Condensation Boards for Bailey Pageant

[LadyMaureen]

Yesterday when at the Glasgow caravan show we were lucky enough to spot 3... yes 3 Bailey reps.They are usually as scarce as hens teeth in this neck of the woods. We said that we have a Burgundy almost 1 yr old,but that it does not have condensation boards.We have been assured that we can have them under warranty......either fitted by the dealer or sent to our home for DIY.What a pity though that we had to search for an answer ourselves instead of Bailey informing us.However,anyone else out there....now you have your answer. )

 

[WatsonJohnG]

I posted to that effect a while ago.

I just asked at my dealer and afew weeks later they arrived for the Oklahoma

Still the more of us that say it the more people will be aware of it !!

 

[RichardS1]

Had them fitted to our Oklahoma at the first service in November, only took three days to reach the dealer from Bailey.

 

[Robtel]

Read a post on here a few weeks ago about that. I emailed Bailey who replied next day with request to contact my dealer which I duly did. Van ( Indiana) is in just now for annual service and boards have been fitted. No problem in getting Bailey or dealer to do it but it would have been nice of them to let us know it was available. The dealer did not know about it either until I took in copy of email received. My thanks to who ever it was made the original posting.

I am not going to be able to get to SECC this year due to work committments (sad- work getting in way of leisure time). How was Caravan show in comparison to past years Lady Maureen? anything of note or pparticular interest? Would be interested to hear.

Robert

 

[Russ2]

Pardon my ignorance, but what are condensation boards?

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Hi Russ

They are pieces of wallboard the length of the seating and about a foot high with battens every foot or so so that there is an air gap between them and the wall of the caravan.

The seat cushions then rest against them rather against the colder side of the caravan thus hopefully avoiding condensation.

They are not a new idea but Bailey decided to omit them

 

[Russ2]

Thanks John G for the information, live and learn have been caravanning for 25 years or so and never heard of them!

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Thanks John G for the information, live and learn have been caravanning for 25 years or so and never heard of them!

You are welcome

 

[ProfJohnL]

FAO Lady Maureen,

I am normally ready to criticise caravan manufacturers for poor specification, design and use of materials, but whilst we can demand more from companies it does have to be balanced with reason, and even the best companies in the world are not mind readers.

I have only just read your original posting, and one aspect of it seems a little unfair towards Bailey.

When the caravan was built, if the 'condensation' boards had been omitted by mistake, and this had not been picked up during inspection, then Bailey would not be aware of the problem, and so would have no cause to contact you.

If that was the case, then their offer to have them fitted under warranty is fair and reasonable. I hope it also causes them to review both their construction and inspection processes to prevent this type of omission from reoccurring.

Alternatively If the Burgundy's original design did not include 'condensation' boards, then the caravan supplied was to specification, so there was nor reason for Bailey to contact you to advise about them.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Watson(JohnG)

As a matter of historical accuracy, before 'condensation' boards were created, one of the comfort issues in touring caravans was the cold air from the windows affecting the backs of peoples necks and shoulders during colder weather.

The provision of the boards in conjunction with ventilation slots at the back of the bedding locker allowed hot air ducting with appropriate holes or fittings to be routed through the bedding locker. Hot air would convect up through the slots and up behind the boards (warming the cushions) to emerge just below the windows, where it would counter the cold air down draught.

If the Bailey Burgundy was designed without the boards, them it is unlikely they will have the required slots in the bedding locker to allow the warm air to convect, so simply adding the boards will not provide the same improvement in overall comfort as an OEM specification. It might help a little with condensation but not the full benefit.

The boards and slots arrangement had been common on continental tourers for many years before the UK market started to use it.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Hi John L

You are defending Bailey well which is good but I must point out that Bailey omitted the same condensation boards in the Senator range and they were then supplied under warranty

I learnt of this on this website and applied to my dealer who had then quickly supplied by Bailey.

Bailey now fit them as standard on the Senator range.

The sam scenario now exists for the Pageant range.

The bed lockers are constructed with a slatted top which would allow warm air to convect on the door side of the van but on the off side there are no heating tubes to allow any conducted heat from the trunking.

For heat to be routed behind the condensation boards the ducting would have been fitted with diffusers like on a car windscreen.

There is no such provision and the reason for this is not that the boards were for that purpose but as I explained earlier to keep the seat cushions away from direct contact with the caravan side.

