Driving observations

[Hutch]

I don't think so.

The Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989
1989 No. 1796PART IIIRegulation 24

Status:This is the original version (as it was originally made). This item of legislation is currently only available in its original format.
Requirements about the use of front and rear position lamps, rear registration plate lamps, side marker lamps and end-outline marker lamps

24.—(1) Save as provided in paragraphs (5) and (9), no person shall–

(a)use, or cause or permit to be used, on a road any vehicle which is in motion–
(i)between sunset and sunrise, or
(ii)in seriously reduced visibility between sunrise and sunset; or
(b)allow to remain at rest, or cause or permit to be allowed to remain at rest, on a road any vehicle between sunset and sunrise
unless every front position lamp, rear position lamp, rear registration plate lamp, side marker lamp and end-outline marker lamp with which the vehicle is required by these Regulations to be fitted is kept lit and unobscured.

 

[pitpony]

If you have a light bulb out and you don't know how to change it just take it to Halfords and pay what the going rate to have it changed, far better than some keen young Bobby pulling you and saying 'Thank you very much £70.00 please',

 

[chrisbee1]

Have a read of the Highway it is an offence to park on the highway without lights,

Unless in a 30mph (or lower)zone.

What if, like the area I live in, the street lights go out after midnight (except those on junctions)

Yeh, they do here as well. I don't think the regulations have been amended to take into account the local council spending cuts. The regulations only refer to the 30mph speed limit. They make no mention of street lights, probably assuming they're on all night. My car's currently on my drive, hopefully I'll get a break in the forecast rain to replace the bulb before someone on here reports me for this heinous crime.

 

[Parksy]

This might seem a bit off topic, but bear with me and read on.....
Just over a year ago I bought a 2013 Ford Fiesta 1.6 diesel Titanium X as my local runabout and day trip car now that I'm retired, the 2.8 TD auto Trundle Truck towing vehicle is a bit expensive for every day use.
The Ford is basically a computer on wheels, everything comes on automatically and it was and is a joy to drive.
Last summer I started to have problems, the Ford would slow down for no reason, the revs would die off and then the vehicle would behave normally again.
This became an issue in traffic as you might imagine and the problem pointed to an engine management fault.
I booked the Ford in to a local auto electrical diagnostics workshop for the fault to be diagnosed and rectified.
The technicians were working on the car for around three hours, I did some local shopping and collected the car when they phoned me, dreading a massive repair bill.
The boss presented me with a bill for £120, which could have been worse, and when I asked what had caused the problems the boss asked me to hold out my hand.
I did so, and with a smile he placed a brake light bulb into my palm! hmy:
The diagnostic machine had indicated lots of fault codes which were eliminated one by one, this is what had taken the time and baffled the technicians.
They found out that the brake light bulb, which as a conscientious driver I'd replaced a couple of weeks back, had caused all of the problems. :woohoo:
The bulb had stayed on as I was driving unknown to me, this was detected by the onboard computer which wrongly deduced that I was braking and the fuel was cut to the injectors as a conservation measure.
Computers in cars can sometimes be too clever, the replacement bulb was not the approved model (although I had given the car reg when I bought the bulb) and this was why it had stayed on and caused all the problems.
Replacing a brake light bulb myself cost me £120, so the moral of the story has to be 'make sure that the computer doesn't say ''No'' ' if you change a bulb, or get a store to do it, they would then be responsible if things went pear shaped. :evil:

 

[otherclive]

Re automatic lights may car has such a setting and when it activates the headlights a small green symbol shows on the dash. However I never use the automatic lights as I wouldn't want to be in a situation where the car decides to switch on the headlights and another road user then thinks that I am signalling to let them out of a turning or something similar. Result....nasty. I recall my police driving instructor telling us that a flash of the lights should only be used to warn other users of your presence.

 

[KeefySher]

Re automatic lights may car has such a setting and when it activates the headlights a small green symbol shows on the dash. However I never use the automatic lights as I wouldn't want to be in a situation where the car decides to switch on the headlights and another road user then thinks that I am signalling to let them out of a turning or something similar. Result....nasty. I recall my police driving instructor telling us that a flash of the lights should only be used to warn other users of your presence.

