Cycle rack for car

[Buckman]

There are however bike racks that fit on towbars, rather than the "hitch" or towball.
Whilst there is considerably more complication and sometimes no viable solution to some "swan neck" hooks, where the two bolt flange tow hook is used, there are some easily adoptable solutions.

One "Example" plucked at random from the internet. I would expect "pre-loved" racks of this "ilk", could be sourced from the likes of e-bay as flanged towbars are not as widely used today.

Edit: As a onetime user of vehicle rear mounted cycle carrier, when towing be very conscious when reversing the unit, they can reduce the "jack knifing" angle.

Never realised they also existed and they would be easier to use however wouldn't they cover the number plate requiring one to display the number plate on the outside of the bikes on the rear?

We would also require a cable to secure the bikes to the caravan when away and not using the bikes or at night. The site we normally use is very secure, but you never know. Both bikes are extremely expensive as they are used in competitions i.e. marathons.

 

[JTQ]

Never realised they also existed and they would be easier to use however wouldn't they cover the number plate requiring one to display the number plate on the outside of the bikes on the rear?

We would also require a cable to secure the bikes to the caravan when away and not using the bikes or at night. The site we normally use is very secure, but you never know. Both bikes are extremely expensive as they are used in competitions i.e. marathons.

Well, we towed extensively throughout the UK, and also into France, Spain, Germany & Austria, with two bikes on our rear rack, and never had anyone, law or otherwise raise that whilst towing the bikes covered a clear view of the towing vehicle's registration plate. They probably like me took the caravan to be an expensive "Lighting Board"; I have not a clue if any country we visited required, when towing our vehicle's rear registration plate has itself to be visible, most I assume realise the caravan might inhibit that.

I did carry a "Lighting Board" for when running solo, and that I carried mounted as normal on the bikes, it's just that whilst towing I plugged the caravan into the vehicle's electrics.

An issue I was aware of is in some places of the bike's wheel sticking out beyond the vehicle's width, running solo, this I addressed by then tilting them off horizontal, or did not bother depending more where we were and how long a drive was involved. Basically, I took a pretty laidback approach, just as most of the locals were.

Bike security anywhere is an issue; I tended to put our bikes into the back off our 110 on site overnight, as whilst overnight on site the vehicle had no passengers or kit filling the space. Like your grandson's our bikes were, in their day, of considerable value, so sensible security care was always addressed.

 

[ProfJohnL]

There are however bike racks that fit on towbars, rather than the "hitch" or towball.
Whilst there is considerably more complication and sometimes no viable solution to some "swan neck" hooks, where the two bolt flange tow hook is used, there are some easily adoptable solutions.

One "Example" plucked at random from the internet. I would expect "pre-loved" racks of this "ilk", could be sourced from the likes of e-bay as flanged towbars are not as widely used today.

Edit: As a onetime user of vehicle rear mounted cycle carrier, when towing be very conscious when reversing the unit, they can reduce the "jack knifing" angle.

Even when this is true, the same trade off of bike and carrier weight against the cars S value would apply, as the S vale related to the tow bar not just the hitch or ball

 

[JTQ]

Even when this is true, the same trade off of bike and carrier weight against the cars S value would apply, as the S vale related to the tow bar not just the hitch or ball

Of course;
Here in post #20 we were told by the OP data indicating they had a 30kg reserve;-

"The tow bar is rated for 180kg and the maximum nose weight of the caravan is 150kg" .

We were also told the cycles were for competative use so what, the MTB about 12 kgs the road bike sub 9 kgs, leaving 9 kgs for the rack, IMO it is a doable solution here.

If genuine Jeep kit, if it is the case, the bar, along with the vehicle sub frame structure is possibly rated way higher than the quoted 180 kgs, just the European hook for our market limited to the 180kg. Data likely to be easily checked on the internet if the kit used here is identified.

