Air pollution?

[toad a caravan]

Sky's turned blue,, possible cause yellow disc emitting light and heat,,😄

 

[ProfJohnL]

Sky's turned blue,, possible cause yellow disc emitting light and heat,,😄

Sounds like global warming to me....

 

[Dustydog]

Air Pollution to me was the fogs and smogs of London before the smokeless zones were brought in.
I read this in an article a while back. Is it true ?? I hope not 🙉

A 2021 study found that lithium concentration and production from brine can create about 11 tons of carbon dioxide per ton of lithium, while mining lithium from spodumene ore releases about 37 tons of CO2 per ton of lithium produced.12 Feb

 

[Tobes]

Air Pollution to me was the fogs and smogs of London before the smokeless zones were brought in.
I read this in an article a while back. Is it true ?? I hope not 🙉

A 2021 study found that lithium concentration and production from brine can create about 11 tons of carbon dioxide per ton of lithium, while mining lithium from spodumene ore releases about 37 tons of CO2 per ton of lithium produced.12 Feb

It may well be true, but I have not searched for a source.

If it is , then a 100kWh battery (a big battery, good for well over 300 miles of range), which contains about 63kg of lithium will be responsible for 2.3 tonnes of CO2.

1 litre of diesel when burned will produce 2.6kgs of CO2, so burning 884 litres of diesel will also generate 2.3 tonnes of CO2.
At 50mpg, that's enough diesel for just under 10,000 miles.

This does not include the CO2 costs of battery manufacture from the raw lithium, or the CO2 associated with charging the battery. But, it also does not include the CO2 associated with extracting the diesel, refining it and getting it to the pump (640g/l well to tank for diesel).

If you feel like exploring the data in some detail, I can recommend the Polestar Lifecycle assessment report for the Polestar 4. It has real figures on the environmental costs associated with both manufacture and use of the car.

https://www.polestar.com/dato-assets/11286/1699610322-polestar-4_lca_report_2023-11-08.pdf

 

[Dustydog]

Thanks Tobes . I’ll pass on that . I’m all maxed out trying to be green 😉

 

[Tobes]

Thanks Tobes . I’ll pass on that . I’m all maxed out trying to be green 😉

I understand. There is pressure from everywhere right now. I guess my point was, when looking at stats for pollutants of any form (or indeed stats of any kind), you need a yard stick against which to measure it and make sure it stays in context with your own thinking 11 Tonnes or 37 Tonnes of CO2 sounds enormous to get 1 Tonne of Lithium right? but one you put it into context of something else - its far less imposing.

It 37 tonnes of CO2 the same amount of CO2 as is generated by burning 5.5 barrels of oil.
In 2024 the world mined 300,000 tonnes of Lithium, and about 4.5 Billion tonnes of oil, of which about 60% was burned for fuel.

The lithium mining is noise compared to the pollution from oil.

Nothing needs to be done with this information, other than recognise that sometimes things that look "big", need context...

 

[otherclive]

I understand. There is pressure from everywhere right now. I guess my point was, when looking at stats for pollutants of any form (or indeed stats of any kind), you need a yard stick against which to measure it and make sure it stays in context with your own thinking 11 Tonnes or 37 Tonnes of CO2 sounds enormous to get 1 Tonne of Lithium right? but one you put it into context of something else - its far less imposing.

It 37 tonnes of CO2 the same amount of CO2 as is generated by burning 5.5 barrels of oil.
In 2024 the world mined 300,000 tonnes of Lithium, and about 4.5 Billion tonnes of oil, of which about 60% was burned for fuel.

The lithium mining is noise compared to the pollution from oil.

Nothing needs to be done with this information, other than recognise that sometimes things that look "big", need context...

37 tonnes of CO2 from burning 5.5 barrels of oil seems a lot. Is that correct?

“The average carbon dioxide coefficient of distillate fuel oil is 20.22 MMT C/QBtu, which converts to 431.87 kg CO2 per 42-gallon barrel (EPA 2024b). ”

 

[Tobes]

37 tonnes of CO2 from burning 5.5 barrels of oil seems a lot. Is that correct?