Any existing ducting that would allow waste heat to rise up between the condensation boards and the van side does not run along the wall side but along the front of the bed lockers anyway.

Hope that clarifies the way in which the lockers are constructed

Earlier postings on different threads spoke of damp sleeping bags in weather over the New Year period

It seems unlikely that Bailey would go to the trouble when challenged of providing anti condensation boards under warranty and then including them as a standard fitting if they were unconvinced that they were an improvement.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Hi again John L

I did a search and under condensation Boards and found the posting to which I referred

Hi,

we have just arrived back from a New Yaer stay and were surprised to find that the backs of the seats in the 2005 Series 5 Bailey Pageant were wet due to condensation. We had tried to keep the van warm and well ventilated which during the stay. I recall that when the Series 5 was reviewed the caravan press picked up that it had no anti-condensation boards around the seats or fixed bed, and Bailey's reply was that due to the better insulation and ventilation the were not required. All of our previous vans had been fitted with anti condensation boards. Such was Bailey's development thouroughness for the S5 that it seems they got it wrong. The new Series 6 is now fitted with anti-condensation boards. How can companies make such basic errors in their area of expertise?

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Hi again John L

I did a search and under condensation Boards and found the posting to which I referred

Hi,

we have just arrived back from a New Yaer stay and were surprised to find that the backs of the seats in the 2005 Series 5 Bailey Pageant were wet due to condensation. We had tried to keep the van warm and well ventilated which during the stay. I recall that when the Series 5 was reviewed the caravan press picked up that it had no anti-condensation boards around the seats or fixed bed, and Bailey's reply was that due to the better insulation and ventilation the were not required. All of our previous vans had been fitted with anti condensation boards. Such was Bailey's development thouroughness for the S5 that it seems they got it wrong. The new Series 6 is now fitted with anti-condensation boards. How can companies make such basic errors in their area of expertise?

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/newforums/fm_search.asp

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Hi again John L

I did a search and under condensation Boards and found the posting to which I referred

Hi,

we have just arrived back from a New Yaer stay and were surprised to find that the backs of the seats in the 2005 Series 5 Bailey Pageant were wet due to condensation. We had tried to keep the van warm and well ventilated which during the stay. I recall that when the Series 5 was reviewed the caravan press picked up that it had no anti-condensation boards around the seats or fixed bed, and Bailey's reply was that due to the better insulation and ventilation the were not required. All of our previous vans had been fitted with anti condensation boards. Such was Bailey's development thouroughness for the S5 that it seems they got it wrong. The new Series 6 is now fitted with anti-condensation boards. How can companies make such basic errors in their area of expertise?

The search facility has appeared but without the information I wanted to pass on.

Just insert Condensation Boards in the appropriate box for further postings.Hope that helps

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Watson(JohnG)

I am not defending Bailey's design criteria of the caravan, however regardless of whether the decision was right or wrong to omit the ventilation slots & boards, that was the design that went into production. The fact that the boards were not fitted would not be flagged up as a non-conformance, and so no notice would be necessary to advice customers.

With the benefit customer feedback, it seems that some (but not all) customers have experienced condensation issues.

It is interesting that Bailey answered the customer complaint by referring to the 'improved insulation' and ventilation rather than condensation. It clearly implies that Bailey believed that the boards were not necessary and so they were not part of the original design. Subsequently it seems that Bailey found they were still necessary and has made provision to retro fit them through the warranty scheme when the need arises.

It may interest you to know that a German company did supply ducting with diffusers, a moulded device or a simple modification to the standard duct to project blown warm air up the gap.

It is likely that Bailey have recognised that some customer find they need the ventilation boards, and have made a modification available upon request.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Hi John

What you say is true but from a Bailey owners point of view it could appear and from some postings does appear that Bailey now know that the condensation provision is inadequate but have only supplied people who have found out via this website or other means.

It would appear that as Bailey now fit these boards as standard they are either reacting to customer pressure or adverse reports in the Caravan mags.

It is a source of annoyance and disappointment to some posters that Bailey have not made a blanket recall to fit the boards and you can hardly blame people for being aggrieved when dealers have refused retro fit and only by contacting Bailey direct have they got satisfaction.

My dealer knew nothing about the matter but contacted Bailey,other people who have posted got nowhere with the dealer.

That does not seem like the right way to treat customers or show the right level of care.

In the posting I found it referred to a 2004 van yet there are several postings about 2006 vans so Bailey have not learnt the lessons of history etc.