 

[Buckman]

One "Example" plucked at random from the internet. I would expect "pre-loved" racks of this "ilk", could be sourced from the likes of e-bay as flanged towbars are not as widely used today.

Sadly those are out of stock at present and cannot find similar, but could be using the wrong search parameters?

 

[JTQ]

Sadly those are out of stock at present and cannot find similar, but could be using the wrong search parameters?

Similar if you are quick, but could be too far away and seller not prepared to post it at cost. There is at least another there, as I said something likely to be quite available as "pre loved".
This is not any statement it meets all your needs but could be a contender subject to a prompt think about it knowing what you have

 

[RogerL]

Of course;
Here in post #20 we were told by the OP data indicating they had a 30kg reserve;-

"The tow bar is rated for 180kg and the maximum nose weight of the caravan is 150kg" .

We were also told the cycles were for competative use so what, the MTB about 12 kgs the road bike sub 9 kgs, leaving 9 kgs for the rack, IMO it is a doable solution here.

If genuine Jeep kit, if it is the case, the bar, along with the vehicle sub frame structure is possibly rated way higher than the quoted 180 kgs, just the European hook for our market limited to the 180kg. Data likely to be easily checked on the internet if the kit used here is identified.

Differences in maximum noseweight between apparently identical models sold in different markets can be due to a number of factors and can't be used to exceed the quoted UK limits.

My VW Touareg has a 140kg noseweight limit alongside the 3,500kg towing limit - in USA, Canada and Australia the apparently identical model has a 280kg tongueweight limit (same as noseweight) and the same 3,500kg towing limit - indeed an earlier version has a 350kg limit over there - but in those markets, users have to be very careful not to exceed the rear axle limit due to the leverage effect

 

[Dustydog]

Differences in maximum noseweight between apparently identical models sold in different markets can be due to a number of factors and can't be used to exceed the quoted UK limits.

My VW Touareg has a 140kg noseweight limit alongside the 3,500kg towing limit - in USA, Canada and Australia the apparently identical model has a 280kg tongueweight limit (same as noseweight) and the same 3,500kg towing limit - indeed an earlier version has a 350kg limit over there - but in those markets, users have to be very careful not to exceed the rear axle limit due to the leverage effect

My only reservation is I’d want proof the U.K. fitted towbar has the same weight loading as the USA. The VW beam removed when my Westfalia was fitted was massive so maybe the USA fit heavier duty towbars??

 

[JTQ]

Differences in maximum noseweight between apparently identical models sold in different markets can be due to a number of factors and can't be used to exceed the quoted UK limits.

Confidence inspiring however if the identical kit is rated at way over the UK value, "over the pond" & "down under", that working it here right on our level, it probably is safe! As here, it looks likely to be the case.

 

[RogerL]

Confidence inspiring however if the identical kit is rated at way over the UK value, "over the pond" & "down under", that working it here right on our level, it probably is safe! As here, it looks likely to be the case.

No it doesn't - a totally different, locally made towbar is used in USA, Canada and Australia using a 2" receiver rather than a 50mm ball - this includes a revised cross-member which replaces the non-towing cross-member.

I personally find it frustrating as I subscribe to the "more noseweight is better" theory as the restriction on most UK caravan hitches of 100kg means I can't even take advange of my 140kg limit for the Touareg.

 

[JTQ]

No it doesn't - a totally different, locally made towbar is used in USA, Canada and Australia using a 2" receiver rather than a 50mm ball - this includes a revised cross-member which replaces the non-towing cross-member.

I am aware differing hooks, towballs and other couplings are fitted outside Europe, but here I stated:- ."if the identical kit ".
Examples can be the relevant vehicle structure & towbars.

 

[ProfJohnL]

To clarify my later postings were not specifically about Buckman's situation but about the logic and factors that anyone who was contemplating a hitch mounted bicycle carrier should be aware.