“The average carbon dioxide coefficient of distillate fuel oil is 20.22 MMT C/QBtu, which converts to 431.87 kg CO2 per 42-gallon barrel (EPA 2024b). ”

You are totally right - I messed up the maths here. I need to redo all my homework...

5.5 barrels or 884 of diesel at 2.6kg per L is 2.3 tonnes.
37 tonnes of CO2 is the equivalent of 14,200 litres of diesel.

I also drew a completely incorrect equivalence between crude oil and diesel.

Based on your figure, CO2 associated with 1 tonne of mined lithium is the same as that of 85.8 barrels of oil.

But this still remains true.
The lithium mining is noise compared to the pollution from oil.

 

[otherclive]

You are totally right - I messed up the maths here. I need to redo all my homework...

5.5 barrels or 884 of diesel at 2.6kg per L is 2.3 tonnes.
37 tonnes of CO2 is the equivalent of 14,200 litres of diesel.

I also drew a completely incorrect equivalence between crude oil and diesel.

Based on your figure, CO2 associated with 1 tonne of mined lithium is the same as that of 85.8 barrels of oil.

But this still remains true.
The lithium mining is noise compared to the pollution from oil.

Agree that so often the true environmental damage resulting from the usage of oil over its life cycle is too often not recognised. But despite oil companies walking back on their plans the time of peak oil is approaching.

 

[Buckman]

I think we should be drilling for more oil and gas to make the UK more self sufficient! It is the only way the UK will survive into the foreseeable future instead of all this green nonsense malarkey!

Nothing wrong with being green, but why do they force it on people creating misery all of the place as proved on this forum very recently.

 

[otherclive]

I think we should be drilling for more oil and gas to make the UK more self sufficient! It is the only way the UK will survive into the foreseeable future instead of all this green nonsense malarkey!

Nothing wrong with being green, but why do they force it on people creating misery all of the place as proved on this forum very recently.

Our oil and gas are sold by the companies on their global market. No one wants to answer the question on how we could become more self sufficient with our own suppliers. Government intervention in business decisions or even nationalisation? How exactly do we become more self sufficient in oil and gas ? Now wind, solar and renewables are ours to do with as we wish. Pity that electric prices are linked to oil price. When will we detach them?

 

[Tobes]

I think we should be drilling for more oil and gas to make the UK more self sufficient! It is the only way the UK will survive into the foreseeable future instead of all this green nonsense malarkey!

Nothing wrong with being green, but why do they force it on people creating misery all of the place as proved on this forum very recently.

I think we should be encouraging more solar and wind to make the UK more self sufficient! It is the only way the UK will survive into the foreseeable future instead of all this buying expensive finite resource with escalating prices at the prevailing global rate malarkey!

What misery was caused by forced green that was proven on this forum recently? I must have missed it.

 

[RogerL]

We need to get away from pricing ALL energy generation based on the most expensive, then the public would see the real benefit - IMO we need to be building more nuclear power stations, now, as they take so long to come on stream.

At the risk of getting too political, if/when we get peace in Ukraine we shouldn't resume taking Russian gas but take Canadian gas instead.

 

[Tobes]

We need to get away from pricing ALL energy generation based on the most expensive, then the public would see the real benefit - IMO we need to be building more nuclear power stations, now, as they take so long to come on stream.

At the risk of getting too political, if/when we get peace in Ukraine we shouldn't resume taking Russian gas but take Canadian gas instead.

Absolutely. We need reform in the UK energy market so that the actual cost of generation is reflected in retail price paid. You can (to a certain extent) "opt in" to such a model using tariffs like Octopus Agile, but its not a true reflection of the cost associated with electricity mix, just the cost associated with the last kWh produced.

I would also like to see reform that allows much better (legislative and economic) access to community generation such as wind far cooperatives, community solar and hydro. Today they attract all the burden of investments and pay out using normal commercial models, rather than directly impacting the energy costs of the members on the top line of their energy bill.

