Ed China on EV potential rip off

[Dustydog]

This article is self explanatory.
Is it true or just scaremongering?

Former Wheeler Dealers star Edd China has admitted UK electric carowners could be overcharged by garages dealing with a common EV issue. The ex-host of the classic car restoration show and top mechanicsuggested that a welded contactor has the potential to even “write off” models in a serious blow.

A welded contactor means a vital EV component has been fused shut due to extreme current or heat. According to Edd, contactors are located “deep” underneath the vehicle, with garages likely to replace the whole batteryinstead of fixing the affected part. It could see road users end up paying up to £10,000 to fix the issue instead of just a couple of hundred pounds.

 

[Tobes]

IMHO it's neither true nor scaremongering. Garages will garage. There are those that will charge you for a new set of pads, disks and tyres when one tyre repair will suffice and there are those who will do what's right for the customer.

Now - having the right expertise to correctly diagnose and fix a problem is a different issue, and one that _could_ end up with this situation.

An example of the good guys. My son now owns my old 2016 Volvo V60 D6 PHEV. He was living in London in a flat an able to charge at home. Earlier this year on a trip to us we discovered that the AC mains charging no longer worked. We took the car to a tiny local independent garage who is a member of HEVRA (Hybrid and Electric Vehicle repair alliance). They diagnosed a faulty OBC (on board charger).

As he was planning to move house to a place where he can charge we decided it was worth getting fixed. The replacement new part from Volvo was an eyewatering £1000, plus labour + a trip to Volvo to have the part coded to the car - all in over £2500. At that price it was not worth it. However, with the local garage we found a company who could refurbish the origional part in 48 hours and have it back. The garage removed the unit, packed it up and sent it off, and refitted it 2 days later on its return. Net result £750, and a fully working charging unit, with a 2 year warranty.

The garage _could_ have recommended all sorts of work, but didn't, and the result was good.

 

[otherclive]

IMHO it's neither true nor scaremongering. Garages will garage. There are those that will charge you for a new set of pads, disks and tyres when one tyre repair will suffice and there are those who will do what's right for the customer.

Now - having the right expertise to correctly diagnose and fix a problem is a different issue, and one that _could_ end up with this situation.

An example of the good guys. My son now owns my old 2016 Volvo V60 D6 PHEV. He was living in London in a flat an able to charge at home. Earlier this year on a trip to us we discovered that the AC mains charging no longer worked. We took the car to a tiny local independent garage who is a member of HEVRA (Hybrid and Electric Vehicle repair alliance). They diagnosed a faulty OBC (on board charger).

As he was planning to move house to a place where he can charge we decided it was worth getting fixed. The replacement new part from Volvo was an eyewatering £1000, plus labour + a trip to Volvo to have the part coded to the car - all in over £2500. At that price it was not worth it. However, with the local garage we found a company who could refurbish the origional part in 48 hours and have it back. The garage removed the unit, packed it up and sent it off, and refitted it 2 days later on its return. Net result £750, and a fully working charging unit, with a 2 year warranty.

The garage _could_ have recommended all sorts of work, but didn't, and the result was good.

I’ve said on previous discussions on EVs that as they become more mainstream the motor industry will adapt to service and maintain them. There will be “indies” who know their stuff and have the right equipment. Also spare parts will become easier to obtain, non OEM, dismantlers, and as per your Volvo there will be companies that can refurbish parts. The thing these various suppliers need are sufficient parts, and work, to make their business viable. I suspect that at present most owners of EVs tend to use main dealers but just as with ICE market conditions will change to offer owners alternatives.

 

[ProfJohnL]

This article is self explanatory.
Is it true or just scaremongering?

Former Wheeler Dealers star Edd China has admitted UK electric carowners could be overcharged by garages dealing with a common EV issue. The ex-host of the classic car restoration show and top mechanicsuggested that a welded contactor has the potential to even “write off” models in a serious blow.

A welded contactor means a vital EV component has been fused shut due to extreme current or heat. According to Edd, contactors are located “deep” underneath the vehicle, with garages likely to replace the whole batteryinstead of fixing the affected part. It could see road users end up paying up to £10,000 to fix the issue instead of just a couple of hundred pounds.

Another click bait subject.

 

[Buckman]

Just like it cost thousands to repair a Jag if the oil seal between the gear box and engine failed. The seal only cost about £1, but labour was extensive.

 

[toad a caravan]

They may have taken a leaf out of the costs of caravan charges

 

[Dustydog]

Another click bait subject.

Like all newspapers and media TV programmes😉

The good news is this thread prompted Tobes to share his son’s experience . He gives me and others confidence that all not all reported EV failures are terminal👏sic😉

 

[ProfJohnL]

In every walk of life there are a mixture of good and bad. Historically the bad ones do arouse more press interest as bad news seems to sell papers - just think what that actually says about the buying public.

When ever new technology makes its way into mass market situations, there is a learning curve whilst established supplies of old, have to retrain to work with the products. This is where charlatans are likely to take advantage of the public's ignorance before the the trade has adequately realigned.

It is the case that customers should be wary, but that doesn't mean every garage trader is going to try and take advantage of the beguiled customers. It's not as sensational all these newspapers like to make out.

 

[Buckman]

The learning curve for making leak proof caravans is still on an upward trajectory after over 100 years! What chance do we stand with cars?

 

[otherclive]

In every walk of life there are a mixture of good and bad. Historically the bad ones do arouse more press interest as bad news seems to sell papers - just think what that actually says about the buying public.

When ever new technology makes its way into mass market situations, there is a learning curve whilst established supplies of old, have to retrain to work with the products. This is where charlatans are likely to take advantage of the public's ignorance before the the trade has adequately realigned.

It is the case that customers should be wary, but that doesn't mean every garage trader is going to try and take advantage of the beguiled customers. It's not as sensational all these newspapers like to make out.

Even with ICE cars there is a difference between a main franchised dealerships approach to repairs and service compared to that offered by good independent garages. Members on here use independents and have the flexibility to supply their own lubricants and other parts if required. As the market matures EV and PHEV will be no different, as Tobes son’s experience shows.

 

[borderbilly]

Don't think it will bother a lot of us on here ( age) + the state the world is in.

 

[Dustydog]

Three main things happen on my son’s Volvo Recharge service.

Replace the wiper blades
Rotate the tyres
Fill the windscreen washer bottle

Biannually the pollen filter is changed. Brakes looked at.

Maybe sealed for life is here now😉

 

[otherclive]

Three main things happen on my son’s Volvo Recharge service.

Replace the wiper blades
Rotate the tyres
Fill the windscreen washer bottle

Biannually the pollen filter is changed. Brakes looked at.

Maybe sealed for life is here now😉

Is that service cheaper than the Volvo service for the equivalent PHEV or ICE car. For my Toyota the full EV services are the cheapest (sic), then hybrid is more expensive. The equivalent ICE cars are cheaper than hybrids/PHEV. Obvious I guess given the two integrated power trains.

 

[Dustydog]

Is that service cheaper than the Volvo service for the equivalent PHEV or ICE car. For my Toyota the full EV services are the cheapest (sic), then hybrid is more expensive. The equivalent ICE cars are cheaper than hybrids/PHEV. Obvious I guess given the two integrated power trains.

No idea. But clearly more work and parts are needed on the ICE

 

[Buckman]

A dirty secret?

 

[otherclive]

A dirty secret?

Cannot read it as it requires a subscription.

 

[Dustydog]

Cannot read it as it requires a subscription.

If we had PM I could send you a screen dump. Or I guess I could ask a Mod to be the messenger? It’s an excellent article and not one to be ignored.
Fact is Border Billy is right 😎

 

[Buckman]

Cannot read it as it requires a subscription.

I will send it to you.

 

[Buckman]

If we had PM I could send you a screen dump. Or I guess I could ask a Mod to be the messenger? It’s an excellent article and not one to be ignored.
Fact is Border Billy is right 😎

There was quite an interesting comment;

The situation with gas power stations is more complex than indicated in the article. A combined cycle gas turbine station running continuously would produce power at significantly lower prices than are paid per megawatt-hour to wind and solar operators. But because priority is given to allegedly "clean" generators when their output is available the gas stations have to be shut down or have their output drastically- reduced. However, since their output might be required at short notice to cover the intermittency of wind and solar systems or short term increases in demand, they still have to be manned and maintained, compelling their unsubsidised operators to charge more for their output than would be the case if they were providing base-load power all the time. Low duty cycle operation of an asset, whatever it is, will always make the product of the asset more expensive from gardeners to aircraft, ships, industrial plants - and power stations. Even so, gas powered stations still provide about 40% of the total annual demand.

 

[otherclive]

No idea. But clearly more work and parts are needed on the ICE

Some advantages of EVs are now becoming visible. Lower servicing charges, only 5% vat on low overnight electricity rates, and fewer consumables. I think that as the cars move on to their subsequent owners other costs will be lower than for ICE, as ICE tend to be geared towards the first three years of ownership, and the more expensive items come later . Things like plugs/ injectors, discs/pads, belts, emission systems, coolant, Lubs, exhausts, etc should make pre owned EV quite attractive. But much depends on the future owners transport needs.

 

[otherclive]

There was quite an interesting comment;

The situation with gas power stations is more complex than indicated in the article. A combined cycle gas turbine station running continuously would produce power at significantly lower prices than are paid per megawatt-hour to wind and solar operators. But because priority is given to allegedly "clean" generators when their output is available the gas stations have to be shut down or have their output drastically- reduced. However, since their output might be required at short notice to cover the intermittency of wind and solar systems or short term increases in demand, they still have to be manned and maintained, compelling their unsubsidised operators to charge more for their output than would be the case if they were providing base-load power all the time. Low duty cycle operation of an asset, whatever it is, will always make the product of the asset more expensive from gardeners to aircraft, ships, industrial plants - and power stations. Even so, gas powered stations still provide about 40% of the total annual demand.

Thanks for sending me the article. It is a good read and does summarise many of the problems that confront the renewables industry. I guess the contracts to incentivise the installation of wind and solar power failed to recognise the longer term effects of “curtailment’ when they were first let. A fairly recent Government issue of licences for wind power had to be withdrawn as the offered rates were not deemed high enough by industry (commercial blackmail perhaps). In my post to Saxo’s thread on workers rights I mentioned the shortage of skilled staff affecting the industry particularly to install transmission infrastructure and grid interfaces. A good development will be the interconnecters running north south from Scotland to England. (Thank you Alba). Plus when HPC comes on stream the base load will require less gas generation. This is all going to take longer than 2030, but what the Government can do to resolve the long standing problem of ‘curtailment’ remains to be seen.

But the good news is that as I write demand is 31gw, renewables 77% and carbon neutral is 88%. Gas is only 8%. So it’s not all gloom and doom.

 

[Dustydog]

Thanks for sending me the article. It is a good read and does summarise many of the problems that confront the renewables industry. I guess the contracts to incentivise the installation of wind and solar power failed to recognise the longer term effects of “curtailment’ when they were first let. A fairly recent Government issue of licences for wind power had to be withdrawn as the offered rates were not deemed high enough by industry (commercial blackmail perhaps). In my post to Saxo’s thread on workers rights I mentioned the shortage of skilled staff affecting the industry particularly to install transmission infrastructure and grid interfaces. A good development will be the interconnecters running north south from Scotland to England. (Thank you Alba). Plus when HPC comes on stream the base load will require less gas generation. This is all going to take longer than 2030, but what the Government can do to resolve the long standing problem of ‘curtailment’ remains to be seen.

But the good news is that as I write demand is 31gw, renewables 77% and carbon neutral is 88%. Gas is only 8%. So it’s not all gloom and doom.

When do you think we will see a reduction on our home energy costs? We are still one of the most expensive in Europe.

 

[ProfJohnL]

When do you think we will see a reduction on our home energy costs? We are still one of the most expensive in Europe.

I think you may be living in a parallel universe, becasue I suspect we will not see any real drop in the cost of electricity, more likely a slow down in its rate of increase over a number of years, if at all.

 

[Dustydog]

I think you may be living in a parallel universe, becasue I suspect we will not see any real drop in the cost of electricity, more likely a slow down in its rate of increase over a number of years, if at all.

I was right. Border Billy was correct😉.