Damp in a van les than one year old

[Neil_374240133]

Hi there,

We took delivery of our new van last February. At the first service this month we were advised that it had a 30% damp reading in the shower room. We were both devastated. Dealers have repaired the van now but I don't want it back. they have written off the service Charge (£180 plus vat)and are delivering it to us FOC.

Any one care to comment. The manufacturer is in my opinion not interested and the dealer has washed their hands of it stating that it is fit for purpose. Hense the 6 year water ingress warranty. They have been appologetic and tried to allay my fears but, my confidence in them and the brand has been lost as it has with the van. It won't be the same now.

Any comments people

Neil

 

[CarolineSimon]

Hi Neil,

That sounds dreadful, no wonder you have lost all faith in your van and its manufacturer.

I don't know if it would help but have you thought about contacting your local trading standards people as surely a shower room that is not waterproof is not fit for purpose? and makes a mockery of their water ingress warrenty.

Perhaps the Caravan council could offer some suggestions as well?

More & more people seem to be getting problems with new or nearly new British made vans which is such a shame as it will force us to buy European eventually.

We have just done that & ordered a UK spec Burstner, mainly due to the higher build quality.

Good luck with whatever you decide, please keep us all informed as I am sure other people will find it very useful if they are in a similar position.

Caroline

 

[cris_408518]

Parting with fairly large sum of cash and investing in a pastime purchase that you probably intend to utilise for some years must be a blow when there is a problem.

Plenty of people invest far more money in cars that have problems, as annoying as a fault is if it has been corrected I doubt that you have much room to complain.

No doubt many of the same model caravan and other similar ones have come off the production line, unless the others have the same problems you can't say they the van is not fit for purpose.

If a car has a starter motor failure or a window leak you can't

claim the parts are not fit for purpose if many others are fine.

In this day and age a manufacturer would be rather at risk cost wise to offer a six year water ingress guarantee just to cover poor workmanship and have a production lines worth of caravans coming back every year for remedial repairs!

I think we know what brand van you are talking about, and if correct our personal experience is one of fine build and quality and that is supported by many others we know and also by the caravan business with trade in and sales prices on used vans.

As annoying as the problem is, "get a grip" check out others experinces with the same model and age van. The best you might get is a top price trade in from your dealer if you can't live with having had a problem.

If you are just going off on one with the dealer and they have been fair with dealing with the repair and the van has been returned in fine fettle I think you will not be helping your case.

 

[Neil_374240133]

Lets take your rather candid response one step at a time. You talk about starter motors and window leaks in a car. In a caravan this would be likened to a fridge or an oven. Once repaired all is well. Annoying I admit but all is ok. The point you are missing is this: the structure and strength of the caravan body relies on the structural strength and integrity of the caravan body, not with its many components that make it whole. The caravan can perform without its fridge and oven but if it has a structural defect, caused by damp ingress over time, the unit itself fails. There is therefore no need for a fridge or an oven.

I agree its great that we get these 6 year warranties etc. But if it fails within the first year, for whatever the reason, there is surly something wrong somewhere. We were advised last week we are not the only ones with the same problem. They guy at the dealer stated that we were one of three to have the same fault. The other two were to be returned to the maker. Speaking of which I have not mentioned the maker so please do not assume you know who I am referring. But lets get back to the 6-year warranty and please forgive me for being cynical. To comply with the warranty what do we have to do, oh yes, we have to have a service carried out on the van and it must be at the dealers. Not necessarily the one you brought it from but try and get warranty work done from a branded agent when you purchased your van 60 miles up the road. They are just not interested (in my experience). So we fork out on expensive servicing etc when the local guy we used for years is left out in the cold (and damp).

You talk about getting a grip. We are ordinary people, like most we both work,, we have a mortgage like a lot of folk, I am expected to perform to my best ability in my role, which is quite challenging at times. I also expect a lot for my money. In this case I feel very let down by both dealer and maker and you bet I'm angry. I bought a defective product when I paid for a first class one. Or is the maker of the brand you think I refer a 2nd rate one? Only you know that? I am open to hear of other people's experiences with similar vans etc but please remember, THIS VAN IS NOT 12 MONTHS OLD!

