Air pollution?

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Mar 14, 2005
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I really do not understand this desire for carbon zero.🙀
......
NET zero carbon. Not, zero carbon. These are not the same thing.
As Tobes days as above,

As things stand at present the more fossil fuel we burn, the more carbon we release into the environment. there is a net increase compared to whatever measures we have used to offset it or even remove it. The target of Net zero, simply means we remove the same amount of carbon that we add.
 
Jul 23, 2021
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Not sure how it can have lower running costs if you take into account the extra you pay for the new EV above the cost of the equivalent new ICE car plus of course the cost of the bollard?

Lastly having been wandering around dealer forecourt it was surprising the number of second hand low mileage EVs up for sale and they were mostly priced much lower than the ICE equivalent. Some of these EVs were not even a year old.
So pay extra for a new EV or second hand EV priced much lower than the ICE equivalent? Which is it? You are suggesting they are both more expensive and cheaper at the same time!

Buy the used one! Grab a bargain, AND low cost running into the deal!

What is the point in buying a PHEV or EV if you can only use a normal 13amp plug to recharge it at £0.45ppkw? Where we live we cannot drape cables across the pavement whether the car is parked at the front or the back of the home and I guess many people are in a similar predicament.

You dont need a dedicated charger to access low cost charging. Any EV and any charger (including a 13A plug) can have access to Octopus Go! For 5 hours of electricity at 7.5p / kWh over night. It applys to the whole house, so you could even run your air source heat pump to heat the water in that window, saving more money.

Of course - if you dont have a way to use a charger (no suitable off road parking) then thats a problem. It may be possible to over come, or it may not. Depends on the local situation, and if thats the case for you - fair enough.
I suspect that they were registered by the dealership to make EV sales look good and to avoid that totally ridiculous and silly £15000 fine?
Maybe they have. In which case there is a deal to be done :)
 
Jul 18, 2017
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So pay extra for a new EV or second hand EV priced much lower than the ICE equivalent? Which is it? You are suggesting they are both more expensive and cheaper at the same time!

Buy the used one! Grab a bargain, AND low cost running into the deal!



You dont need a dedicated charger to access low cost charging. Any EV and any charger (including a 13A plug) can have access to Octopus Go! For 5 hours of electricity at 7.5p / kWh over night. It applys to the whole house, so you could even run your air source heat pump to heat the water in that window, saving more money.

Of course - if you dont have a way to use a charger (no suitable off road parking) then thats a problem. It may be possible to over come, or it may not. Depends on the local situation, and if thats the case for you - fair enough.

Maybe they have. In which case there is a deal to be done :)
Hilarious me buying some piece of junk that is going to be obsolete in the near future, but in the meantime is ruining thousands of lives. It does seem you have a an issue grasping the point I was trying to get across. Maybe if you removed your rose tinted specs it may help? :LOL:
 
Jul 23, 2021
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Hilarious me buying some piece of junk that is going to be obsolete in the near future, but in the meantime is ruining thousands of lives. It does seem you have a an issue grasping the point I was trying to get across. Maybe if you removed your rose tinted specs it may help? :LOL:
You are of course referring to the combustion engine, which is being phased out from 2030, which has escalating fuel costs, and is ruining millions of lives (not thousands) as the CO2 it produces continues to contribute to climate change resulting in extreme weather events and the flooding of low laying lands though sea level change, right? What more reason could you want to buy an EV, with lower life time emissions, lower fuel costs that will continue to fall as we remove fossil fuels from our grid, and reduces the impact of extraction and use of oil around the globe. :). Sounds like a win win. Glad you are considering it with an open mind! ;):LOL::)(y)
 
Jul 18, 2017
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You are of course referring to the combustion engine, which is being phased out from 2030, which has escalating fuel costs, and is ruining millions of lives (not thousands) as the CO2 it produces continues to contribute to climate change resulting in extreme weather events and the flooding of low laying lands though sea level change, right? What more reason could you want to buy an EV, with lower life time emissions, lower fuel costs that will continue to fall as we remove fossil fuels from our grid, and reduces the impact of extraction and use of oil around the globe. :). Sounds like a win win. Glad you are considering it with an open mind! ;):LOL::)(y)
As said you need new rose tinted specs or a better understanding of what was written. Where are these millions of people being ruined by ICE vehicles? Climate change has been happening for thousands or millions of years and is just another term for governments to use to increase taxes and ruin more lives. As for sea level change, surely even you know that is a total joke? What could possibly cause the sea level to rise?

