Clutch failure on Ford S Max 1.8 diesel

[rob_jax]

Hi Glenn,

Your information about Mercedes automatic gearboxes is wrong - the oil cooler is mounted in front of the air conditioning radiator - or rather it is on the V6 CDI engines.

Robert

 

[Glenn_5132962]

I'm not wrong:-

http://www.pistonheads.com/GASSING/topic.asp?h=0&t=604479&nmt=Valeo Radiators and Gearbox damage
http://forums.mercedesclub.org.uk/showthread.php?t=18792&highlight=valeo

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Glenn,

Let's be more precise - I drive a 2006 MB E320 CDI with the 7 speed automatic gearbox - and that has a gearbox oil cooler that is separate from the radiator

My previous C270 CDI also had a separate gearbox oil cooler

The issue you found on the internet relates to the previous model CLK - which is hardly likely to be used as a tow car...

Robert

 

[seth1]

Must be an MB thing ,mounting oilcoolers in the bottom of rads,bit of the point but all the commercials are the same.the idea is sound,but the grief it can cause isnt.I,d have thought it would mix the other way round as oil pressure is greater than water pressure,apart from obviously when the engines turned off and the g.box oil pump is stationary.good old hitlers revenge.

 

[Glenn_5132962]

Effects C, E and CLK class Mercs built 00-04.

 

[Icemaker]

vw audi group are having very serious problems with dual mass fly wheels, any search of google will bring up hundreds of pages regarding the issues. my own experiance was with my seat alhambra which had a new flywheel fitted at just 5 thousand miles and then another at 16 thousand, both under warranty. prior to this i have never had to have a clutch replaced despite some of my vehicles covering over 100 thousand miles (my company transit van being one).

my ford s max 2.0 tdci has the dual mass fly wheel and this item allmost stopped me buying the car but after researching all alternatives and finding that everything seems to have these stupid un reliable items i decided to buy the s max anyway, up to now the car has covered just short of 18 thousand miles and every thing is totally fine except the front tyres which are now due for replacement.

 

[g_374369443]

regarding the dual mass flywheel. QUITE SIMPLY half the dealers do not have the proper equipment to actually check them as they should be checked,and so many are replaced that do not need replacing.

[any mechanics out there please do not mention the free play measurement as being the way,as its not the proper way without the proper equipment].

Most common problem is abuse. special grease protecting the springs is destroyed by severe heat, the only way that will happen is abuse of the system.

Although you are lucky if this happens whilst under warranty,because it seems up to now manufacturers are paying out, unlike many did if your clutch went at low mileage they simply claimed it was a case of abuse!.

Now people seem to be mixing up things here, clutches going at low mileage is not something new and still happens all the time for whatever reason.

The real difference is with cars fitted with a DMF,is that because of clutch abuse and the heat it can generate, it can actually shorter the life of the DMF, [which unlike say suspension,which is incidentally also a wear out part that should be replaced at 60k, hands up all those that do that?]The DMF stops the car from being used, your suspension does not.

 

[Icemaker]

i was adviced by seat technical and most of the forums on the subject of dm flywheels seem to agree that dual mass flywheels are engineered too closely to the tolerances of the engine fitted to a certain vehicle, certainly with vw audi the flywheel is apparently only 5% tolerant of the engines power output, if the tolerance was any higher vw say the damping effect would be lost and the flywheel useless.

the problem is or was in my case is that with the vw 1.9 tdi 130 bhp engine fitted to my seat alhambra the clutch used to be fine if there was only me or maybee two in the car but when the car was loaded with more weight or up to 7 people the clutch used to slip like mad every time you changed gear and had to use plenty of power like when entering motorways or roundabouts and this was in every gear up to number 6 with the clutch fully released the problem was exasperated immensely when towing but the car was so good in every other way we learnt to live with it.

seat concluded that allthough my car was being used well within its design spec the dual mass flywheel was a problem and as such they changed it twice under warranty, the last time it was changed (before i sold the car) i was adviced that seat where trying to source another manufacturer for better dmf's and i was adviced that there are now aftermarket solid flywheels available to replace the dmf if the client so wished. if the dmf in the s max fails then that is what i will have fitted.

 

[Dustydog]

Icemaker,

Will changing a DMF for a conventional flywheel make any real difference to the levels of vibration etc? Seems sensible but then I have to ask why DMF's were invented to dampen out the vibes?

My previous diesel has twin rotating counter balance shafts for "dampening".

Cheers

Alan

 

[Icemaker]

I supose at the end of the day alan you have to work out the pro's and cons of each type. personally i cant feel any difference in vibration levels in my s.max than i can feel in my friends transit with exactely the same engine so the dmf to me is a complete waste of time which is why i will be having a solid fly wheel fitted when the dmf in the smax does fail (and it will).

i think dmf's where invented on a whim really and not much thought went in to them.