These would help to directly relate the value of generation to consumption and assist those home owners who cant have their own embedded micro generation.

I am on the fence about nuclear. I recognise it plays a part in providing low cost long term stable energy, but the lead in time and breathtaking startup costs make it almost too long term to be valuable in solving our current problems (IMHO). The UK is so well positioned to take advantage of wind (off and on shore), which has a relatively short deployment time, it seems to me investment there, with grid level flow batteries and increased embedded storage can make a large difference.

In terms of gas, I don't think the UK has ever been a large user of Russian gas (less that 4% in 2021). The vast majority has come from the north sea either from our own domestic production (at global market rate) or from Norway (at the same rate). However - I agree that we should not return to using that source at all, and ideally, replace that primary energy with domestic production (solar and wind).

 

[Buckman]

Now wind, solar and renewables are ours to do with as we wish. Pity that electric prices are linked to oil price. When will we detach them?

Hilarious. I seem to recall that not so long ago when we had cloudy days with no sunshine and also no wind they had to fire up fossil fuel generators to keep up with demand and doing so cost millions which will be passed onto the consumer.

 

[Tobes]

Hilarious. I seem to recall that not so long ago when we had cloudy days with no sunshine and also no wind they had to fire up fossil fuel generators to keep up with demand and doing so cost millions which will be passed onto the consumer.

Wait - would you rather that we turned off all wind and solar, and ran the fossil generators with their massive cost _all the time_? Why would you want to consistently pay more for energy? That makes literally no sense at all...

 

[Dustydog]

I think we should be drilling for more oil and gas to make the UK more self sufficient! It is the only way the UK will survive into the foreseeable future instead of all this green nonsense malarkey!

Nothing wrong with being green, but why do they force it on people creating misery all of the place as proved on this forum very recently.

Just catching up so haven’t read any of the latest posts.
I fully agree. BUT guess who owns most of the oil / gas fields in the North Sea? An Oslo listed company Equinor. 🤬

So they sell it on the international markets at the going rate. And we catch the cold.🤮
The fact is it is not beyond HMG to change the rules and allow the likes of BP and other U.K. listed companies to drill. That of course goes against the idiots net zero plan for 2030 which is looking a bit shaky at the moment. We shall see.

I do object having to pay a % of my bill for green energy. What a shame we didn’t follow the French and go nuclear!

On top of that Thames Water have increased our bill by 48%. Just waiting to see when the riot happens😉

 

[otherclive]

Just catching up so haven’t read any of the latest posts.
I fully agree. BUT guess who owns most of the oil / gas fields in the North Sea? An Oslo listed company Equinor. 🤬

So they sell it on the international markets at the going rate. And we catch the cold.🤮
The fact is it is not beyond HMG to change the rules and allow the likes of BP and other U.K. listed companies to drill. That of course goes against the idiots net zero plan for 2030 which is looking a bit shaky at the moment. We shall see.

I do object having to pay a % of my bill for green energy. What a shame we didn’t follow the French and go nuclear!

On top of that Thames Water have increased our bill by 48%. Just waiting to see when the riot happens😉

In actual fact HMG are looking at existing licence holders being able to drill in the vicinity of their current licence areas. The manifesto said no new licences. Plus we are short of refining capacity by a large degree and our refineries are old and not well aligned with current needs. It’s cheaper to buy our refined products from large modern overseas refineries.

 

[Buckman]

Wait - would you rather that we turned off all wind and solar, and ran the fossil generators with their massive cost _all the time_? Why would you want to consistently pay more for energy? That makes literally no sense at all...

Excellent idea and consign these wind and solar things to the rubbish tip as they are polluting the countryside. There is a huge cost involved with the installation of these eyesores so how is ti any different. Can you please suggest that you a certain gentleman who is obsessed with ruining people's lives?

Excuse me now as I need to go out and buy an old diesel 4x4 to use as a second car for our shopping trips into town.

 

[ProfJohnL]

We seem to lack a coordinated approach to energy in the UK, as usual successive governments have not taken a well balanced lead in formulating an ongoing energy policy.

