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[LizziePope]

Just click here for advice from Practical Caravan's expert about matching your car and caravan.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Sponsored by Milenco?

All compression column sprung nose load gauges suffer one major flaw in their use. unless they by chance settle at EXACTLY the same length as the loaded tow ball height of the tow vehicle, they do not give the correct nose load reading for the outfit.

 

[Dustydog]

Sponsored by Milenco?

All compression column sprung nose load gauges suffer one major flaw in their use. unless they by chance settle at EXACTLY the same length as the loaded tow ball height of the tow vehicle, they do not give the correct nose load reading for the outfit.

I don't use them but why do they boast they conform to BS7691??
What is BS7691?? I couldn't find anything :woohoo:

 

[otherclive]

BS7691:
BS 7691:1994
Methods for testing resistance to environmental conditions of electronic equipment used in agriculture and horticulture

Clear as mud?

 

[SamandRose]

Prof - is there anything better to use than an unreliable noseweight guage? If not, how could the police or anyone else determine that your van's noseweight was over your car's limit?

Otherwise, the article seems to me to be missing a trick by not at least mentioning that performance is a consideration for towing, if less importantly than safety. As an example, all 2WD versions of the VW Passat weigh about the same. However, the engines vary from a 1.4 petrol, which I haven't driven but imagine couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding, to a 150bhp 2.0 TDI, which I can testify is fine when towing 85% or so of its kerbweight, to a 240bhp twin turbo diesel which could probably (though obviously not safely or legally) pull part of your house down if you tried.

And please, the weight of the driver? 75kg? I wish ...

 

[otherclive]

Prof - is there anything better to use than an unreliable noseweight guage? If not, how could the police or anyone else determine that your van's noseweight was over your car's limit?

Otherwise, the article seems to me to be missing a trick by not at least mentioning that performance is a consideration for towing, if less importantly than safety. As an example, all 2WD versions of the VW Passat weigh about the same. However, the engines vary from a 1.4 petrol, which I haven't driven but imagine couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding, to a 150bhp 2.0 TDI, which I can testify is fine when towing 85% or so of its kerbweight, to a 240bhp twin turbo diesel which could probably (though obviously not safely or legally) pull part of your house down if you tried.

And please, the weight of the driver? 75kg? I wish ...

If you carry out a Forum search you will find a number (lots) of explanations by Prof as to how to measure noseweight using bathroom scales: preferably "honest" ones. I measured mine using that approach which then allowed me to "calibrate " my Milenco gauge as we don't take scales on holiday as they would ruin the fun of BBQs etc.

 

[Mel]

Prof - is there anything better to use than an unreliable noseweight guage? If not, how could the police or anyone else determine that your van's noseweight was over your car's limit?

Otherwise, the article seems to me to be missing a trick by not at least mentioning that performance is a consideration for towing, if less importantly than safety. As an example, all 2WD versions of the VW Passat weigh about the same. However, the engines vary from a 1.4 petrol, which I haven't driven but imagine couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding, to a 150bhp 2.0 TDI, which I can testify is fine when towing 85% or so of its kerbweight, to a 240bhp twin turbo diesel which could probably (though obviously not safely or legally) pull part of your house down if you tried.

And please, the weight of the driver? 75kg? I wish ...

Noooooooooooooooooo.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dusty and Clive
You know for a couple of years I tried to find out what the standard said, and yes like both of you I came up with
V
BS 7691:1994
Methods for testing resistance to environmental conditions of electronic equipment used in agriculture and horticulture.
However I dug a little deeper and found that in other documents the BS number was quoted as BS7961 (6 & 9 Transposed) and bingo that came back as:-
https://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDetail/?pid=000000000030021356

"BS 7961:2004
Specification for a device for measuring the static vertical mass (noseweight)at the coupling point of the towed vehicle."

Unfortunately to access this standard I need to pay £98 .If the standard directs manufacturers to produce a compression spring loaded device like the Milenco then I'm not about to waste my money. as clearly it fails to address the fundamental flaw I have mentioned so many times. However the description includes references to

EU 94/20/EC and readable copy can be found at
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:31994L0020&from=EN

Any product that does not conform to relevant standards should be rejected immediately. But just becasue a product does conform to a standard, it does not automatically mean it will do a good job, it only means it has reached the minimum requirement of the standard. It all depends on how the standard is written. It is my view that standards (whether British, Euro, ISO or any other) represent a minimum requirement and users should seek to exceed the standard and improve the genre.