Exactly the same calculation is required for Buckman as anyone else, but in his case and assuming his S value is 180kg then it should not be an issue for him, but for most cars the S value is far less generous and it would compromise the available nose load capacity for a caravan when used together.

I have seen several caravanners with this type of carrier and towing a caravan, and it's a concern they may be exceeding the safe working capacity of their tow bar.

 

[otherclive]

It’s a quite common sight in Europe to see continental caravans with their extended A frames that have a couple of bikes carried across the A frame. It’s not restricted to large SUVs with a high 140-180 kg limit, as you see it being used on normal family sized car towing a van that is likely to be heavier than its UK equivalent. Yet you don’t see crashed outfits scattered all over the autoroutes/autobahns. What do European caravanners do that’s different to us?

 

[RogerL]

It’s a quite common sight in Europe to see continental caravans with their extended A frames that have a couple of bikes carried across the A frame. It’s not restricted to large SUVs with a high 140-180 kg limit, as you see it being used on normal family sized car towing a van that is likely to be heavier than its UK equivalent. Yet you don’t see crashed outfits scattered all over the autoroutes/autobahns. What do European caravanners do that’s different to us?

What do European caravanners do that’s different to us? They buy European-designed caravans!

This forum has a fair number of complaints that UK-designed caravans have noseweights which are too high, making it virtually impossible to position significant loads at the front - which comes down to poor design.

 

[ProfJohnL]

What do European caravanners do that’s different to us? They buy European-designed caravans!

This forum has a fair number of complaints that UK-designed caravans have noseweights which are too high, making it virtually impossible to position significant loads at the front - which comes down to poor design.

A number of European caravans seem to have longer A frames, which will greatly assist with twh towing characteristics of a caravan, and may get away with lower nose loads.

 

[Buckman]

A number of European caravans seem to have longer A frames, which will greatly assist with twh towing characteristics of a caravan, and may get away with lower nose loads.

I am not sure why UK caravan manufacturers stick to the shorter A frames when the longer A frame probably gives more stability? The Buccaneer has a internal body length of 6.39m, exterior body length of 6.98m and a shipping length of 8.16m which seems to indicate a marginally longer A frame than many caravans.

I personally find it frustrating as I subscribe to the "more noseweight is better" theory as the restriction on most UK caravan hitches of 100kg means I can't even take advantage of my 140kg limit for the Touareg.

Manufacturers themselves recommend a nose weight of between 5-7% of the MTPLM, but then fit a hitch that is limited to 100kg. Ours is the 3004.ALKO hitch as they are rated for 150kg.

Maybe upgrade to the 3004 to take advantage of the 150kg nose weight for safer towing. It seems that the 3004 is the only stabiliser stocked by ALKO so maybe all newer caravans are fitted with the 3004?

 

[JTQ]

Maybe upgrade to the 3004 to take advantage of the 150kg nose weight for safer towing. It seems that the 3004 is the only stabiliser stocked by ALKO so maybe all newer caravans are fitted with the 3004?

Our Hymer 2007/8 has the 150 kg coupling, but still the chassis I know has just a 100 kg "S" rating.
So fitting the heavier duty couplings which in our case was driven by the MTPLM does not automatically grant the nose weight ability of the coupling to be exploited.
Data is there on the weight plate, but it needs any purchaser to look and know what it means.

We have this lovely long "A" frame, makes a good camping coffee table, but anyone doing the maths will quickly realise it is not viable for a bike rack, though clearly many can't do their sums!

 

[RogerL]

I am not sure why UK caravan manufacturers stick to the shorter A frames when the longer A frame probably gives more stability? The Buccaneer has a internal body length of 6.39m, exterior body length of 6.98m and a shipping length of 8.16m which seems to indicate a marginally longer A frame than many caravans.



Manufacturers themselves recommend a nose weight of between 5-7% of the MTPLM, but then fit a hitch that is limited to 100kg. Ours is the 3004.ALKO hitch as they are rated for 150kg.