I have no personal gripe with the dealers. True I would not buy from them again but I'm not the sort that gets off on one with people. I am all to often the one that people get off on, I don't do it to others.

I have a question for you Cris. Do you work within the industry? I bet you do and I'm not a gambler.

The fact remains that the British caravan industry needs to understand the needs, expectations and aspirations of its clientele or, like Caroline and Simon (above your comments) state, we'll all be buying vans from continental Europe. Will the caravan industry then go the same way as the motorbike and car industries?

Neil

 

[Neil_374240133]

Parting with fairly large sum of cash and investing in a pastime purchase that you probably intend to utilise for some years must be a blow when there is a problem.

Plenty of people invest far more money in cars that have problems, as annoying as a fault is if it has been corrected I doubt that you have much room to complain.

No doubt many of the same model caravan and other similar ones have come off the production line, unless the others have the same problems you can't say they the van is not fit for purpose.

If a car has a starter motor failure or a window leak you can't

claim the parts are not fit for purpose if many others are fine.

In this day and age a manufacturer would be rather at risk cost wise to offer a six year water ingress guarantee just to cover poor workmanship and have a production lines worth of caravans coming back every year for remedial repairs!

I think we know what brand van you are talking about, and if correct our personal experience is one of fine build and quality and that is supported by many others we know and also by the caravan business with trade in and sales prices on used vans.

As annoying as the problem is, "get a grip" check out others experinces with the same model and age van. The best you might get is a top price trade in from your dealer if you can't live with having had a problem.

If you are just going off on one with the dealer and they have been fair with dealing with the repair and the van has been returned in fine fettle I think you will not be helping your case.

HI Cris

Lets take your rather candid response one step at a time. You talk about starter motors and window leaks in a car. In a caravan this would be likened to a fridge or an oven. Once repaired all is well. Annoying I admit but all is ok. The point you are missing is this: the structure and strength of the caravan body relies on the structural strength and integrity of the caravan body, not with its many components that make it whole. The caravan can perform without its fridge and oven but if it has a structural defect, caused by damp ingress over time, the unit itself fails. There is therefore no need for a fridge or an oven.

I agree its great that we get these 6 year warranties etc. But if it fails within the first year, for whatever the reason, there is surly something wrong somewhere. We were advised last week we are not the only ones with the same problem. They guy at the dealer stated that we were one of three to have the same fault. The other two were to be returned to the maker. Speaking of which I have not mentioned the maker so please do not assume you know who I am referring. But lets get back to the 6-year warranty and please forgive me for being cynical. To comply with the warranty what do we have to do, oh yes, we have to have a service carried out on the van and it must be at the dealers. Not necessarily the one you brought it from but try and get warranty work done from a branded agent when you purchased your van 60 miles up the road. They are just not interested (in my experience). So we fork out on expensive servicing etc when the local guy we used for years is left out in the cold (and damp).

You talk about getting a grip. We are ordinary people, like most we both work,, we have a mortgage like a lot of folk, I am expected to perform to my best ability in my role, which is quite challenging at times. I also expect a lot for my money. In this case I feel very let down by both dealer and maker and you bet I'm angry. I bought a defective product when I paid for a first class one. Or is the maker of the brand you think I refer a 2nd rate one? Only you know that? I am open to hear of other people's experiences with similar vans etc but please remember, THIS VAN IS NOT 12 MONTHS OLD!

I have no personal gripe with the dealers. True I would not buy from them again but I'm not the sort that gets off on one with people. I am all to often the one that people get off on, I don't do it to others.

I have a question for you Cris. Do you work within the industry? I bet you do and I'm not a gambler.

The fact remains that the British caravan industry needs to understand the needs, expectations and aspirations of its clientele or, like Caroline and Simon (above your comments) state, we'll all be buying vans from continental Europe. Will the caravan industry then go the same way as the motorbike and car industries?

Neil

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Neil,

I am sorry to read of your experience, and I can understand your reticence at accepting a repair in this case.