As far as I know, no other manufacture of nose load gauges claims compliance with the standard, so it raises a question in my mind - who wrote the standard, and was it sponsored by a particular company?

Incidentally my continued reference to "nose load" rather than "nose weight" is because EU 94/20/EC defines the S value as the Static vertical Load in Kg.

SamandRose - Hi

There are methods other than spring gauges that will enable the nose load to be established. The most common method is to use a weighbridge that can measure the car with and without the caravan hitched. The difference in the cars weight will be the nose load. Care has to be taken to ensure the caravan and car are both on the same horizontal level, so its more common to use a roll over axle weight weigh bridge.

I have seen a device like a mini engine hoist fitted with a hanging load cell. This can be used to lift the caravan hitch and when it reaches the tow balls load height the reading is taken with a 0.1kg accuracy. You could do the same thing with sack type hook scale.

But for ordinary domestic caravanners, the bathroom scales on the step and pack up with magazines to get the correct height will be certainly safer than sticks on top of bathroom scales and more accurate and cheaper than the vast majority of retail compression spring nose load gauges.

 

[Parksy]

I've no idea what standard ( if any) my bathroom scales conform to, so I'm happy to continue to use my Millenco nose weight gauge on a sturdy wooden block which is adjusted to the correct hitch height using old magazines.
As far as I'm concerned this method is accurate enough given that the nose load changes when the caravan is being towed because of variations in road surfaces.

 

[KeefySher]

I wonder which bathroom scales (in our case downstairs cloakroom scales) are issued to PC Plod in his panda, or VOSA van man. Are they calibrated? Is there a calibration stercificate issued at a periodicity to ensure calibration? Are the magazines the same edition, and are they kept at the same temperature and humidity so they have the same resilience for the application of the caravan nose wot they have pulled over to check on a random stop, or regular holiday season blitz. Are the scales analogue clock type dial display with a mechanical interface to measure the applied load, or digital? If digital are the batteries at sufficient level of charge to operate correctly? Are the batterie rechargeable, and from the vehicle cigarette lighter socket? Have the operators be it PC Plod or VOSA van man been trained and deemed competent to be on the scales, and is that competence available by seeing a card? Do they get paid an extra shilling for maintaining that card? Is the block of wood hard wood or soft wood? Has it been treated for water ingress? Wot if it has dry rot, or woodworm? Is there a tape measure in the kit? Is it metal or fabric? Has it been calibrated and stercificated? Is there a level? Is it spirit or laser? Is the bubble in the middle? Does all this meet the standard?

There is more to this nose weight lark than first appears.

Happy caravanning

 

[Craigyoung]

Keefysher,
im going to screenshot your last post and if i ever should be pulled over by Vosa , im going to read that to them if the scales come out ! !

Craig

 

[otherclive]

I guess that the load cell equipment sold by Reich to measure your caravan weight would also do the trick, but again it is very expensive and a combination of weighbridge and/or bathroom scales would do the job more at lest cost. I tend to take the Milenco gauge when away but don't often have tc use it as by and large things don't change much as we are well versed in packing the van for its return home trip in the same manner that we pack it for its outbound trip. I guess its just one of those bits of kit that I carry in the car....just in case.

 

[Raywood]

It is a useful article for be3ginners and I think the discussion on nose weights is getting very detailed.
Frankly I cannot see anyway of measuring the nose weight absolutely accurately. The need to get the weight measured at hitch height means that all systems are vulnerable to some inaccuracy. Gauges are unlikely to be exactly right but should be near provided they are calibrated correctly. You would hope that they are manufactured to work in between the allowance for hitch height allowed by law but I cannot be sure they all are. Having got that far just what difference does the minor difference in height make.
The bathroom scales method relies on the scales being accurate and given the cost of these I do wonder. After that you have to cut the wood you are using to the exact length needed but if you then find the weight is too heavy or light the change in nose weight will alter the hitch height slightly so your wood is now the wrong size. You simply have to do your best and hope you are right.
Even the authorities if measuring your nose weight they would have to check the hitch height first and then measure it at that. Presumably they do not and if so would be only able to proceed if the weight was excessive rather than marginal.
I note the 85% figure is shown as recommendation for beginners now.

