Customer Survey Results

[Raywood]

We have just got an e mail from the magazine indicating the latest survey results. What is noticeable is not that Adria and Coachman came first and second as they always do but Eldiss appeared third with a vastly improved score rather, than their usual last.. They seem to have shot up the leader board and passed both Swift and Bailey. This seems to be a remarkable improvement and we cam only hope hey keep it up. To be honest none of the figures are that good, even Adria failed to get 90% and the rest failed to reach 80% which I think is down on last year.

 

[Mr Plodd]

I think that just maybe an awful lot of caravan purchasers seem to think that absolutely everything within a caravan is made by the caravan makers, rather than realising that many if the items are bought in from others, such as cookers, fridges/water/space heaters/microwaves etc, so when these items go wrong they lump the "blame" onto Adria/Bailey/Coachman/ Eldiss etc. So when say a fridge goes wrong it's the fault of Swift/Bailey etc and not Dometic/Thetford.

That's not to say that there are not faults that are down to the caravan makers, just that an awful lot are not.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think that just maybe an awful lot of caravan purchasers seem to think that absolutely everything within a caravan is made by the caravan makers, rather than realising that many if the items are bought in from others, such as cookers, fridges/water/space heaters/microwaves etc, so when these items go wrong they lump the "blame" onto Adria/Bailey/Coachman/ Eldiss etc. So when say a fridge goes wrong it's the fault of Swift/Bailey etc and not Dometic/Thetford.

That's not to say that there are not faults that are down to the caravan makers, just that an awful lot are not.

From my own professional involvement with two OEM gas appliance suppliers to the caravan market between 1980 and 2000.

We knew that all the gas products we sent to caravan manufacturer's were 100% working when they left our factory. This is becasue they only were issued with a serial number upon completion of an end of line test sequence.

We used bespoke bulk packaging and our own transport to supply the caravan manufacturers, so thus we knew the product reached the manufacturer in very good condition.

Despite this care that we lavished, we frequently had returns from the manufactures, with damage such as scratched paintwork, bent panels and brackets, we even had product returned where it had forklift tyre tracks impressed into it, and on one occasion we have 5 pallets of product with rectangular holes which looked like lift truck forks piercing the product, Parts removed, and some where pallets of product had clearly been left out in the rain.

I estimate that 90% of the faults reported to us in new caravans by dealers and customers were the result of poor handling or installation by the caravan manufacturers.

The situation may have changed since 2000, but ...........

 

[Buckman]

I estimate that 90% of the faults reported to us in new caravans by dealers and customers were the result of poor handling or installation by the caravan manufacturers.

The situation may have changed since 2000, but ...........

I think poor installation is a very big factor which in addition to other issues is why people have hassles with fridges in hot weather.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think poor installation is a very big factor which in addition to other issues is why people have hassles with fridges in hot weather.

Caravan manufacturers are guilty of many installation issues, some of which can impair the performance of an appliance. However in the case of hot weather and fridges, in most cases its the hot weather thats the unusual factor rather than just the caravan manufacturers installation.

Absorption fridges have a limited range of ambient temperatures in which they will function most effectively. if you dig into the details you will find the fridge manufacturers might have alternative refrigerant combinations to service different climate conditions.

If the caravan is used in an extreme ambient temperature outside the fridges designed range then it's hardly surprising they can struggle.

The addition of fan assisted cooling for some situations can extend the working high temperature range for the fridge.

Perhaps the increase in the number of occasions caravan fridges need assisted cooling is another indicator showing the climate is heating up.

 

[Buckman]

Caravan manufacturers are guilty of many installation issues, some of which can impair the performance of an appliance. However in the case of hot weather and fridges, in most cases its the hot weather thats the unusual factor rather than just the caravan manufacturers installation.

Absorption fridges have a limited range of ambient temperatures in which they will function most effectively. if you dig into the details you will find the fridge manufacturers might have alternative refrigerant combinations to service different climate conditions.

If the caravan is used in an extreme ambient temperature outside the fridges designed range then it's hardly surprising they can struggle.

The addition of fan assisted cooling for some situations can extend the working high temperature range for the fridge.