Anyway I am happy with the dirty diesel we bought and may it live long to continue polluting the same or probably less than EVs.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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My point about percentages remains, nobody so far can tell me by what percentagr we have reduced our emissions by going wind, solar electric cars etc, the fact that our emissions were 0.81% in 2023 does not mean they reduced to that figure because of our investment in 'clean' energy production, if other countries have increased their percentage, by developing fossil fuel production , it is inevitable that our percentage will go down regardless
 
Jun 20, 2005
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As Tobes days as above,

As things stand at present the more fossil fuel we burn, the more carbon we release into the environment. there is a net increase compared to whatever measures we have used to offset it or even remove it. The target of Net zero, simply means we remove the same amount of carbon that we add.
I get that Prof but as you well know where or what is the “ bench mark/ control “ to decide the parameters?. The fact we all breathe must come into it?
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Boom, boom! Any sleeping volcanoes in Iceland? :LOL:
They have both types
As said you need new rose tinted specs or a better understanding of what was written. Where are these millions of people being ruined by ICE vehicles? Climate change has been happening for thousands or millions of years and is just another term for governments to use to increase taxes and ruin more lives. As for sea level change, surely even you know that is a total joke? What could possibly cause the sea level to rise?

Anyway I am happy with the dirty diesel we bought and may it live long to continue polluting the same or probably less than EVs.
Agreed that the climate has been changing, colder or warmer under natural changes, since time immemorial. If you look at the rise of carbon dioxide there are numerous referenced sources that clearly show the rate of increase per year has increased at a much faster rate than at any previous time. This rapid percentage increase links back very clearly to the start of the Industrial Revolution, and is man made. The link below from The Royal Society explains it very well.


 
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Mar 14, 2005
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I get that Prof but as you well know where or what is the “ bench mark/ control “ to decide the parameters?. The fact we all breathe must come into it?
Breathing does not come into it, as that is not an industrial function.

But the way net zero would be judged is essentially based on the quantity and type of energy source that has to be used to perform a task such as making a product, or carrying out a task , such as running an engine. There are tables (not necessarily very accurate) which allow the quantity of energy used to equate to a a quantity of carbon that the activity will release into the environment.

So the likes of Hydro, Solar and Wind generation apart from the carbon load of the creation of the generating system, don't release any Carbon into the environment, Bio mass does release carbon, but it is mostly reinterred when the replacement crop is grown, so it is essential a net zero process,

Its the burning of fossil fuels where there is no cyclic process to capture and reinter the carbon back under ground that's where net zero does not work.

Unfortunately the net zero concept has been skewed by big business. There are schemes where land owners are busy plating forests and other natural carbon collecting vegetation (which is not in its self a bad thing) to create a tradeable carbon credit, where businesses that don't get to net zero, can buy the credits to offset their carbon releases.

I would like government to restrict the use of carbon credits to force industries to work harder to get towards net zero by them selves.
 
Jun 20, 2005
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Thankyou Prof.
Strange some politicians are calling for scrapping our farm animals because of methane 🙀
These figures from last year tell a pretty poor story about Coal fired power stations
Doesn’t bode well for Germany. Some may say we should boycott German products? But I like my VW😉
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Thankyou Prof.
Strange some politicians are calling for scrapping our farm animals because of methane 🙀
These figures from last year tell a pretty poor story about Coal fired power stations
Doesn’t bode well for Germany. Some may say we should boycott German products? But I like my VW😉
I think there’s a view in Germany that the government over reacted to the Fukushima nuclear incident by premature closing of the German nuclear plants. This was exacerbated by the Russian invasion of Ukraine. But Germany has made large strides to install renewable generation sources, with much more planned.
 
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Mar 14, 2005
18,511
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Thankyou Prof.
Strange some politicians are calling for scrapping our farm animals because of methane 🙀
These figures from last year tell a pretty poor story about Coal fired power stations
Doesn’t bode well for Germany. Some may say we should boycott German products? But I like my VW😉
Just looking at one factor such as the coal fired power stations can give a misleading impression. Whilst China has a poor record of burning fossil fuels, it needs power generation NOW to meet its electrical demands. Many of its plants are short term projects.

China is also the world leader in creating renewable energy supplies, I cant remember the exact figures but China has installed more solar panels in the last few years than the rest of the world put together.. So much so that it is predicted to soon beginning to close it some of its CF generations plants as the renewable take on more load.
 