 

[Parksy]

Keefysher,
im going to screenshot your last post and if i ever should be pulled over by Vosa , im going to read that to them if the scales come out ! !

Craig

If a towing vehicle and trailer (or caravan) happened to be checked by VOSA they would be much more likely to be interested in the overall weight of the caravan, the towing vehicle, and the train weight with regard to driving licence requirements, and of course the condition of the vehicles involved.
The likelihood of a successful prosecution based on a couple of kilos over the noseweight limit alone is as remote as the possibility of a family of extra terrestrials occupying the adjacent pitch to yours on a caravan site during a wet August Bank Holiday weekend.
Of course all weight limits must be adhered to and every reasonable effort must be made to comply with legal limits, but although it has often been argued that the nose weight gauge that conforms to BS 7961:2004 is unreliable, it is a recognised designated measuring device which meets the UK statutory requirement, and this fact could be used as a valid defence in the highly unlikely event of court procedure based on a disputed noseweight figure taking place.

 

[otherclive]

Keefysher,
im going to screenshot your last post and if i ever should be pulled over by Vosa , im going to read that to them if the scales come out ! !

Craig

If a towing vehicle and trailer (or caravan) happened to be checked by VOSA they would be much more likely to be interested in the overall weight of the caravan, the towing vehicle, and the train weight with regard to driving licence requirements, and of course the condition of the vehicles involved.
The likelihood of a successful prosecution based on a couple of kilos over the noseweight limit alone is as remote as the possibility of a family of extra terrestrials occupying the adjacent pitch to yours on a caravan site during a wet August Bank Holiday weekend.
Of course all weight limits must be adhered to and every reasonable effort must be made to comply with legal limits, but although it has often been argued that the nose weight gauge that conforms to BS 7961:2004 is unreliable, it is a recognised designated measuring device which meets the UK statutory requirement, and this fact could be used as a valid defence in the highly unlikely event of court procedure based on a disputed noseweight figure taking place.

I am certain that if VOSA found your noseweight to be too high for the car or below the legal limit all other aspects being correct they would advise you to just transfer a bit of load.
Regarding the accuracy of bathroom scales ours are used for weighing suitcases and whilst I think they read far too heavy they align with the airline check in weights to within .25 kg

 

[Martin24]

I really must measure my nose weight one day. Perhaps if and when we change the van.

 

[Anseo]

This nose weight thingy you speak of intrigues me, what is it?, perhaps someone should start a thread to explain this thingy. Perhaps a 'sticky' is in order.

Anseo

 

[Dustydog]

Keefysher,
im going to screenshot your last post and if i ever should be pulled over by Vosa , im going to read that to them if the scales come out ! !

Craig

If a towing vehicle and trailer (or caravan) happened to be checked by VOSA they would be much more likely to be interested in the overall weight of the caravan, the towing vehicle, and the train weight with regard to driving licence requirements, and of course the condition of the vehicles involved.
The likelihood of a successful prosecution based on a couple of kilos over the noseweight limit alone is as remote as the possibility of a family of extra terrestrials occupying the adjacent pitch to yours on a caravan site during a wet August Bank Holiday weekend.
Of course all weight limits must be adhered to and every reasonable effort must be made to comply with legal limits, but although it has often been argued that the nose weight gauge that conforms to BS 7961:2004 is unreliable, it is a recognised designated measuring device which meets the UK statutory requirement, and this fact could be used as a valid defence in the highly unlikely event of court procedure based on a disputed noseweight figure taking place.

Those who know me will have seen me using my Reich nose Load Guage for my TA. Yes It is accurate. I’ve tested it.
But for those who use the bathroom scales. How do you know they are accurate??
I belong to the Fat Club. I’m not alone
They recalibrate their scales on a regular basis to the last gram. Bathroom scales, Milencos and my Reich are as you find them. Treat them as a guide only and look for , say a 15% variance. My opinion with no scientific basis. :silly: :silly:
All the things you use are a guide NOT an absolute accurate measure, magazines or sticks not excepted.
But we are the ones who do try to be correct. Well done guys

 

[otherclive]

Keefysher,
im going to screenshot your last post and if i ever should be pulled over by Vosa , im going to read that to them if the scales come out ! !