Perhaps the increase in the number of occasions caravan fridges need assisted cooling is another indicator showing the climate is heating up.

Perhaps many years ago the fridges were fitted correctly with good airflow over the fins and also they were the under counter fridge, but now the issue is with the new "tall" fridges fitted into many caravans and inadequate air flow over the fins so nothing to do with climate change.

Anyway I hardly think and increase of less than 1C over a century is going to make much difference whether a fridge works adequately or not.

 

[otherclive]

Perhaps many years ago the fridges were fitted correctly with good airflow over the fins and also they were the under counter fridge, but now the issue is with the new "tall" fridges fitted into many caravans and inadequate air flow over the fins so nothing to do with climate change.

Anyway I hardly think and increase of less than 1C over a century is going to make much difference whether a fridge works adequately or not.

The 1 deg C or more likely 1.5-2.0 deg c are global temperature averages and the fridge is more likely to be affected by localised increased temperatures that emanate from global increases.

 

[RogerL]

The 1 deg C or more likely 1.5-2.0 deg c are global temperature averages and the fridge is more likely to be affected by localised increased temperatures that emanate from global increases.

As predicted, the global climate change is giving us more extremes of weather - like many things we can't just go on averages.

 

[otherclive]

As predicted, the global climate change is giving us more extremes of weather - like many things we can't just go on averages.

The global figures are obtained from numerous measurements taken over a 12 month period and statistically combined to give a single global figure to compare with previous global figures. Locally and even regionally they mean very little in respect of weather and climate exoerinced. But the global measurements can provide the basis for modelling what lower level events could occur.

The basic facts are that an increase in global temperatures seems to have a strong linkage to the more extreme weather events being experienced regionally throughout the seasons.

 

[Dustydog]

I really don’t believe these customer surveys. Any one who has just spent £40 k on a leaking sieve will not admit it. They may be concerned the supplying dealer will find out who they are and make life very difficult even with CRA.
The Company Car surveys of old were probably more accurate. The drivers were hyper critical of their Cavaliers and Sierrras yet these cars were pretty bullet proof.
Why aren’t caravans viewed more sensibly, so much so , no one will ever buy one until they too become bullet proof😎

 

[ProfJohnL]

Anyway I hardly think and increase of less than 1C over a century is going to make much difference whether a fridge works adequately or not.

Consider the excessive weather seen across Europe over the last few years.

If you google "dometic caravan fridges ambient temperature ranges" you will see that Dometic set an ambient temperature range of +10°C to +32°C The effectiveness of the refrigerator will tail off if you go above +32C and that means fridges will not be able to maintain the prefered +3 to +5 internal temp range.

If your caravan is positioned so the side wall with fridge vents faces the sun just consider how hot that wall can get. It can easily exceed 60C on the outside surface in a normal UK summer, yet alone an extreme heat event. Some of that temperature will transfer to the fridges venting system.

 

[Buckman]

Consider the excessive weather seen across Europe over the last few years.

If you google "dometic caravan fridges ambient temperature ranges" you will see that Dometic set an ambient temperature range of +10°C to +32°C The effectiveness of the refrigerator will tail off if you go above +32C and that means fridges will not be able to maintain the prefered +3 to +5 internal temp range.

If your caravan is positioned so the side wall with fridge vents faces the sun just consider how hot that wall can get. It can easily exceed 60C on the outside surface in a normal UK summer, yet alone an extreme heat event. Some of that temperature will transfer to the fridges venting system.

The efficiency of the fridge has absolutely ZERO to do with climate change so not even sure why you decided to drag up a contentious subject again?

In many cases the fridge is not fitted correctly and the air flow over the fins is poor hence the fridge not cooling correctly. We had this issue with our Lunar and they needed to remove the fridge and refit it. No more issues after that even in very hot weather.

 

[ProfJohnL]

In so far that climate change seems to be causing more extreme weather events, and particularly here in Europe and the UK excessive heat waves, it does affect the efficacy of absorbtion fridges, when ambient temperatures exceed the fridges maximum working temperature.

I have not excluded poor fitting of fridges which can of course occur, but an increasing number of incidents will be down more super hot days rather than just poor fitting.