What is the difference if you are proceeding along a carriageway sans headlights, there is a sudden darkening of skies and downpour, you manually turn on your headlights to comply with the Highway Code to use lights in poor visibility conditions, the idiot who clearly has failed to have learned the rules of the road, thinks, incorrectly, you are letting him out pulls out??

Hopefully you will have been driving with due care and attention and within the road conditions at the time, so any incident would be minimal in consequence. The latest cars have systems to assist a driver in such cases. Although the driver should still drive aware

Flash of headlights and use of the horn have only 1 common definition, 'I am here', a warning sign / indication.

 

[otherclive]

Re automatic lights may car has such a setting and when it activates the headlights a small green symbol shows on the dash. However I never use the automatic lights as I wouldn't want to be in a situation where the car decides to switch on the headlights and another road user then thinks that I am signalling to let them out of a turning or something similar. Result....nasty. I recall my police driving instructor telling us that a flash of the lights should only be used to warn other users of your presence.

What is the difference if you are proceeding along a carriageway sans headlights, there is a sudden darkening of skies and downpour, you manually turn on your headlights to comply with the Highway Code to use lights in poor visibility conditions, the idiot who clearly has failed to have learned the rules of the road, thinks, incorrectly, you are letting him out pulls out??

Hopefully you will have been driving with due care and attention and within the road conditions at the time, so any incident would be minimal in consequence. The latest cars have systems to assist a driver in such cases. Although the driver should still drive aware

Flash of headlights and use of the horn have only 1 common definition, 'I am here', a warning sign / indication.

As I said above flash of lights to warn of my presence on the road, so I'm well aware of the use of the horn too thanks. I guess the only difference between my switching on the lights and an automatic system switching on the lights is that I am aware of what could happen so I will check that by my switching on lights I am not going to send an incorrect message to another road user. So avoiding even a minimal incident as you define it. If the sky is darkening why wait for the sudden downpour to switch on lights?

 

[pitpony]

This might seem a bit off topic, but bear with me and read on.....
Just over a year ago I bought a 2013 Ford Fiesta 1.6 diesel Titanium X as my local runabout and day trip car now that I'm retired, the 2.8 TD auto Trundle Truck towing vehicle is a bit expensive for every day use.
The Ford is basically a computer on wheels, everything comes on automatically and it was and is a joy to drive.
Last summer I started to have problems, the Ford would slow down for no reason, the revs would die off and then the vehicle would behave normally again.
This became an issue in traffic as you might imagine and the problem pointed to an engine management fault.
I booked the Ford in to a local auto electrical diagnostics workshop for the fault to be diagnosed and rectified.
The technicians were working on the car for around three hours, I did some local shopping and collected the car when they phoned me, dreading a massive repair bill.
The boss presented me with a bill for £120, which could have been worse, and when I asked what had caused the problems the boss asked me to hold out my hand.
I did so, and with a smile he placed a brake light bulb into my palm! hmy:
The diagnostic machine had indicated lots of fault codes which were eliminated one by one, this is what had taken the time and baffled the technicians.
They found out that the brake light bulb, which as a conscientious driver I'd replaced a couple of weeks back, had caused all of the problems. :woohoo:
The bulb had stayed on as I was driving unknown to me, this was detected by the onboard computer which wrongly deduced that I was braking and the fuel was cut to the injectors as a conservation measure.
Computers in cars can sometimes be too clever, the replacement bulb was not the approved model (although I had given the car reg when I bought the bulb) and this was why it had stayed on and caused all the problems.
Replacing a brake light bulb myself cost me £120, so the moral of the story has to be 'make sure that the computer doesn't say ''No'' ' if you change a bulb, or get a store to do it, they would then be responsible if things went pear shaped. :evil:

Parky,
I go along with what you say about cars being computers on wheels, my Quashqai would like to tell me that one of my tyres in underinflated, sorry but I don't want to know that and I also don't need parking sensors, who do they fit these gismos for?, if you don't know how to check your tyres or know how to park you should not be on the road, going back to the lightbulb, I was down in Spain back in the 70's doing continental work and I had a Scania that started to play up on the fuel side, I then went in to the Scania dealers near Benidorm, after their findings they said it was a new fuel pump, to cut the story short my boss was not going to cough up for that and said it was cheaper to get it back home, he sent a fitter and a wrecker down to bring it back to the UK , but when the fitter turned three days later straight away up he went under the dash and found a little 20p fuse which he replaced and hey presto I went off to pick up my oranges, to many electronics on vehicles today,

 

[KeefySher]

Re automatic lights may car has such a setting and when it activates the headlights a small green symbol shows on the dash. However I never use the automatic lights as I wouldn't want to be in a situation where the car decides to switch on the headlights and another road user then thinks that I am signalling to let them out of a turning or something similar. Result....nasty. I recall my police driving instructor telling us that a flash of the lights should only be used to warn other users of your presence.