Craig

If a towing vehicle and trailer (or caravan) happened to be checked by VOSA they would be much more likely to be interested in the overall weight of the caravan, the towing vehicle, and the train weight with regard to driving licence requirements, and of course the condition of the vehicles involved.
The likelihood of a successful prosecution based on a couple of kilos over the noseweight limit alone is as remote as the possibility of a family of extra terrestrials occupying the adjacent pitch to yours on a caravan site during a wet August Bank Holiday weekend.
Of course all weight limits must be adhered to and every reasonable effort must be made to comply with legal limits, but although it has often been argued that the nose weight gauge that conforms to BS 7961:2004 is unreliable, it is a recognised designated measuring device which meets the UK statutory requirement, and this fact could be used as a valid defence in the highly unlikely event of court procedure based on a disputed noseweight figure taking place.

Those who know me will have seen me using my Reich nose Load Guage for my TA. Yes It is accurate. I’ve tested it.
But for those who use the bathroom scales. How do you know they are accurate??
I belong to the Fat Club. I’m not alone
They recalibrate their scales on a regular basis to the last gram. Bathroom scales, Milencos and my Reich are as you find them. Treat them as a guide only and look for , say a 15% variance. My opinion with no scientific basis. :silly: :silly:
All the things you use are a guide NOT an absolute accurate measure, magazines or sticks not excepted.
But we are the ones who do try to be correct. Well done guys

Whilst I don't disagree with the thrust of your comments. How do you check the accuracy of your Reich device? I have five tyre pressure gauges. Two electronic. One bourbon tube and two Schraeder pens. All give different readings by around 6psi. Which one do I chose to believe? Van went in for service and I'd set the tyres to 59 psi yet the dealership recorded them at 54psi. Whose right? However I do disagree with your comments wrt bathroom scales. There are accurate ones out there. Ours will weigh holiday suitcases at 0.25 kg in 23 kg accuracy when compared to the airline check in scales. I know this is below the norm for noseweight but when I weigh suitcases there's 123 kg on the scales if the suitcase is included. So there are accurate ones out there it's a case of you pays your money.

 

[Dustydog]

Clive.

The Reich is checked against my electronic bathroom scales. Accuracy? Who knows?
The Fat Club, Slimming World , check the calibration of their scales monthly.
Us tuggers don’t.
Our domestic scales are not accurate but I understand the level of their inaccuracy.
Anything is better than nothing. Any attempt anyone makes to test their nose load is a step in the right direction.

 

[Parksy]

Whilst I don't disagree with the thrust of your comments. How do you check the accuracy of your Reich device? I have five tyre pressure gauges. Two electronic. One bourbon tube and two Schraeder pens. All give different readings by around 6psi. Which one do I chose to believe? Van went in for service and I'd set the tyres to 59 psi yet the dealership recorded them at 54psi. Whose right? However I do disagree with your comments wrt bathroom scales. There are accurate ones out there. Ours will weigh holiday suitcases at 0.25 kg in 23 kg accuracy when compared to the airline check in scales. I know this is below the norm for noseweight but when I weigh suitcases there's 123 kg on the scales if the suitcase is included. So there are accurate ones out there it's a case of you pays your money.

Clive.

The Reich is checked against my electronic bathroom scales. Accuracy? Who knows?
The Fat Club, Slimming World , check the calibration of their scales monthly.
Us tuggers don’t.
Our domestic scales are not accurate but I understand the level of their inaccuracy.
Anything is better than nothing. Any attempt anyone makes to test their nose load is a step in the right direction.

