerance of rear end standing heights below 7cm. Vehicle build tolerances can be (and are) quite substantial.

I've got an Alko stabiliser and the LEAS electronic one fitted to my caravan. The latter is basically similar to the new AlKo ATC except that it has an additional temperature sensor on the brake shoes to warn of brake fade.

 

[Lutz]

Sorry if you interpreted it that way but I was only stating the fact that the industry and the lawmakers agreed on a standard height for the towball and its tolerance. Therefore, if you are in disagreement, it can only be with the way the law is worded and not with me, because I was only quoting the requirements.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Sorry if you interpreted it that way but I was only stating the fact that the industry and the lawmakers agreed on a standard height for the towball and its tolerance. Therefore, if you are in disagreement, it can only be with the way the law is worded and not with me, because I was only quoting the requirements.

"The height of the towball/drop with caravan on actual cars etc etc"

Can't see any disagreement with anything in that statement nor why it should infringe any laws to know what cars are actually turned out at--but enough said

 

[Lutz]

Sorry if you interpreted it that way but I was only stating the fact that the industry and the lawmakers agreed on a standard height for the towball and its tolerance. Therefore, if you are in disagreement, it can only be with the way the law is worded and not with me, because I was only quoting the requirements.

But unless the car has self-levelling suspension AND the caravan (if there were such a thing as self-levelling caravans) would one be able to hold the caravan level under all conditions. The suspension on my caravan has a lot more travel than that of the car. When it's empty it has a significant nose-down attitude when hitched up to the car. Only when when it's fully laden does it stand more or less level. So it's as much up to the caravan manufacturers to come up with a solution to meet your requirements as the car makers.

 

[Darce]

Hi Darcy. I realise I was talking about the CCC towcar awards - just got the CC one.

I'm surprised they tested the 90. The longer wheelbase of the 110 is well known to give a better ride, and of course it has the luggage capacity, four doors etc etc.

I would like to get one about 10 years old and refit it. More interior lining, better seats etc could solve a lot of the problems about noise and comfort.

To us, it really looks the business as a proper working 4x4 - and I bet you don't get any trouble with the anti brigade, particularly if you put a few bits of straw in the door hinges and a few rustic stickers in the windows (NFU, goat society, kind of thing)

Agree but still find the 110's and 90's overpriced for my budget, great vehicles though they are. We have been to see quite a few but were always disappointed. It seems to me that owners that have the good ones have NO intention of selling.

My son wanted one for his catering business as he often has to drab a "Hog Roast" machine for example to the back end of a field for a Wedding/Christening etc and found that his Passat just could not tow on wet grass. (Surprise Surprise!) In the end we picked up a 3 door Discovery 200TDi in very good condition for about a quarter of the price that 90's and 110's were going for. We put in a new rear floor panel at a cost of

 

[Darce]

Hi Old Fogey

Agree but still find the 110's and 90's overpriced for my budget, great vehicles though they are. We have been to see quite a few but were always disappointed. It seems to me that owners that have the good ones have NO intention of selling.

My son wanted one for his catering business as he often has to drag a "Hog Roast" machine for example to the back end of a field for a Wedding/Christening etc and found that his Passat just could not tow on wet grass. (Surprise Surprise!) In the end we picked up a 3 door Discovery 200TDi in very good condition for about a quarter of the price that 90's and 110's were going for. We put in a new rear floor panel at a cost of

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Sorry if you interpreted it that way but I was only stating the fact that the industry and the lawmakers agreed on a standard height for the towball and its tolerance. Therefore, if you are in disagreement, it can only be with the way the law is worded and not with me, because I was only quoting the requirements.

But I have achieved that without self levelling(MAD) and in the CC report they comment on the new XT outfit as tested by saying that it stood level so it must count as something to other people in the real world.

I can't see that looking right is a problem so long as its within the stated figures which presumably were set up in the first place to give the right configuration and of course legal.

As I said before we don't have to agree in every detail when we obviously do in general

 

[Lutz]

But I have achieved that without self levelling(MAD) and in the CC report they comment on the new XT outfit as tested by saying that it stood level so it must count as something to other people in the real world.

I can't see that looking right is a problem so long as its within the stated figures which presumably were set up in the first place to give the right configuration and of course legal.

As I said before we don't have to agree in every detail when we obviously do in general

I have no issue with what you say, JohnG, only that I feel the caravan manufacturers need to do their homework, not the car industry. They (the caravan manufacturers) know full well that the lowest legal height of towball is 350mm and they also know that a tolerance of 70mm is the best the car makers can achieve without self-levelling suspension (otherwise the law would have made provisions for closer tolerances) so it's now up to the caravan manufacturers to ensure that one can negogiate speed bumps, for example, without damaging the jockey wheel. It would be unreasonable to expect all car buyers to have to modify their standing heights the way you have done (although there's basically nothing wrong with that, but it shouldn't be necessary) just because the caravans are sitting too low. Self-levelling suspension for caravans would be technically possible.