What is the difference if you are proceeding along a carriageway sans headlights, there is a sudden darkening of skies and downpour, you manually turn on your headlights to comply with the Highway Code to use lights in poor visibility conditions, the idiot who clearly has failed to have learned the rules of the road, thinks, incorrectly, you are letting him out pulls out??

Hopefully you will have been driving with due care and attention and within the road conditions at the time, so any incident would be minimal in consequence. The latest cars have systems to assist a driver in such cases. Although the driver should still drive aware

Flash of headlights and use of the horn have only 1 common definition, 'I am here', a warning sign / indication.

As I said above flash of lights to warn of my presence on the road, so I'm well aware of the use of the horn too thanks. I guess the only difference between my switching on the lights and an automatic system switching on the lights is that I am aware of what could happen so I will check that by my switching on lights I am not going to send an incorrect message to another road user. So avoiding even a minimal incident as you define it. If the sky is darkening why wait for the sudden downpour to switch on lights?

The term I used was 'sudden darkening of skies and downpour', not your incorrect interpretation of what you thought I wrote. Only answer the exam question asked!! Therein lies the key issue 'interpretation' Switching on of headlights be it automatically via a sensing system, or manually is different to a 'flash' and therefore I suggest cannot be an 'incorrect message'. Wherever systems go, there will still be the human factors of slow cerebral development that will result in accidents

 

[pitpony]

KF,
Tell me more about your driving qualifications,

 

[Parksy]

Re automatic lights may car has such a setting and when it activates the headlights a small green symbol shows on the dash. However I never use the automatic lights as I wouldn't want to be in a situation where the car decides to switch on the headlights and another road user then thinks that I am signalling to let them out of a turning or something similar. Result....nasty. I recall my police driving instructor telling us that a flash of the lights should only be used to warn other users of your presence.

What is the difference if you are proceeding along a carriageway sans headlights, there is a sudden darkening of skies and downpour, you manually turn on your headlights to comply with the Highway Code to use lights in poor visibility conditions, the idiot who clearly has failed to have learned the rules of the road, thinks, incorrectly, you are letting him out pulls out??

Hopefully you will have been driving with due care and attention and within the road conditions at the time, so any incident would be minimal in consequence. The latest cars have systems to assist a driver in such cases. Although the driver should still drive aware

Flash of headlights and use of the horn have only 1 common definition, 'I am here', a warning sign / indication.

As I said above flash of lights to warn of my presence on the road, so I'm well aware of the use of the horn too thanks. I guess the only difference between my switching on the lights and an automatic system switching on the lights is that I am aware of what could happen so I will check that by my switching on lights I am not going to send an incorrect message to another road user. So avoiding even a minimal incident as you define it. If the sky is darkening why wait for the sudden downpour to switch on lights?

The term I used was 'sudden darkening of skies and downpour', not your incorrect interpretation of what you thought I wrote. Only answer the exam question asked!! Therein lies the key issue 'interpretation' Switching on of headlights be it automatically via a sensing system, or manually is different to a 'flash' and therefore I suggest cannot be an 'incorrect message'. Wherever systems go, there will still be the human factors of slow cerebral development that will result in accidents

KF,
Tell me more about your driving qualifications,

Discussions of this sort can all too easily become highly charged, especially when a 'one to one' situation develops.
The thread is about driving standards which is a worthy topic for discussion, none of us are perfect and it would help if comments were not directed personally at individuals but were general points of view. Thanks

 

[pensioner]

Mmm, getting a little heated me thinks,,,

However going back to the original point of the topic, in my humble opinion it's because most of those in cars on the roads today are "Users" not drivers,,

They scrape through the driving test, throw away the highway code book; if they ever had one, more likely they borrowed one,and off they go.

From the comments already made on here I think most would agree that you begin to learn to driver the day AFTER you pass your test and continue to learn for several years before you can begin to call it experience.