 

[g_374369443]

i was adviced by seat technical and most of the forums on the subject of dm flywheels seem to agree that dual mass flywheels are engineered too closely to the tolerances of the engine fitted to a certain vehicle, certainly with vw audi the flywheel is apparently only 5% tolerant of the engines power output, if the tolerance was any higher vw say the damping effect would be lost and the flywheel useless.

the problem is or was in my case is that with the vw 1.9 tdi 130 bhp engine fitted to my seat alhambra the clutch used to be fine if there was only me or maybee two in the car but when the car was loaded with more weight or up to 7 people the clutch used to slip like mad every time you changed gear and had to use plenty of power like when entering motorways or roundabouts and this was in every gear up to number 6 with the clutch fully released the problem was exasperated immensely when towing but the car was so good in every other way we learnt to live with it.

seat concluded that allthough my car was being used well within its design spec the dual mass flywheel was a problem and as such they changed it twice under warranty, the last time it was changed (before i sold the car) i was adviced that seat where trying to source another manufacturer for better dmf's and i was adviced that there are now aftermarket solid flywheels available to replace the dmf if the client so wished. if the dmf in the s max fails then that is what i will have fitted.

And yet the DMF fitted to both the 130bhp and indeed the 150bhp are the same! so much for 5% tolerances.

 

[g_374369443]

"complete waste of time"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Without the DMF and using just a clutch, the manufacturers would have to beef up ALL the transmission[gearbox] and drive shafts,and the shock waves could still leed to premature engine damage!IF that too was not given some sort of dampening, you know something like a DMF!

This would be both expensive and add weight to the vehicles too

 

[paul.bower]

"complete waste of time"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Without the DMF and using just a clutch, the manufacturers would have to beef up ALL the transmission[gearbox] and drive shafts,and the shock waves could still leed to premature engine damage!IF that too was not given some sort of dampening, you know something like a DMF!

This would be both expensive and add weight to the vehicles too

Valeo we the first company to develope the conversion from dual mass to solid flyheel and have tested it fully before launching it in to vehicle aftermarket. They are introducing more & more applicatons and are currently up to 13 mainly for Ford,VW & Mercedes, i work for a motor distributor that sells these conversions on a daily basis and they are fitted to cars and light commercials, we have had only positive feedback on these conversion kits and the obvious main advantage is the cost issue as the kit is vertually the price of the dual mass flywheel alone and the fitting time is exactly the same so the labour charge will be the same. I have no hessitation of recomending this conversion.

 

[paul.bower]

Valeo we the first company to develope the conversion from dual mass to solid flyheel and have tested it fully before launching it in to vehicle aftermarket. They are introducing more & more applicatons and are currently up to 13 mainly for Ford,VW & Mercedes, i work for a motor distributor that sells these conversions on a daily basis and they are fitted to cars and light commercials, we have had only positive feedback on these conversion kits and the obvious main advantage is the cost issue as the kit is vertually the price of the dual mass flywheel alone and the fitting time is exactly the same so the labour charge will be the same. I have no hessitation of recomending this conversion

 

[g_374369443]

??????!!!!!!!!!! You can actually get a replacement kit for most manufacturers!So I don't know where the mainly ford merc vw, comes from! And "extensive testing!" So they have run a few variants upto 100k have they? cause not, because joe public will not associate, the early replacement of engine mounts gearbox mounts drive shafts and transmission damage as a possible link to the worse effects of poor dampening that the non dual mass flywheel system gives.

No doubt if the non DMF was to catch on in large enough numbers using today's set ups, we would be reading on forums of a few years in the future, how engine and gearbox mounts and drive shafts and transmissions and gearboxes and indeed the occasional crankshaft, seem to fail much earlier than they did in the past.

Be careful what you wish for.............

 

[g_374369443]

Whilst you will indeed read of a fair few failures of the DMF system, this is only natural because of shear numbers used.

But even the lads on VW sites are getting wise to the associated problems of using a single plate instead. as people start to do good mileage on these single plates the same type of rumours that taint the DMF, are now becoming more common on the single plate system too.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=137014&page=4

 

[Garfield]

So all in all cars are still the unreliable heaps of c**p they've always been with obsolescence and failiure built into them by the manufacturers so we have to buy new ones. At least the old heaps of c**p could be fixed at the roadside with a blunt screwdriver and a well aimed wheelbrace!!!. Our S-max is now suffering from the well documented starting problems

 

[Icemaker]

so g, are you saying that all cars fitted with dmf's are manufactured to a lower spec than the hundreds of thousands of cars that where sold before this item was fitted to modern cars?. personally ive driven many hundreds of thousands of miles in various diesel powered cars and vans in my previous job as a refrigeration engineer but ive had 2 failures on one vehicle fitted with a dmf !.

as i stated above i have experiance of exactely the same engine fitted to two different vehicles, my smax which has the dmf fitted and my friends transit which has been converted to a solid flywheel (after the dmf failled)and i can not feel any difference at all, no extra vibration or noise and probably a better feel to the clutch, certainly when towing the digger he gets no clutch slip at all unlike when the van had a dmf.

Its an ongoing contentious issue that ive been involved with since my alhambras first faillure ive done a lot of research and ive found nothing to suggest that dmf's are anything but rubbish.

 

[Icemaker]

g

12 Dec 2008 12:17 PM

And yet the DMF fitted to both the 130bhp and indeed the 150bhp are the same! so much for 5% tolerances.

really ? when my car first failled lookers seat tried to fit a dmf and clutch from a demonstrator that was a 150 bhp and the engine would not run properly, apparently the sensors on the dmf are totally different and the clutches are not interchangeable. lookers themselves adviced me of the 5% tolerance.

quite obviousley you are in favour of this item but the vast majority know that dmf's are just another item designed to fail so we have to pay out, you will not convince me or the many other people who have suffered premature faillure due to dmf's that they are of any use other than to line the pockets of mechanics and garages.

 

[Dustydog]

I've pasted this article because it seems a decent explanation from the people who invented the DMF ( I think)

I suspect that as the bemefit is so low down the rpm range a solid flywheel replacement should not be a long term problem.

Cheers

Alan

Dual Mass Flywheels invented by LuK

Take for example the revolutionary invention of the Dual Mass Flywheel (DMF). It's true that flywheels have helped to eliminate cyclic irregularities of the engine for a long time. However engine vibrations at low torque or idle speed often experienced as shaking and rattling, were still causing concern and frustration to drivers. There was only one solution to this problem: increasing the transmission's moment of mass inertia without increasing the weight - a paradox. But this is exactly what DMF does.

Function of the LuK DMF

With the DMF the angular momentum is decreased in front of the torsion damper and increased behind it. The angular momentum of the engine is now assigned to the primary mass of the DMF, while that of the transmission is assigned to the secondary mass including the clutch driven plate and the clutch pressure plate. In this way, the resonance speed is shifted from approx. 1300 rpm to about 300 rpm and can no longer interfere with driving comfort.,

An added positive effect is provided by the reduced angular momentum on the engine side: Gear changing is improved thanks to the lower mass to be synchronised, and the synchromesh units are subject to less wear.

With previous conventional flywheels and torsion-damped clutch plates, the torsional vibrations in the idle speed range were transmitted to the transmission with the least possible filtering, causing the teeth of the transmission gears to strike against one another (transmission rattle). The use of a dual mass flywheel however, filters out the torsional vibrations of the engine by the complex construction of the torsion damper, preventing vibration from affecting the transmission components - rattling does not occur, and driver comfort is fully ensured.

Service innovation by LuK: the DMF on-car tool

At the Automechanika 2008 in Frankfurt/Germany, Schaeffler Group Automotive Aftermarket presented a special tool allowing car mechanics to check the function of the DMF while the part is mounted. To date no such tool has been available on the repair market to perform this type of inspection. Using this special tool, workshops can now assess the operating reliability of the DMF and determine whether or not the DMF has to be replaced along with the clutch. Because a worn or defective DMF will inevitably damage the new clutch.

Whenever the clutch is replaced, the DMF has to be checked as well. A full test procedure would involve the measurement of the arc spring characteristic which requires a test stand and special tooling not available in a workshop. So far, the only option available to the mechanic is a visual inspection of the part. Grease leakage, scores, discoloration etc. are initial symptoms of severe damage to one or more DMF components. Schaeffler Group Automotive Aftermarket has compiled and published comprehensive information on the design and operating principle of the DMF, damage patterns and remedial measures in the form of a video and an illustrated detailed 27-page technical brochure.

 

[Dustydog]

RAY

I've brought this earlier post forward for you. As you can see we have done DMFs to death.

I hope it helps.

Cheers

Alan

 

[xtrailman]

RAY

I've brought this earlier post forward for you. As you can see we have done DMFs to death.

I hope it helps.

Cheers

Alan

cheers Alan,

its a very interesting thread.

clutches burning out have always been a problem.

along with thrust bearing, and worn flywheels in the old days.

As mentioned with all the torque developed from modern diesel engines, its not really surprising that transmissions fail.

I question how many of these burning clutches are due to over adjusted caravan brakes.

If the override is not lifting, then as I see the brakes are still on. Just something to consider.

Also time was, the reverse gear was always the lowest gear, I don't get involved in changing gearboxes and engines anymore so cant say if that still applies.