I'm no fan of UK caravan manufacturers design and production processes which continue to make the same mistakes year after year, basically because their end users have allowed then to get away with them for years. They haven't learned the lesson of how keeping quality in mind from design through to customer support is a small price to pay for enormous gains and savings through fewer costly warranty issues, and a much stronger satisfied customer and dealer base.

 

[Beardy]

We knew that all the gas products we sent to caravan manufacturer's were 100% working when they left our factory. This is becasue they only were issued with a serial number upon completion of an end of line test sequence.

So you knew that the person carrying out the end of line test sequence was completing it correctly, not having a bad day or disgruntled because they'd just had a rollicking from their manager because they weren't getting product out fast enough? You knew that all the test instrumentation they were using was connected properly and functioning correctly on every test? You knew that they didn’t accidentally scratch a unit or bend a bracket and send it out anyway to avoid repercussions from their manager? You knew that they weren't 'fudging' an occasional test result to keep production figures up? You knew that the forklift driver loading the lorry didn't damage a pallet and fail to report it, hoping that it wouldn't be noticed before it was unloaded on delivery?

I've seen failings in all of the above in manufacturing, and more. I concede that I've never worked in anything related to the caravan industry, maybe quality control is better than it is within other industries.

 

[otherclive]

So you knew that the person carrying out the end of line test sequence was completing it correctly, not having a bad day or disgruntled because they'd just had a rollicking from their manager because they weren't getting product out fast enough? You knew that all the test instrumentation they were using was connected properly and functioning correctly on every test? You knew that they didn’t accidentally scratch a unit or bend a bracket and send it out anyway to avoid repercussions from their manager? You knew that they weren't 'fudging' an occasional test result to keep production figures up? You knew that the forklift driver loading the lorry didn't damage a pallet and fail to report it, hoping that it wouldn't be noticed before it was unloaded on delivery?

I've seen failings in all of the above in manufacturing, and more. I concede that I've never worked in anything related to the caravan industry, maybe quality control is better than it is within other industries.

You forgot to comment on test equipment being within calibration date🙁 But the above is a cynical view of extreme issues all rolled into one.

 

[Raywood]

I really don’t believe these customer surveys. Any one who has just spent £40 k on a leaking sieve will not admit it. They may be concerned the supplying dealer will find out who they are and make life very difficult even with CRA.
The Company Car surveys of old were probably more accurate. The drivers were hyper critical of their Cavaliers and Sierrras yet these cars were pretty bullet proof.
Why aren’t caravans viewed more sensibly, so much so , no one will ever buy one until they too become bullet proof😎

I think surveys can be misleading but these have now been running for years. Given hat they are pretty consistent with Adria and Coachman almost always being top (except for one year when Sprite won) and Eldiss either bottom or second bottom the results must be pretty accurate. The improvement by Eldiss needs to be maintained to prove their promotion is justified but it is a step in the right direction.
You do wonder if Bailey will comment and let us know what they are going to do to correct their result.

 

[ProfJohnL]

So you knew that the person carrying out the end of line test sequence was completing it correctly, not having a bad day or disgruntled because they'd just had a rollicking from their manager because they weren't getting product out fast enough? You knew that all the test instrumentation they were using was connected properly and functioning correctly on every test? You knew that they didn’t accidentally scratch a unit or bend a bracket and send it out anyway to avoid repercussions from their manager? You knew that they weren't 'fudging' an occasional test result to keep production figures up? You knew that the forklift driver loading the lorry didn't damage a pallet and fail to report it, hoping that it wouldn't be noticed before it was unloaded on delivery?

I've seen failings in all of the above in manufacturing, and more. I concede that I've never worked in anything related to the caravan industry, maybe quality control is better than it is within other industries.

That is a very cynical view almost worthy of my self.....

Of course if anyone is intent on committing criminal damage or sabotage almost any system can be overcome. As far I know we did not have any disgruntled employees with any such intentions.

But what I can say with assurance the work force we had in our division were incredibly stable and turnover was very low principally just retirement.

The business had invested and became the first UK business in the LPG gas appliance industry to become accredited and maintaining to BS 5750 and later it successfully transitioned to BS EN 9001 covering design and production systems.