The sooner more ex-pupils are encouraged to go in for the advanced test the better, there are several organisations available and all teach "proper" driving. Unfortunately so few qualified driving instructors have this themselves they just don't offer it to their pupils.

I am a retired instructor, and a retired examiner, and took the advanced test several times including a police defensive driving and skid pan course, worth it's weight in gold.

 

[Thingy]

Im totally with pensioners comments.
When getting my wife and both daughters through the driving test I always told them

"let the instructor teach you to pass the test, and I will teach you to drive" No offence to the instructors but they have to work to a certain goal.

In my lifetime, there is little I havent driven and few places I havent driven them in, and IM STILL LEARNING.

Not long back we followed a school of motoring vehicle and both made the comment that the pupil would be lucky to EVER pass the driving test. The stunned silence from both of us, on pasing the vehicle was that the driver was solo..............................makes you think.

 

[JonnyG]

several years back whilst going through some roadworks on the M1 near to Luton i actually phoned the car in front doing 40 mph in the 50 mph roadworks and swaying between the 2 open lanes.. hands free. .. some one car outfit of a driving school was giving a learner a driving lesson on the motorway! he genuinely came across as it was news to him. or maybe he was thinking ahead..

 

[KeefySher]

Re automatic lights may car has such a setting and when it activates the headlights a small green symbol shows on the dash. However I never use the automatic lights as I wouldn't want to be in a situation where the car decides to switch on the headlights and another road user then thinks that I am signalling to let them out of a turning or something similar. Result....nasty. I recall my police driving instructor telling us that a flash of the lights should only be used to warn other users of your presence.

What is the difference if you are proceeding along a carriageway sans headlights, there is a sudden darkening of skies and downpour, you manually turn on your headlights to comply with the Highway Code to use lights in poor visibility conditions, the idiot who clearly has failed to have learned the rules of the road, thinks, incorrectly, you are letting him out pulls out??

Hopefully you will have been driving with due care and attention and within the road conditions at the time, so any incident would be minimal in consequence. The latest cars have systems to assist a driver in such cases. Although the driver should still drive aware

Flash of headlights and use of the horn have only 1 common definition, 'I am here', a warning sign / indication.

As I said above flash of lights to warn of my presence on the road, so I'm well aware of the use of the horn too thanks. I guess the only difference between my switching on the lights and an automatic system switching on the lights is that I am aware of what could happen so I will check that by my switching on lights I am not going to send an incorrect message to another road user. So avoiding even a minimal incident as you define it. If the sky is darkening why wait for the sudden downpour to switch on lights?

The term I used was 'sudden darkening of skies and downpour', not your incorrect interpretation of what you thought I wrote. Only answer the exam question asked!! Therein lies the key issue 'interpretation' Switching on of headlights be it automatically via a sensing system, or manually is different to a 'flash' and therefore I suggest cannot be an 'incorrect message'. Wherever systems go, there will still be the human factors of slow cerebral development that will result in accidents

KF,
Tell me more about your driving qualifications,

Discussions of this sort can all too easily become highly charged, especially when a 'one to one' situation develops.
The thread is about driving standards which is a worthy topic for discussion, none of us are perfect and it would help if comments were not directed personally at individuals but were general points of view. Thanks

Confused of Hampshire here. The potentially contentious bit of my post that is actually about the necessity to continue education as a Driving Licence holder is then put across in a different set of words by the next 3 posts, that was removed is now requoted in the post I've quoted above. :silly: :silly:

On another example of driving standards. I was once rear ended at speed on the A40 at Oxford one Christmas Eve. Despite my efforts whilst stationary to operate the hazard lights then as the fast approaching vehicle that was clearly not going to stop I repeatedly operated the brake lights or 'flashed' them (similar to a flash of headlights to give warning I am here) the said car impacted. When exchanging details with the errant driver I picked up the Institute of Advanced Motorists grille badge that was smashed off and handed it to the errant driver, who in passing let on he was an Advanced Police Driving Instructor to boot Might have had the qualifications, but useless if not applied practically.