It is my view that one of the most important purposes of a caravan is to keep its contents protected from external water ingress for the life of the product. Most caravans will normally happily survive for more than 5 years, so water ingress in less than 12 months seems to be unreasonable and thus not fit for purpose.

Now assuming that no physical or malicious damage has caused the leak, then it must be one or a combination of ineffective design, Incorrect/faulty materials, or poor workmanship. The seller by entering a contract with you is obliged to ensure the product is free from material defects such as those found above.

Recent case law suggests that if the problem had been noticed and reported within 6 months, then there would be a substantial chance that you could have rejected the whole caravan, however the situation for older product is not as black and white. Technically there is no legal time limit on such a claim, because it becomes harder to differentiate between manufacturing faults and normal wear and tear the older a product is. You should also be aware that the market value of the product is also taken into account so total free of charge replacement or 100% refund looks less likely.

If you wish to pursue this type of action, you can take out a small claims action, but I most strongly recommend that you seek professional legal advice before starting.

 

[cris_408518]

Neil

I'm as close to working in the Caravan industry as taking Blairs job when he leaves !

What you are saying sill has little validity. A friend had a front wheel come off a motor home due to a faulty bearing problem. A somewhat major problem that happened to other vehicles that came off a chassis production line at the same time. The chassis and then the completed motorhomes went through vigorous quality checks but still a problem went un-noticed.

No doubt the caravan was made by humans, and it only takes one to make a mistake in a production line or for a batch of faulty materials tp cause a problem.

Caravans use bonded parts and processes used in other industries. It only takes a faulty batch of 2 pack bonding agents to cause a production line problem such as yours, not that I know if that is the problem.

Because the dealer has had more than one problem does not write off the whole production line as cr1p or the guarantee as an excuse for bad workmanship.

As good as some foreign made caravans and motorhomes may be, that does not mean you may not get a similar problem. They have faults as well.

Personally I'm the customer from hell! But you have to keep a lid on your emotions and anger to get any where with a dealer or manufacturer.

It's hard when you pay out hard earned cash and then the dreams turn to night mares. But sorry that does not write off a whole brand whichever one it might be!

 

[AndrewWimborne]

I totally sympathise with your case. I have a top of the range British Van built by the leading UK manufacturer. The van is just over a year old and has been plagued with problems since day one. The main one leaking front windows has had 4 attempted fixes so far. New windows and new seals and still it leaks. I phoned the CC legal helpline to get some basic advice, and they also told me that i may have legal cover on my insurance policy. I have this and have now put it into the hands of solicitors who have started the ball moving.It is a slow process but will not cost me anything win or lose. I was fed up with the attitude of the dealer and the manufacturer who both claim that even though the van has leaks and numerous other faults it is of merchantable quality. Win or lose I feel better for putting up a fight.

 

[WilliamTups]

Hi Neil,

I am having the same problems (see my forum "Water Ingress") I am still fighting this but have look at the following link:

www.dti.gov.uk/files/file25486.pdf

This DTI booklet tells you what the trader should be doing and what your rights are.. Use it - it help turned the dealer around to my case within an hour but after a week they back tracked and have said that in the interests of their delaer agreement they are now saying repair only in line with the manufacturer....

Now taking legal advice

Regards

Bill

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello William,

I think your dealer has not read or understood their obligations as laid out in the booklet.

It is my understanding that in this situation the relevant contract is your purchase agreement with the seller. It stands alone and the manufacture has no jurisdiction over it or the obligations it places on the contract parties.

Under the supply of goods and services regulations, the seller is obliged to effect a remedy to a faulty item. That is the sellers responsibility and they cannot displace that obligation to a third party. They may subcontract the work but not the responsibility.

In turn and in a totally separate and unrelated contract the dealer will claim against the manufacture. The outcome of this second transaction should have no bearing what so ever on the progress or outcome of your claim against the seller.

That is the risk of business and the dealer should have insurance to cover such occurrences.

I suggest you seek professional legal advice either from a solicitor or from trading standards.