I completely agree DD.
The point that I'm trying to make is that if a caravanner was facing prosecution for excessive noseweight, however unlikely that may be, the fact that a commercially available noseweight gauge which conformed to UK statutes was in the possession of the defendant, even though the gauge might not be 100% accurate, could prove that the defendant had taken reasonable steps to comply with the regulations.
Such a prosecution could not therefore succeed.
For those who prefer to use bathroom scales, fine, crack on, at least you are trying to do the right thing.
Our bathroom scales are not particularly accurate so the bathroom scale method suggested by the Prof, no doubt in good faith, is to my mind no more accurate or reliable than the method that I use, which is to raise my Milenco noseweight gauge to the average tow hitch height of my towcar on level ground and to take the measurement.
Neither method is guaranteed to be 100% accurate, but at least the noseweight gauge (which I'd already bought anyway) when used at the correct mean hitch height on level ground is a product which is sold on the basis that it will do the job, therefore I have taken reasonable steps to comply with the regulations.
If I hadn't bought a noseweight gauge would I buy one now?
Probably not, I'd use the bathroom scale method and save myself a couple of quid, but like many other caravan owners, I bought the gauge as a newbie at the time without realising that these gauges are no more accurate than my home bathroom scales.

 

[Dustydog]

Whilst I don't disagree with the thrust of your comments. How do you check the accuracy of your Reich device? I have five tyre pressure gauges. Two electronic. One bourbon tube and two Schraeder pens. All give different readings by around 6psi. Which one do I chose to believe? Van went in for service and I'd set the tyres to 59 psi yet the dealership recorded them at 54psi. Whose right? However I do disagree with your comments wrt bathroom scales. There are accurate ones out there. Ours will weigh holiday suitcases at 0.25 kg in 23 kg accuracy when compared to the airline check in scales. I know this is below the norm for noseweight but when I weigh suitcases there's 123 kg on the scales if the suitcase is included. So there are accurate ones out there it's a case of you pays your money.

Clive.

The Reich is checked against my electronic bathroom scales. Accuracy? Who knows?
The Fat Club, Slimming World , check the calibration of their scales monthly.
Us tuggers don’t.
Our domestic scales are not accurate but I understand the level of their inaccuracy.
Anything is better than nothing. Any attempt anyone makes to test their nose load is a step in the right direction.

I completely agree DD.
The point that I'm trying to make is that if a caravanner was facing prosecution for excessive noseweight, however unlikely that may be, the fact that a commercially available noseweight gauge which conformed to UK statutes was in the possession of the defendant, even though the gauge might not be 100% accurate, could prove that the defendant had taken reasonable steps to comply with the regulations.
Such a prosecution could not therefore succeed.
For those who prefer to use bathroom scales, fine, crack on, at least you are trying to do the right thing.
Our bathroom scales are not particularly accurate so the bathroom scale method suggested by the Prof, no doubt in good faith, is to my mind no more accurate or reliable than the method that I use, which is to raise my Milenco noseweight gauge to the average tow hitch height of my towcar on level ground and to take the measurement.
Neither method is guaranteed to be 100% accurate, but at least the noseweight gauge (which I'd already bought anyway) when used at the correct mean hitch height on level ground is a product which is sold on the basis that it will do the job, therefore I have taken reasonable steps to comply with the regulations.
If I hadn't bought a noseweight gauge would I buy one now?
Probably not, I'd use the bathroom scale method and save myself a couple of quid, but like many other caravan owners, I bought the gauge as a newbie at the time without realising that these gauges are no more accurate than my home bathroom scales.

And so Steve we are one here.
Go to Fat Club or WW and use their scales

 

[Martin24]

Fat club would probably only let you use their scales if you had an 8' wide van. :blink:

 

[otherclive]

Oh and I thought that Fat Club was the opposite of Slimming World or Weight Watchers. No wonder I couldn't sign up.

 

[Gafferbill]

Gafferbill's 10 tips on checking nose weight on single axle caravans.
The following will give inaccurate readings if not adhered to.

1: Clean caravan roof of bird excrement especially if the spread fore and aft of axle line is not even.
2: Make sure gutter above windows at front of caravan (if fitted) is dry and not full of debris.
3: Do not stand on A frame to take the readings.
4: Remember to detach the caravan from the tow car.
5: Readings must be taken whilst the caravan is on a level surface and stationary.
6: Handbrake must be off with both wheels chocked.
7: Hitch height during measurement must be the same as when attached to towing vehicle.
8: All steadies must be wound up and not touching the ground.
9: Do not take readings on days when wind speeds are above 20mph.
10: Remember to raise jockey wheel to obtain reading when using the acclaimed bathroom scales method.

Hope that helps