The Governments have done what they always seem to do which is to announce the desired outcome, but to avoid setting out how to get there, effectively leaving it up to the ingenuity of the various sectors to invent solutions.

Whilst this might suit the market forces driven models, it doesn't really suit the consumers who are left with multiple often incompatible systems. Government occasionally might wait until a pack leader seems to arise, and then step in and adopt one solutions, rendering many of the alternative solutions obsolete.

One such narrow example is the UK BEV charging network diversity that is crying out for government intervention to set a requirement for simple CC or DC card payments rather than dependence on so many different apps.

The UK needs an energy policy that embraces diversity of sources. but also is mindful of the irresponsible use of sources that are finite and are diminishing never to be renewed within the era of human existence, despite the lobbying of the oil and related industries. moving towards responsible renewable energy sources that do not fuel accelerated climate change.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hilarious. I seem to recall that not so long ago when we had cloudy days with no sunshine and also no wind they had to fire up fossil fuel generators to keep up with demand and doing so cost millions which will be passed onto the consumer.

You seem to forget that on the days where solar and or wind power produces such cheap power, those savings have been passed on to even you. Without the renewable sources the population of the UK would have spent b£ more on the the energy we have used. There has been a net benefit overall to the whole of the UK.

 

[Tobes]

_snip_

One such narrow example is the UK BEV charging network diversity that is crying out for government intervention to set a requirement for simple CC or DC card payments rather than dependence on so many different apps.
_snip_

This is one place where change has been made. All new chargers above 8kW, and existing chargers above 50kW must have contactless payments available since Nov 2024.

 

[Tobes]

Excellent idea and consign these wind and solar things to the rubbish tip as they are polluting the countryside. There is a huge cost involved with the installation of these eyesores so how is ti any different. Can you please suggest that you a certain gentleman who is obsessed with ruining people's lives?

Excuse me now as I need to go out and buy an old diesel 4x4 to use as a second car for our shopping trips into town.

Second car for short runs into town? You should look at a small used EV. It could save you a bundle in VED, fuel, servicing and maintenance. Would suit you perfectly.

Here is a great example. Under £5k. Will do up to 100miles on a charge, will fully charge from a 13A domestic socket overnight. £0 VED up to 1st April, then £20 a year after that. Very efficient so will do 100 miles for about £2.50 when charged over night. Nice wide doors so easy to get in and out of, and surprisingly large rear for luggage, dogs, etc.

You are welcome

 

[otherclive]

Hilarious. I seem to recall that not so long ago when we had cloudy days with no sunshine and also no wind they had to fire up fossil fuel generators to keep up with demand and doing so cost millions which will be passed onto the consumer.

But that doesn’t negate the fact that wind, solar and renewables are our own national electricity resources. So if you look at Gridwatch over a 12 month period you will see how much energy those sources have actually provided.. it’s not insignificant and every giga watt provided means less usage of gas generation plants. Can that be a bad thing? The dysfunctional economics of our energy generation system are a complicating factor.

Here’s a good summary that shows gas consumption has been falling for generation of electricity , and renewables increasing. So even using gas for cloudy windless periods does not detract from the overall trend that the proportion of UK electric generation from renewables is increasing. When HPC comes on line the need for gas will further reduce.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/677bbf628ef66f3f5ea396d9/Energy_Trends_December_2024.pdf

 

[RogerL]

Second car for short runs into town? You should look at a small used EV. It could save you a bundle in VED, fuel, servicing and maintenance. Would suit you perfectly.

Here is a great example. Under £5k. Will do up to 100miles on a charge, will fully charge from a 13A domestic socket overnight. £0 VED up to 1st April, then £20 a year after that. Very efficient so will do 100 miles for about £2.50 when charged over night. Nice wide doors so easy to get in and out of, and surprisingly large rear for luggage, dogs, etc.

You are welcome

Insurance, breakdown cover and MoT need to be included - and can make a low mileage second car no cheaper to run than the main IC car - been there, got the T-shirt!