 

[WilliamTups]

Hello William,

I think your dealer has not read or understood their obligations as laid out in the booklet.

It is my understanding that in this situation the relevant contract is your purchase agreement with the seller. It stands alone and the manufacture has no jurisdiction over it or the obligations it places on the contract parties.

Under the supply of goods and services regulations, the seller is obliged to effect a remedy to a faulty item. That is the sellers responsibility and they cannot displace that obligation to a third party. They may subcontract the work but not the responsibility.

In turn and in a totally separate and unrelated contract the dealer will claim against the manufacture. The outcome of this second transaction should have no bearing what so ever on the progress or outcome of your claim against the seller.

That is the risk of business and the dealer should have insurance to cover such occurrences.

I suggest you seek professional legal advice either from a solicitor or from trading standards.

John,

Thanks for the reply - I have in writting that the dealer is passing this problem back to the manufcaturer under their warranty - the finance company are now sitting up and playing the game and have started their own investigations since my negioations (as requested by them) have failed and also upon production of a independant report from a AMIMI Assessor, Although this report has been dismissed by the Dealer and the Manufacturer.

My Home Insurance Company are taking legal action - after all do you think that a caravan with 80% Damp readings and stress fractures in two panels (Roof and front) caused by manufacturing defects are acceptable on a caravan just under a year old.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello William,

You have now mentioned the Finance Company, and that does change things. Technically you are purchasing the caravan from the Finance Company, and so your statutory rights actually rest with them not the dealer.

It is important that you supply all relevant information to the FC, and advise them that under the act you want them to resolve the problem.

You have apparently done the right thing in obtaining an independent professional report.

I am not sure how your home insurance has become involved, but the more weight you can bring to bear the greater your chance of a satisfactory outcome.

I would agree that stress fractures and damp ingress are not what you would expect in a 1 year old caravan that has been used correctly.

 

[WilliamTups]

Hello William,

You have now mentioned the Finance Company, and that does change things. Technically you are purchasing the caravan from the Finance Company, and so your statutory rights actually rest with them not the dealer.

It is important that you supply all relevant information to the FC, and advise them that under the act you want them to resolve the problem.

You have apparently done the right thing in obtaining an independent professional report.

I am not sure how your home insurance has become involved, but the more weight you can bring to bear the greater your chance of a satisfactory outcome.

I would agree that stress fractures and damp ingress are not what you would expect in a 1 year old caravan that has been used correctly.

John,

The home insurance got invloved since I have a legal protection cover so they are going to take the case on and win lose or draw its's going to cost me an excess of

 

[clivea]

Hi,

I hada 12 month old van that showed significant damp ingress and was realy shocked when I was told by the dealer. However, they then explained the work to be carried out and invited me to come and see them at work. It wasa real eye opener as not being bound by a production line thier fitters went over that van witha fine tooth comb and thier work was meticulous. The end result was that the van showed no more laeks in the following six yaers of ownership.

 

[WilliamTups]

Clive,

Gad to hear your repair when so well, my supplying delaer will not touch the van saying that the level of work required only means a manufacturers repair - so it will go back onto the production line again

Bill

 

[DeliDave]

i had a floor problem on a 2003 sterling eccles jewel and it went back to factory,WHAT A DISASTER,I would have done better to pay for a local repair by craftsmen and then sued the seller for the cost and at least got a decent job done.

 

[STEVE_5041381]

Please tell us the make so we can avoid buying "white elephants" I am thinking of buying a new one and its ordinary folk like you that I listen to.

 

[WilliamTups]

Steve

Sorry for the delay - I have having problems with a 2006 Bailey Ranger certainly would not but another Caravan from Bailey

 

[Hamer_5041128]

HI Cris

Lets take your rather candid response one step at a time. You talk about starter motors and window leaks in a car. In a caravan this would be likened to a fridge or an oven. Once repaired all is well. Annoying I admit but all is ok. The point you are missing is this: the structure and strength of the caravan body relies on the structural strength and integrity of the caravan body, not with its many components that make it whole. The caravan can perform without its fridge and oven but if it has a structural defect, caused by damp ingress over time, the unit itself fails. There is therefore no need for a fridge or an oven.