Unlike many other sectors Gas appliances designs cannot be self certified for CE or UKCA approval. They have to be assessed for compliance with relevant standards and regulations by an independent Test House. This includes the production methods used and ability to maintain traceability of supplies back through the supply chain.

The manufacturing process including warehousing used for our gas, electrical and mechanical products were all continuously reviewed and when possible revised to reduce/eliminate possible manufacturing faults. The risks of accidental damage had been designed out of our processes.

Ultimately the final testing of gas appliances was automated, and the serial number could only be produced when the UUT had passed all prescribed tests. It would not be possible for an operator to falsely produce a serial number. All the production test equipment was controlled through a QA system which regularly checked the calibration of all measurement systems used in the business, and several times a day products were taken from completed production for secondary and more detailed quality and reliability assessment.

 

[Beardy]

That is a very cynical view almost worthy of my self.....

I guess that over 30 years in manufacturing in various guises has made me that way (packaging, automotive, chemical, electronic and now medical).

Medical QC is in a completely different league to any other industry I've worked in. It's not unusual for batches of product to be scrapped after passing 100% automated testing, then manual sample testing on the production line but finally failing laboratory tests. If there is the slightest possibility of a single defective item reaching the end user and causing injury (or worse) the whole batch is scrapped.

Part of my job is assisting in CAPA's (Corrective And Prevetative Actions), investigating why something went wrong and how to make sure it doesn't happen again. The route cause can almost always be traced back to human error in one form or another, be that inadequate design of equipment, inadequate procedures, or someone failing to follow a procedure (for a multitude of different reasons).

One of my favourite quotes is from Douglas Adams “A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.”

 

[Gozza2]

One of my favourite quotes is from Douglas Adams “A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.”

When I worked in quality assurance, we used a line based on the one about better mousetraps -
"As soon as you make something idiot-proof, nature invents a better idiot"

Now I work in health and safety and I console myself with the knowledge that if people never did stupid things, I wouldn't have a job.

This is meant as a light hearted post but just in case, I'm not saying accidents happen because the person who got hurt did something stupid, but an astonishing number of root cause investigations lead back to someone, somewhere doing something stupid.

 

[Hutch]

I love that, Douglas Adams Quote. 👏👏👏
There is always Murphy's Law. If it can be done wrongly, it will be done.

 

[GaryB]

Has there ever been a dealer satisfaction survey?

 

[otherclive]

Has there ever been a dealer satisfaction survey?

I seem to recall that there was a dealer satisfaction element to the annual survey.

 

[Dustydog]

Just received my magazine.
Statistics prove nothing. Adria sales were 2.3% compared to Bailey at 27.7% and Swift at 37%.
The Dealer aspect was interesting. It appears those awarded medals in 2023 did not factor in the 2024 results.🤔🤔
Not sure why that was but if my reading is correct then hardly surprising new names appear as top drawer dealers. But how do they compare to the 2023 winners🙀Eventually all the top dealers will achieve gold / silver medals. Then those not worthy get a gong🤔🤔. In the end the numbers of caravan manufacturers and Dealers are so small maybe everyone has a chance of a gong as the years expire😉
But worth the read to see who’s who.

 

[Buckman]

I agree as the same applies with the Which reviews. Every week there seems to be a different brand that scores the highest in its category and some are brands I have never heard about. Now we stick to known brands with a good reputation as been bitten once to often going for an item with the highest score!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Survey's are almost always the averaged results from a sample, and as we should all realise when you see an "average" there must be some variation in the individual responses. If you make a purchase based on a survey result you are just as much risk of receiving a product or service which is better or worse than the average shown in the conclusions.

Where I would disagree with the comments about "Which?" reviews is that the Consumers Association has a long history and track record of professionally gathering evidence and their reviews usually take into account not just the average result, but also the spread or consistency of results.

However even when a product or service is highly recommended by "Which?", it is only a better probability of satisfactory performance compared to other brands. It certainly isn't a guarantee, and of course a failure may not be caused by the manufacturer, it could be transit, it could be fitting, or it might even be the owner buying the wrong product or using it incorrectly.