Experiential learning holds an awful lot of credence

 

[Parksy]

Confused of Hampshire here. The potentially contentious bit of my post that is actually about the necessity to continue education as a Driving Licence holder is then put across in a different set of words by the next 3 posts, that was removed is now requoted in the post I've quoted above. :silly: :silly:

Dear Confused of Hampshire....
As forum moderators and all round good guys we try our best to help this website and forum to stay free from spam advertising posts, to report or to resolve any technical issues and to help to make sure that everyone enjoys using this forum.
Sometimes the written word doesn't convey to others that you too are one of the good guys, you might not mean to but it's very easy to upset someone if it looks as though you might have implied (wrongly) that they are not quite up to speed with innovative automobile fol de rols like automatic lighting or other wonders of the modern age.
I'm sure that as one of the aforementioned good guys you wouldn't dream of upsetting anybody and never gave it a thought when you wrote the bit that I later edited.
When it looks as though somebody might be upset or perhaps felt a bit insulted, your local friendly moderators try to restore some forum equilibrium by doing a spot of deleting (it's a hobby B) )
Unfortunately she who is the light of my life also has a hobby which involves me trudging round Tesco pushing a trolley, so my time can be limited and a tangle of quotes can take time to sort out.
Hopefully everything is now as it should be and we can all live happily ever after....
Yours etc.
Uncle Parksy

 

[KeefySher]

Confused of Hampshire here. The potentially contentious bit of my post that is actually about the necessity to continue education as a Driving Licence holder is then put across in a different set of words by the next 3 posts, that was removed is now requoted in the post I've quoted above. :silly: :silly:

Dear Confused of Hampshire....
As forum moderators and all round good guys we try our best to help this website and forum to stay free from spam advertising posts, to report or to resolve any technical issues and to help to make sure that everyone enjoys using this forum.
Sometimes the written word doesn't convey to others that you too are one of the good guys, you might not mean to but it's very easy to upset someone if it looks as though you might have implied (wrongly) that they are not quite up to speed with innovative automobile fol de rols like automatic lighting or other wonders of the modern age.
I'm sure that as one of the aforementioned good guys you wouldn't dream of upsetting anybody and never gave it a thought when you wrote the bit that I later edited.
When it looks as though somebody might be upset or perhaps felt a bit insulted, your local friendly moderators try to restore some forum equilibrium by doing a spot of deleting (it's a hobby B) )
Unfortunately she who is the light of my life also has a hobby which involves me trudging round Tesco pushing a trolley, so my time can be limited and a tangle of quotes can take time to sort out.
Hopefully everything is now as it should be and we can all live happily ever after....
Yours etc.
Uncle Parksy

Dear Uncle Parksy
I too understand the Thursday Tesco thing. It's called 'care in the community day' in our circle of friends. Partly due to when a friend had a major operation that required my good wife and myself to take her to Tesco on Thursday to do the shopping as she was unable to lift, handle, push, pull or any physical exertion. Each item required from the higher shelves was met with the instruction to me 'Dad, Dad get that'. Passing shoppers often remarked 'he's not old enough to be her Dad'. A contextual thing in real life

As you point out, context of the written word on the internet can oft be open to interpretation, bit like the law, but I do tend to attempt to employ emojees to illustrate the intent.

Having been a global moderator on other forums I understand the thankless task the volunteer mods have, and appreciate your efforts.

Happy shopping / caravanning etc

 

[ProfJohnL]

Re automatic lights may car has such a setting and when it activates the headlights a small green symbol shows on the dash. However I never use the automatic lights as I wouldn't want to be in a situation where the car decides to switch on the headlights and another road user then thinks that I am signalling to let them out of a turning or something similar. Result....nasty. I recall my police driving instructor telling us that a flash of the lights should only be used to warn other users of your presence.

Quite so, and I have always made that assumption, and only acted in response to a flash of lights if accompanied by other indications. Heres another version of the problem that I encountered. In their wisdom the local council had installed speed calming humps in a local road, just a few meters from a side junction. On approaching said junction at night I noticed there was a car waiting to emerge from the junction. As my car traversed the speed hump, the other car started to emerge from the junction causing me to have to brake quite hard. The other driver seemed very angry and he was quite abusive to me through the open windows claiming I'd flashed him out!

 

[KeefySher]

Re automatic lights may car has such a setting and when it activates the headlights a small green symbol shows on the dash. However I never use the automatic lights as I wouldn't want to be in a situation where the car decides to switch on the headlights and another road user then thinks that I am signalling to let them out of a turning or something similar. Result....nasty. I recall my police driving instructor telling us that a flash of the lights should only be used to warn other users of your presence.