I agree its great that we get these 6 year warranties etc. But if it fails within the first year, for whatever the reason, there is surly something wrong somewhere. We were advised last week we are not the only ones with the same problem. They guy at the dealer stated that we were one of three to have the same fault. The other two were to be returned to the maker. Speaking of which I have not mentioned the maker so please do not assume you know who I am referring. But lets get back to the 6-year warranty and please forgive me for being cynical. To comply with the warranty what do we have to do, oh yes, we have to have a service carried out on the van and it must be at the dealers. Not necessarily the one you brought it from but try and get warranty work done from a branded agent when you purchased your van 60 miles up the road. They are just not interested (in my experience). So we fork out on expensive servicing etc when the local guy we used for years is left out in the cold (and damp).

You talk about getting a grip. We are ordinary people, like most we both work,, we have a mortgage like a lot of folk, I am expected to perform to my best ability in my role, which is quite challenging at times. I also expect a lot for my money. In this case I feel very let down by both dealer and maker and you bet I'm angry. I bought a defective product when I paid for a first class one. Or is the maker of the brand you think I refer a 2nd rate one? Only you know that? I am open to hear of other people's experiences with similar vans etc but please remember, THIS VAN IS NOT 12 MONTHS OLD!

I have no personal gripe with the dealers. True I would not buy from them again but I'm not the sort that gets off on one with people. I am all to often the one that people get off on, I don't do it to others.

I have a question for you Cris. Do you work within the industry? I bet you do and I'm not a gambler.

The fact remains that the British caravan industry needs to understand the needs, expectations and aspirations of its clientele or, like Caroline and Simon (above your comments) state, we'll all be buying vans from continental Europe. Will the caravan industry then go the same way as the motorbike and car industries?

Neil

Neil,

Can you explain why you would not purchase another caravan from your dealer. They have repaired your caravan,written off the service charge,and are returning it to you FOC.

This seems fair to me. In 35 years of caravanning and 11 new caravans we have had two leakers, one Elldis and one Bessacar. We have always dealt with the same dealer.Both caravans were repaired quickly with no further faults. I judge a dealer on how they deal with your problems, hence the same dealer in 35 years.

We hear so much criticism of dealers, but what more could yours have done?

Hamer

 

[tj_4]

Over the years I have purchased the following vans new and all have had to be returnrd to the factory for extensive repairs in the first 12 months.

Avondale Pearle Orion

Abbey Oxford (Cosalt build)

Eccles Emerald (Sprite build)

Ecclec Moonstone (swift build)

Not being put off i bought another Moonstone which was trouble free.

Currently I have a Bailey Senator Indiana which proves to be the beat yet.

I have friends who have problems with Coachman and Lunar.

Is any one better than the rest?

Regards

Steve

 

[John_374224558]

Neil,

I had a van a few years ago that had damp detected on its first service. Very annoying at the time but the dealer (Barrons) were superb. Straight back for thorough investigation, hairline cracks in front (and back) panels found. problem put to Avondales, with a suggestion that the van went back to them for repair, they didnt want to know about that but they did agree to pay for replacement panels,as it was turning out to be a common fault.Temporary resealing took place until the panels were delivered, the fit of the new panels and subsequent refitting of the channels by Barrons Kent was first class, they also replaced some timber that had got affected. I went on to own the van for a further 4 years with no further problems. I think it showed that these problems while they shouldn't happen in the first place needn't wreck the van provided you have got good backup as I had.

 

[stuart_5107319]

Sorry to say it

Should have bought a German 'van.

I cannot believe that good money is paid for British caravans

Sorry !!!

 

[Louis_5040937]

I've just posted a comment in another thread by my 2006 Bailey Ranger went back to the factory for repair after damp found at te first service.

 

[STEVE_5041381]

Thanks William - thats exactly the van I intend to buy later this year - got me thinking now ?

 

[STEVE_5041381]

Louis as well - the quality must certainly have gone down with Bailey - they used to be so good back in 98 when I got my first Ranger.