Maybe upgrade to the 3004 to take advantage of the 150kg nose weight for safer towing. It seems that the 3004 is the only stabiliser stocked by ALKO so maybe all newer caravans are fitted with the 3004?

I suspect it's historical to reduce shipping length as all foreign travel from the UK involves a Channel crossing whereas continental caravanners can visit many countries without using a ferry.

Is it chicken and egg? If UK makers impose a 100kg hitch limit they can't recommend higher than 5-7%

The hitch itself isn't the only limitation, the A-frame has a limit as well - plenty of UK caravans with a 100kg limit are fitted with the Alko 3004 hitch.

If the statutory plate specifies 100 kg as the limit for Axle 0, the owner can't alter it by fitment of other parts.

 

[Buckman]

I suspect it's historical to reduce shipping length as all foreign travel from the UK involves a Channel crossing whereas continental caravanners can visit many countries without using a ferry.

Is it chicken and egg? If UK makers impose a 100kg hitch limit they can't recommend higher than 5-7%

The hitch itself isn't the only limitation, the A-frame has a limit as well - plenty of UK caravans with a 100kg limit are fitted with the Alko 3004 hitch.

If the statutory plate specifies 100 kg as the limit for Axle 0, the owner can't alter it by fitment of other parts.

I don't think there is any legislation regarding A frames, but happy to be corrected. I would think that our Buccaneer chassis is probably the same as the chassis on many other brands where MTPLM is the same, but for some reason you are restricted to 100kg? Seems silly to have a hitch fitted that is capable of 150kg, but the support can only handle 100kg?

 

[Sam Vimes]

Like any chain they're only as strong as the weakest link so it terms of nose weight it needs to be determined what element has the lowest rating.

I'm not sure of the basis for the figure of 5-7% of MTPLM but since you can get a caravan uprated which is just a piece of paper and a label - no mechanical changes - this can imply the nose weight would also be uprated.

Weakest link still needs to be considered though.

 

[JTQ]

Seems silly to have a hitch fitted that is capable of 150kg, but the support can only handle 100kg?

Unless it is used as with our Hymer because of the MTPLM 1900 kgs was above the rating of the lighter duty coupling. The coupling is used to both handle the van's mass and bear the nose weight.

Uprating to a heavier duty chassis where otherwise it is unnecessary, to accept simply using a higher "S" nose weight, would add both weight and cost, both negatives. Viewed in an engineering and sales potential light, it is far from being "silly".

 

[ProfJohnL]

The way caravan chassis is purchased by the caravan manufacturer is as a kits of preferred capacity of parts from a range parts. Depending on the designed weight of the caravan, the preferred chassis members have to be able to safely support the designed weight, so logically the kit of parts will be chosen to match or just exceed the designed weight. Similarly the coupling hitch will the nearest prefered values to match or he next size up to take the loads of the caravan.

As Sam and JTQ correctly point out, the permitted load applied to a chassis has to be limited by the weakest link,

 

[Dustydog]

That worries me Prof. “so logically the kit of parts will be chosen to match or just exceed the designed weight.”
Rightly or wrongly I always thought all engineered products had a safety factor of ?% above the quoted user rating.
Are our caravans that close in engineering terms to the use we put them to? Apologies for asking as I appreciate you may not know but I had hoped there was a safety factor of say 20%? I’d be worried if my aeroplane was on the edge.

 

[RogerL]

That worries me Prof. “so logically the kit of parts will be chosen to match or just exceed the designed weight.”
Rightly or wrongly I always thought all engineered products had a safety factor of ?% above the quoted user rating.
Are our caravans that close in engineering terms to the use we put them to? Apologies for asking as I appreciate you may not know but I had hoped there was a safety factor of say 20%? I’d be worried if my aeroplane was on the edge.

The safety factor is included in the component makers' specification, the caravan maker doesn't need to add an extra safety factor.