Quite so, and I have always made that assumption, and only acted in response to a flash of lights if accompanied by other indications. Heres another version of the problem that I encountered. In their wisdom the local council had installed speed calming humps in a local road, just a few meters from a side junction. On approaching said junction at night I noticed there was a car waiting to emerge from the junction. As my car traversed the speed hump, the other car started to emerge from the junction causing me to have to brake quite hard. The other driver seemed very angry and he was quite abusive to me through the open windows claiming I'd flashed him out!

Playing devil's advocate The road conditions had changed with the installation of the speed humps / traffic calming measures, the analogy of automatic lights could be drawn in so far as things change and a driver licence holder should keep abreast of changes pertinent to application of said licence. As there was a change in road conditions and you had to brake quite hard, were you driving at an inappropriate speed for the conditions? Yes there may have been a posted speed limit, but it's a limit not a target Be alert, Britain needs lerts

Is this thread going to be another nose weight or gas bottle thread?

 

[otherclive]

Prof has identified another aspect where inopportune light flashes could lead to an accident, or incident. When I started towing I often used to get flashed by oncoming drivers due to the pitching of the unit and I guess some could have seen it as me flashing them as a sign of giving permission to do something such as come out from a junction, or turn across me. But since passing my test on my 17th birthday in 1964 in a Ford anglia 105E, then two weeks later driving my Dad's Singer Gazelle to Switzerland, I have successfully managed the transition to modern cars with their self levelling suspensions and headlight systems, and plethora of on board systems; and changing road systems too.

 

[pitpony]

Prof has identified another aspect where inopportune light flashes could lead to an accident, or incident. When I started towing I often used to get flashed by oncoming drivers due to the pitching of the unit and I guess some could have seen it as me flashing them as a sign of giving permission to do something such as come out from a junction, or turn across me. But since passing my test on my 17th birthday in 1964 in a Ford anglia 105E, then two weeks later driving my Dad's Singer Gazelle to Switzerland, I have successfully managed the transition to modern cars with their self levelling suspensions and headlight systems, and plethora of on board systems; and changing road systems too.

My Dad had a Singer Gazelle best of it was he could not drive but had my brother in Law drive him round, was the 105E a 1600 cc if my memory serves me right,

 

[otherclive]

Prof has identified another aspect where inopportune light flashes could lead to an accident, or incident. When I started towing I often used to get flashed by oncoming drivers due to the pitching of the unit and I guess some could have seen it as me flashing them as a sign of giving permission to do something such as come out from a junction, or turn across me. But since passing my test on my 17th birthday in 1964 in a Ford anglia 105E, then two weeks later driving my Dad's Singer Gazelle to Switzerland, I have successfully managed the transition to modern cars with their self levelling suspensions and headlight systems, and plethora of on board systems; and changing road systems too.

My Dad had a Singer Gazelle best of it was he could not drive but had my brother in Law drive him round, was the 105E a 1600 cc if my memory serves me right,

I think the Anglia was only around 1000cc with a 4 speed box and I don't think that there was a synchro on first gear, or if there was the one I drove was shot. Most of my driving experience pre test was on my uncle's farm tracks and cattle yards, but I had been riding motor bikes for 12 months prior so I had (some) road sense. The Gazelle was 1600 (I think) and compared to the Anglia was the height of luxury. Driving via Germany though I soon got used to the Mercedes bearing down on me with the headlights on full beam to advise me to move over.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

My first car was a Ford Anglia 105E and from what I can remember was about 1000cc (no reg year). I progressed from that to a Cortina estate (D reg) and then to an MG Midget (F reg), so it wasn't until I got my fourth car that I had a rear parcel shelf (for the obligatory box of tissues).

PS - and the nodding dog. hmy:

 

[Keefanmaxx]

The first car I owned with a rear shelf, a 1984 Cavalier SRi, had a big pair of speakers put in it ....... but that's a different topic!!

 

[intransient1]

My pet hate is all those people who have modern cars who don't know how to use the optional extras to "indicate where they are going" especially on roundabouts and motorways.
This is also spreading to to that strange breed that seem to all have the same id letters POLICE, then again the old adage still applies, " do as I say not as I do" :evil: