ECU Re-map

[Morganic]

Has anyone any experience of having an ECU re-map on their towcar.

Im thinking of having it done on a Skoda Octavia 1.9 TDI.Claimed power will go from 105 bhp-132 bhp. This engine used to be available in 130bhp guise.

Would like to hear your views or experience

 

[Lutz]

If the 130bhp engine had the same clutch, gearbox, brakes, tyre equipment as your 105bhp variant and you tell your insurance what you've done and the car is no longer under warranty, I guess it could be contemplated. However, as you see, the whole thing is a bit 'iffy'.

 

[Ian_374396739]

I'm a great believer in remapping having had 5 cars now done, Freelander TD4, Honda HRV, Honda Civic, Latest CRV and a C5, all showed greater power, better fuel economy etc. However check that a genuine VAG chip is not available as was the case with MG ZT's and Rover 75's as this was a common upgrade by dealers to take the power up on the Diesel variants I believ taking to @130+ bhp. I know the Skoda Garage that was in Aberdeenshire supplied some Skoda chipped 130/140 bhp Octavia 4x4 estates done in this manner.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi Morganic,

As you have asked the question, I have to assume that you are not

a tuning expert, or a well informed car mechanic, if you were you would know the answer, and the possible consequences.

I question Ian's claims for greater power and better fuel economy, you don't get something for nothing.

It seems inconceivable that a major car manufacture would not be trying to offer the best possible fuel economy for any given engine set up. There must be some reason for their choices.

I do wonder if Ian's cars have all been new and not subject to a MOT whilst he has had them. It might be the emissions are not within specification.

Equally and as Lutz points out the other mechanical parts of the car may not be designed to handle the uprated power out from the engine.

Unless the upgrade package is approved by car's manufacture I woudl steer well clear of it.

 

[NigelHutson]

I have had several cars which have been "upgraded" either by re-map or the tuning box. None has been any problem whatsoever. Emissions at MOT time just as good as original (better in some cases), no component failures, etc, etc.

The reason that Manufacturers don't upgrade in the first place is that vehicles are shipped all over the world. Rather than tuning vehicles specific to one country, they're normally all the same. As fuel quality varies so much from country to country, they hedge their bets as to the worst. In view of the fact that many VAG products were tuned to 130 bhp, your Skoda will not present the slightest problem. If you have a reputable upgrade, they usually tune within the manufacturers tellerences anyway. The manufacturers own upgrades are an absolute rip off. I remember Rover wanting

 

[Lutz]

If you have a look at the price list of the Insignia, for example, there is a whopping price difference between the 110PS diesel, the 130PS diesel and the 160PS diesel versions, even though in all cases it's basically all the same engine. The price differential includes major differences in brake, engine cooling, clutch and tyre equipment - all changes required in line with the respective engine output and not just a sales ploy to extract as much profit as possible from those who want more performance.

 

[NigelHutson]

I'd be very surprised if that was the case really. Certainly there was absolutely no difference whatsoever in the case of the Rover 75 / MG ZT. Indeed it has been suggested at several motoring press events that manufacturers sometimes don't supply their vehicles in standard tune so that if comparisons are being done some have an unfair advantage. Everything is the same except for the state of tune (i.e. ECU re-map). Lutz are you able to get the part numbers relevent to each of the Insignia's please, i.e. clutch, brakes, tyres, engine cooling, and perhaps the same for the Skoda's?

 

[Lutz]

As I no longer have any direct access to part numbers, etc. I cannot give specific details. However, going by the specs in the brochures alone, each variant will have different tyres.

The 110PS diesel has a top speed of 190km/h, requiring 'T' speed rated tyres,

the 130PS diesel has a top speed of 205km/h, requiring 'H' speed rated tyres, and

the 160PS diesel has a top speed of 218km/h, requiring 'V' speed rated tyres.

 

[Lutz]

Besides, the 110PS version turns out 260Nm of torque, the 130PS 300Nm and the 160PS 350Nm. With a difference of well over 30% between the weakest and the most powerful engine there is bound to be a difference in the clutch alone, otherwise the weakest model would be over-engineered.

 

[NigelHutson]

Granted there might be slight differences between the base and highest Insignia, but between a 105 bhp and a 130 bhp car, I very much doubt it. Also the tyres will depend more upon the wheels fitted than the actual performance. The first Rover 75 that I had (116 bhp) had V rated tyres despite its modest performance, because a) they were more common (and therefore cheaper), and b) the car could be fitted with a 190 bhp V6 petrol.

As the same engines were fitted to Passats, Golfs etc, I'm sure part numbers could be obtained easily, and if they are different for perfomance sake, I will stand corrected.

 

[NigelHutson]

To satisfy my own curiosity, I have just contacted a local VW dealer, and the front brake pads are the same for 1.9 Tdi 100 bhp, 1.9 Tdi 130 bhp, and surprisingly, the 2.5 V6 Tdi.

 

[Lutz]

As I said before, if the variant with the least power otherwise has the same specification as the most powerful one, then it is over-engineered and you can be assured that is something the the car manufacturers avoid at all costs, with costs being the taken in the literal sense.

 

[Lutz]

To satisfy my own curiosity, I have just contacted a local VW dealer, and the front brake pads are the same for 1.9 Tdi 100 bhp, 1.9 Tdi 130 bhp, and surprisingly, the 2.5 V6 Tdi.

The pads could well be the same (in fact, very likely, too if the wheels are the same size), but are the discs the same, too? It is conceivable that the top of the range models could have ventilated discs.

 

[Guest]

being as we are talking about the 1.9 VW lump here, the 105 bhp is not the same as the 1.9 130bhp lump. Intercooler is larger on the 130bhp version which also has extra oil ways to squirt under the pistons. The con rods in the 130bhp version I believe are the same as the 150 bhp version which are beefed up.

You might find the 105 bhp does not have a vnt turbocharger as the 130 bhp does. DMF and clutch assembly could be smaller on the 105bhp version too.

Just because the sticker says 1.9 does not mean they have the same internals or inter coolers or turbo's, or injectors.

Thats an old wife's tale regarding shipping cars to different markets!and fuel grades differing!We are in the computer age not the 80s.

No doubt a back street tuner told you that!

 

[NigelHutson]

No. It is fact! Indeed, there are different grades of diesel and petrol in Western Europe (even Tesco!). Whilst over here that is unlikely to make much difference (although some steer clear of supermarket fuels - why?, and not me I hasten to add), for numerous reasons there are likely to be different qualities throughout the world.

I suppose that the only oil suitable for VAG engines is their own still is it? I wonder why? Perhaps it could have something to do with punters who swallow it and them looking after big fat profits!

 

[Guest]

Sorry Nigel don't waste your breath, I told you what is what concerning the many differences between the 1.9 vw with differing power outputs.

"Fuel" indeed there are different cetane ratings for diesel fuel

Do you know the numbers? didn't thing you would, but they all meet the minimum requirements regardless of whether purchased here France Germany Spain Italy, western Europe!

"OIL" let me just look in my cupboard. here you are Comma diesel PD. for ford, VW Skoda, Audi.

Just in case the Ford bit threw you that will be for the Ford galaxy upto 2007 with the VW 1.9 PD engine!!!!

 

[Guest]

With regards to the original question the "remap" If its a reputable firm and includes rolling road set up,i don't see why not.Unless the engine turbo have done massive miles, you would get a benefit but do not be disheartened if it falls short of the 130 bhp mark.

 

[Lutz]

No. It is fact! Indeed, there are different grades of diesel and petrol in Western Europe (even Tesco!). Whilst over here that is unlikely to make much difference (although some steer clear of supermarket fuels - why?, and not me I hasten to add), for numerous reasons there are likely to be different qualities throughout the world.

I suppose that the only oil suitable for VAG engines is their own still is it? I wonder why? Perhaps it could have something to do with punters who swallow it and them looking after big fat profits!

Modern engine management systems are perfectly capable of adjusting automatically to suit any changes in fuel. The owner's handbook in fact often even references the use of both regular and super grades without the need for any adjustment (some countries even offer 3 grades of petrol). Any possible market-specific changes made to engines within Europe is only to allow for differences in vehicle taxation to suit certain power output bands in some countries. Any further changes apply only outside Europe.

 

[Chrisbee]

I too cannot see that the manufacturer would not map the ECU for maximum power for minimum fuel taking account of all relevent safety and reliability constraints. They sell cars on power and fuel consumtion figures, why not programme the ECU for the best possible?

If you do go for a remap, make sure it's a good one and you keep a record of who did the work. I am currently working on a vehicle, albeit an HGV, which has a problem with the speed limiter not working. It seems that when it was "chipped" by the previous owner the data was locked. Although I work for a main dealer and have the latest manufacture's software etc the vehicle ECU will not allow me access. The current owner doesn't know who chipped the truck so his only option to make the vehicle legal is over

 

[Ian_374396739]

Hi Morganic,

As you have asked the question, I have to assume that you are not

a tuning expert, or a well informed car mechanic, if you were you would know the answer, and the possible consequences.

I question Ian's claims for greater power and better fuel economy, you don't get something for nothing.

It seems inconceivable that a major car manufacture would not be trying to offer the best possible fuel economy for any given engine set up. There must be some reason for their choices.

I do wonder if Ian's cars have all been new and not subject to a MOT whilst he has had them. It might be the emissions are not within specification.

Equally and as Lutz points out the other mechanical parts of the car may not be designed to handle the uprated power out from the engine.

Unless the upgrade package is approved by car's manufacture I woudl steer well clear of it.

In the earlier cars some were subject to MOT and passed no problem, and latest was remapped by supplying garage, however I did not mention had a Nissan X-trail with a tuning chip and that smoked like hell and made little differnec eventually took off.

 

[NigelHutson]

Sorry Nigel don't waste your breath, I told you what is what concerning the many differences between the 1.9 vw with differing power outputs.

"Fuel" indeed there are different cetane ratings for diesel fuel

Do you know the numbers? didn't thing you would, but they all meet the minimum requirements regardless of whether purchased here France Germany Spain Italy, western Europe!

"OIL" let me just look in my cupboard. here you are Comma diesel PD. for ford, VW Skoda, Audi.

Just in case the Ford bit threw you that will be for the Ford galaxy upto 2007 with the VW 1.9 PD engine!!!!

And China, India, Egypt? In fact as you are so well up onj these, perhaps you'd like to give all the specifications in the World? I'd be really interested!

I said in a previous post that I would stand corrected in a reasonable manner, so why the clever comments?

As with another person who posted, we were trying to be helpful to someone asking a very reasonable question. From experience I have had upgrades on a number of vehicles, none of which has suffered any ill effects (as has the other person).

I am well aware that the old Galaxy suffered the 1.9 VAG noise box!

 

[Lutz]

Sorry Nigel don't waste your breath, I told you what is what concerning the many differences between the 1.9 vw with differing power outputs.

"Fuel" indeed there are different cetane ratings for diesel fuel

Do you know the numbers? didn't thing you would, but they all meet the minimum requirements regardless of whether purchased here France Germany Spain Italy, western Europe!

"OIL" let me just look in my cupboard. here you are Comma diesel PD. for ford, VW Skoda, Audi.

Just in case the Ford bit threw you that will be for the Ford galaxy upto 2007 with the VW 1.9 PD engine!!!!

The countries that you mention, Nigel, are generally responsible for their own engines as the volumes are often too low for the European plants to bother with. Even the basic engine that they use is often different as some of these countries have leaded fuel and therefore don't even have catalytic converters.

 

[Guest]

Sorry about the manorism of my post Nigel.

Point is you are mixing up two entirely different issues.

You were/are assuming because there are different BHP levels on a same engine,and because the gap between them is close enough for a "claimed" remap to make up the difference,that they actually are the same spec of internals anyway.

That is wrong and misleading punters.Within reason a remap is OK, but fairy stories put out by tuners with regards factory limits and different cetene fuels is just that, they play such a small part certainly nothing like the 20% plus power grades they talk about.

There are up to 4 points difference between standard cetene and the ultima versions. adding something like millers can also add another 3 plus points. so now we could have as much as 20% higher cetene level than standard and the difference?

Well it might be enough to add 2 or 3 bhp at best per 100 bhp.

So your 105 bhp engine could get upto a heady 108 bhp given a super high cetene level.

This is what you wrote nigel.

"the reason that Manufacturers don't upgrade in the first place is that vehicles are shipped all over the world. Rather than tuning vehicles specific to one country, they're normally all the same. As fuel quality varies so much from country to country, they hedge their bets as to the worst. In view of the fact that many VAG products were tuned to 130 bhp, your Skoda will not present the slightest problem. If you have a reputable upgrade, they usually tune within the manufacturers tellerences anyway"

It is very inaccurate, considering all the internal and external differences one could find on the 1.9 VW engine.

Hope I explained myself a little better.

 

[Icemaker]

many on here will remember my 05 plate alhambra tdi 130, a fantastic car all round. however i purchsed what at the time was regarded as the best engine re map available for vw group cars, a dms re map module. the module increased power from 130 bhp to a claimed 172 bhp, i was pleased as punch with the upgrade as it did indeed give much better drivability and around 10 % better fuel economy if driven carefully, if driven hard the fuel consumption was horendous and much worse than the standard cars.

however i soon started to have problems with the dual mass fly wheel and clutch slipping in all gears if i even attempted to get a sprightly get away, having lots of research it soon became apparent that vw group and most other vehickle manufacturers where using duall mass fly wheels now and these items are usually manufactured with just a 5% tolerance of design.

cutting a very long saga short i ended up having a new fly wheel and clutch fitted under warranty (the dms module allowed you to remove the map and wipe the ecu memory so the manufacturer was un aware it had been used) but this too soon started to slip with the re map present, without the re map it was fine.

BUT the final straw came when i was coming home from wales with the van and the engine warning light came on, i called out the rac who told me the engine was over full with oil and they drained some out, this was strange as the car had been dealer serviced and i had checked the oil level prior to setting off. the same thing happened a week later so i took the car back to seat, it turned out the sump was full of diesel, the car had been over fuelling, seat could not understand this as the pump and injector pressures where correct and the compression was perfect of course they knew nothing of the re map. the car was serviced filled with new oil and given back to me along with a quiet word from the mechanic to get rid of it as soon as i could as in his opinion the engine was damaged and would not last long.

i know some have had no problems but do a google search on the subject and you will find that more and more people are realising the mistake of these products, my honest advice having been very lucky to get away with it is, if you need more power buy the next model up, its cheaper in the long run.

 

[NigelHutson]

Sorry about the manorism of my post Nigel.

Point is you are mixing up two entirely different issues.

You were/are assuming because there are different BHP levels on a same engine,and because the gap between them is close enough for a "claimed" remap to make up the difference,that they actually are the same spec of internals anyway.

That is wrong and misleading punters.Within reason a remap is OK, but fairy stories put out by tuners with regards factory limits and different cetene fuels is just that, they play such a small part certainly nothing like the 20% plus power grades they talk about.

There are up to 4 points difference between standard cetene and the ultima versions. adding something like millers can also add another 3 plus points. so now we could have as much as 20% higher cetene level than standard and the difference?

Well it might be enough to add 2 or 3 bhp at best per 100 bhp.

So your 105 bhp engine could get upto a heady 108 bhp given a super high cetene level.

This is what you wrote nigel.

"the reason that Manufacturers don't upgrade in the first place is that vehicles are shipped all over the world. Rather than tuning vehicles specific to one country, they're normally all the same. As fuel quality varies so much from country to country, they hedge their bets as to the worst. In view of the fact that many VAG products were tuned to 130 bhp, your Skoda will not present the slightest problem. If you have a reputable upgrade, they usually tune within the manufacturers tellerences anyway"

It is very inaccurate, considering all the internal and external differences one could find on the 1.9 VW engine.

Hope I explained myself a little better.

Me,

Thank you for your explination. You are quite right in that I was not aware of the differences between the VAG engines. I was basing my comments (and possibly wrong assumptions) on the BMW 2.0 diesel fitted to Rover 75's/MG ZT's, in which there were no mechanical differnces whatsoever to anything. The only difference was in the ECU software and a sticker on the driver's door pillar.

The original poster was obviously under the same impression too by the looks of it.

I would still think that even upgrading the 105 to approx 130 is likely to do little harm as there's usually quite a large tollerence in the Manufacturer's specifications, as I'm sure you'll be aware. The issue is a) who does the upgrade, and b) what is done with the car afterwards.

The reason that I have had the cars done that I have is for their "driveability". I'm not especially bothered about being the first away from the lights, or driving any where near flat out, but in all cases there's been much better throttle response and the torque (especially when towing) has been much improved. Being careful not to labour the engine because of the torque then as I've previously said, I've had no issues whatsoever with drivetrains etc (now touching copious amounts of wood!).

Once again, thank you for pointing out the differences between those particular engines. Just out of interest (and not intending to open a new can of worms), are there similar differences in the VAG 2.0 TDi which has even greater differences in output?

Nigel.