Did you notice the posting about an 18 year old van with condensation boards and historically that would in UK vans pre date ducted air heating .

 

[johnstafford]

Hi all, slightly confused here. My series 5 pageant provence is going in for it's first service on monday, do I need or even mention the condensation boards ?

Regards John

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Hi Sconny

It depends on whether you consider it a problem

As John has suggested not all people have a problem with damp,probably because they do not go away in very cold weather.

My friend has a series 5 Pageant (2 years old) and that is fitted with anti condensation boards.

Its very unlikely that the dealer will have them in stock but if you feel the need for them then he could order them from Bailey.

Personally I think that its worth having them as condensation could prove a problem in an unheated van during very cold weather when in storage.There will not be the same amount of water vapour in the van as when occupied but I would still want them.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello John W

I am not surprised that Bailey did not issue a 'recall' notice, as such action is usually reserved for situations where safety is implicated. Most companies operate a range warranty or special service notices to cater for a range of product issues. These would generally fall into categories similar to the following:

1. Urgent Safety recall - where a condition has been identified that is likely to cause harm to persons during normal usage - or where a protective safety feature is known to fail operate correctly - or where a legal safety requirement has been breached. Personal letters and widespread urgent publication in newspapers, television etc of the recall notice would be justified.

2. Safety Recall - where under limited and unlikely conditions a product may be come harmful through normal usage. Personals letters, and publication of notice in Newspapers and magazines.

3. Urgent Service Notice - where a condition can arise with a product that is unlikely to cause a safety hazard, but will cause loss of use. - Personal letters, and service bulletin to dealers.

4. Special Service Notice, - Where a condition can arise with a product that does not have a safety implication, but will cause customer irritation. - Notice to dealers.

5. General Service Notice - Where a condition can arise with a product that does not have a safety implication, but will cause some customer irritation. This would also include any notices of new service techniques - Notice to dealers.

Whilst this list is not exhaustive, and as far as I know is not the specific model adopted by Bailey, the issue of ventilation boards would probably fall into category 4.

I did not see the item about and 18 year old caravan, but it is not really relevant to this discussion which is about Bailey's in second millennium designs. For you interest, by 1970 about 40% of new caravans were fitted with some form of heating, and by 1980 virtually all touring caravans had some space heating and about 60% had ducted blown air. In 1986 all but the base models had ducted blown air, so at 18 years old this van would not be exceptional.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

Hi John agree with what you say but Bailey even failed to follow point 4 and several posters on this site have found dealers refusing help which is why Lady M started this thread because she had to recourse to approaching Bailey reps at a caravan show and because other people had had similar experience with dealers claiming ignorance .

I think that we have exhausted this topic ---but its nice to talk and appreciate a different viewpoint

Regards

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Whatever the legal implications if Bailey had a conscience they should show loyalty to their customers with such a serious problem. Is it that difficult to trace the people who have forked out thousands of pounds for one of their products? No it isn't. It's typical of what we have come to expect today though with regards to the public being fobbed off with excuses or silence for shoddy design/workmanship.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi John,

Yes I agree it is nice to have a non-combative discussion. And again for clarity I must stress that I am not defending Bailey or any other manufactures design decisions. Having worked for a major OEM suppler to the Caravan industry, we also had to communicate with the majority of caravan dealerships.

As with all walks of life there were all shades of good and bad, and of course some movement within the range. One of the biggest difficulties we had with some dealers was when they did not read the service bulletins we sent them, or they disagreed or misunderstood them. This invariably caused customer dissatisfaction and we had to intervene. I assume that the caravan manufactures would have had similar issues with some dealers. Dealers are Human too!

Hello your Lordship,

I agree that a business should respect and value its customers, and where possible it actually makes good sense to try and accommodate all customer issues, but in reality a business cannot afford to address all issues equally, so it has to rank them in some order of importance.

The condensation issue may not affect all Bailey customers - we don't know how 'serious' it is, and I doubt if bailey would divulge the figure anyway. However their response suggests to me that only a relatively small proportion of owners have reported it as a problem, so Bailey have funded the installation of panels on demand.

It is Human nature to be happy if nothing goes wrong, but when something does not perform properly then the whole world knows about it. For that reason you cannot judge the real scale of a problem based solely on the number of responses in this forum. It is highly biased towards the negative side of issues.

If condensation does affect more Bailey customers, and they report it, perhaps Baileys response will change.