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Jul 18, 2017
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I would like government to restrict the use of carbon credits to force industries to work harder to get towards net zero by them selves.
Many people would like the whole idea scrapped as it is causing the country a lot of hardship and loss of productivity.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/03/net-zero-crashed-car-industry-property-market-next/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/06/net-zero-strangling-economy-proof/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...ubstantial-change-policy-electric-car-nissan/

There are also many other articles by respected economists saying the same thing as the above articles. This net zero is dooming the UK to the rubbish bin and making the UK a laughing stock as it seems UK politicians cannot understand economics!
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Many people would like the whole idea scrapped as it is causing the country a lot of hardship and loss of productivity.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/03/net-zero-crashed-car-industry-property-market-next/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2025/03/06/net-zero-strangling-economy-proof/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...ubstantial-change-policy-electric-car-nissan/

There are also many other articles by respected economists saying the same thing as the above articles. This net zero is dooming the UK to the rubbish bin and making the UK a laughing stock as it seems UK politicians cannot understand economics!
That’s an “even” spread of references in your post 😂😂😂

Britains productivity has been woeful for years before nett zero etc got mentioned.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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That’s an “even” spread of references in your post 😂😂😂

Britains productivity has been woeful for years before nett zero etc got mentioned.
Sadly even a simpleton can see where the UK is heading with this net zero nonsense and that is to the bottom of the bucket to join other third world countries. .
 
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Oct 11, 2023
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Bit late to the party, in June 2020 we had our first PHEV we charged up off peak at night at 5 pence kWH our running cost dropped dramatically, the majority of the time we ran in EV mode.

In March 2022 we decided to go one step further and add 4.4kWh solar array, in October 2022 we added a battery, we now have achieved zero electric cost and 100% clean electric energy, we charge up both the car and battery at night off peak.

The only time we put fuel in the car is to tow the caravan, I totally except we all have different views on climate change, but surely we are all guilty and need to do something at least for our grandchildren.
 
Jun 20, 2005
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We all strive to be clean and indeed most support the concept with out complaint. But when the tail wags the dog and we lose sense of reality and start heading for a car crash perhaps it’s time for a reappraisal.
Stanford University recently looked into the costs of burying CO2.
Can we afford this cost and how can most of us afford to pay for it?

I recall during Lockdown we were told there was a world shortage of CO2 causing severe shortages in the food chain. 🙀


With this system, Benson and Deutch estimate it would cost the government about $25 per ton of carbon dioxide captured. If 30 projects earned that amount for a decade apiece, the program would trap 264 million tons of CO2, and government spending on the experiment would total $6.6 billion.
 
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Jul 18, 2017
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Our son, our daughter and grandsons do not drive EVs, PHEVs or Hybrids because they are too expensive to buy and they have nowhere to charge them anyway. All their cars are over 10 years old, but only one of them has a 3 litre diesel out of necessity and it is not used for towing.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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We all strive to be clean and indeed most support the concept with our complaint. But when the tail wags the dog and we lose sense of reality and start heading for a car crash perhaps it’s time for a reappraisal.
Stanford University recently looked into the costs of burying CO2.
Can we afford this cost and how can most of us afford to pay for it?

I recall during Lockdown we were told there was a world shortage of CO2 causing severe shortages in the food chain. 🙀


With this system, Benson and Deutch estimate it would cost the government about $25 per ton of carbon dioxide captured. If 30 projects earned that amount for a decade apiece, the program would trap 264 million tons of CO2, and government spending on the experiment would total $6.6 billion.
That’s an excellent reason to push for major reductions in carbon dioxide production rather than some interim approach. Somewhat like the dilemma of plastic. Great to use recycled plastic, but much better to reduce use of plastic in the first place. Benefits are reduced energy consumption in the first place and less pollutant to the land and seas.
 
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Nov 11, 2009
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Bit late to the party, in June 2020 we had our first PHEV we charged up off peak at night at 5 pence kWH our running cost dropped dramatically, the majority of the time we ran in EV mode.

In March 2022 we decided to go one step further and add 4.4kWh solar array, in October 2022 we added a battery, we now have achieved zero electric cost and 100% clean electric energy, we charge up both the car and battery at night off peak.

The only time we put fuel in the car is to tow the caravan, I totally except we all have different views on climate change, but surely we are all guilty and need to do something at least for our grandchildren.
Three neighbours on our small development have PHEV. They are all retired and only use an external 240v supply and lead, not an installed dedicated charging point. Talking to them their normal daily drives are well catered for by overnight “slow “ charging and were quite happy to use more expensive commercial charging points if on longer journeys. Our grandson let his lease Tesla go last summer and they have relied on their 68 reg 5 series PHEV saloon with occasional use of our runabout when required, which actually isn’t that often. He told me this weekend that the BMW is going and his company have agreed a EV lease car via Octopus. But he’s keeping us guessing on what make he’s going for.
 
Jun 20, 2005
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That’s an excellent reason to push for major reductions in carbon dioxide production rather than some interim approach. Somewhat like the dilemma of plastic. Great to use recycled plastic, but much better to reduce use of plastic in the first place. Benefits are reduced energy consumption in the first place and less pollutant to the land and seas.
Fully agree. I believe a more sensible structured and achievable method should be adopted . Not the current Draconian system that is going to bankrupt us and the Country.
 
Mar 14, 2005
18,511
3,802
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We all strive to be clean and indeed most support the concept with out complaint. But when the tail wags the dog and we lose sense of reality and start heading for a car crash perhaps it’s time for a reappraisal.
Stanford University recently looked into the costs of burying CO2.
Can we afford this cost and how can most of us afford to pay for it?

I recall during Lockdown we were told there was a world shortage of CO2 causing severe shortages in the food chain. 🙀


With this system, Benson and Deutch estimate it would cost the government about $25 per ton of carbon dioxide captured. If 30 projects earned that amount for a decade apiece, the program would trap 264 million tons of CO2, and government spending on the experiment would total $6.6 billion.
As OC has suggested, the problem is the unnecessary release of CO2, rather than the capture and securing of it.

Before the dawn of the industrial revolution, most repetitive industrial site were mills, and traditionally they had without realising it been utilising "green" technology by harnessing the power of gravity working on water in water mills or windmills. These were net zero enterprises.

We had an eco system that was essentially balanced. CO2 released was derived from annually grown vegetation which would be re absorbed as part of the natural growing processes over the next year or two.

Only when natural resources could not meet the demands for mechanical energy, such as using animals (or humans) on tread mills, this is when we began to tip the scales, and produce net carbon emissions. Some of this excess CO2 would be captured by the more verdant vegetation that was grow in the manure from these animals, but not quite all.

The ecosystem had enough flexibility to accommodate the extra CO2 our activities generated. But importantly the degree of C2 flexibility had started to be used up.

As the industrial revolution ramped up so did the need for more energy for either mechanical work or heating. This caused coal to become very popular, but its popularity also ramped up up CO2 emissions which were derived from fossilised sources, which only added to the amount CO2 in the normal environment. These excess amounts are the ones that have caused CO2 levels to rise, and accelerate its effects on the environment.

As the 18th century passed, not only were we using vast amounts of coal, but also the petrochemical industry also developed and exploited energy rich sources to meet demands for energy, but unwittingly at the time they hadn't understood the effect of ramping up fossil fuel burning and its effects on the eco system, and the systems flexibility for dealing a natural blimps such as volcano and tsunamis etc, has been used up and now in the 21st century virtually all fossil fuel burning is directly impairing the natures ability to deal with the CO2 and other pollutants humans are pumping into the environment.

We have become so dependant on easy energy, that there is massive inertia towards changing our dependency and moving back to renewables to reduce the pressure cooker effect on the environment.

It is far easier to prevent the release of excess CO2 and other pollutants by reducing our use of these precious and depleted resources by not using them and finding renewable alternatives, than it is to try to collect the waste matter after its been burnt.

I believe it is estimated that 70% or more of all energy used is for space heating. By using better insulation in buildings we could reduce this vast amount of energy from being wasted.

Most transport burns fossil fuels to produce tractive force. Unfortunately there is no process that burns fuel to produce tractive force that is better than 50% efficient, and typically most diesels can only achieve 35% and petrol about 30% meaning we are wasting about 65 to 705 of all the fossil fuel we use in vehicles.

It surely makes both environmental and cost sense to stop burning fossil fuels and to move to renewables where possible.

There is a cost to setting up renewables, but its a fraction of the lifetime costs of exploiting fossil fuels, and then there is the benefit to the eco system.
 
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Jun 20, 2005
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Well up to your usual eloquent informative standard Prof. Thank you.👏

Sadly the desire to achieving Zero emission vehicles by 2030 is proving economically problematic.

I only read yesterday the Nissan Plant at Sunderland is considered under threat because of the financial levies/ fines placed upon them by HMG. Our own Business Secretary has just returned from Nissan Tokyo.

We await what the outcome of that visit and Sunderland will be later this week.
 

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