Elddis dont deserve praise!

[PBARTON]

I currently own an Elddis Odyssey 544 2008 model bought used in 2010 for £14000 from local dealer. Caravan has hardly been towed as as its spent most of its life on a seasonal pitch. Only just recently have we discovered a crack and a crease on panel near privacy window. Approached dealer for help but they say its not covered under warranty and the repair bill is £3000. Telephoned Elddis Customer Service and was shocked by their attituded.They were extremely abrupt and obnoxious and refused to help us. We were told that the damage described was in fact a stress crack and that these are caused by potholes! Politely explained that the van in question has hardky moved. Elddis then blamed previous owners. We are aware of other Elddis owners with same issues, seems to affect vans with privacy windows. Contacted my insurance company who have inspected van and they have rejected claim as its not accidental damage. We are having to pay £3000 for something that is not our fault. I am appalled by your attitude.

A caravan should be able to withstand potholes. This is not fit for purpose. ...

 

[Dustydog]

Sorry to hear you sad story

Clear material facts and evidence are what you need.

Go back to the Dealer and ask him for a detailed explanation of his views on causation with evidence to support his opinion.

Ask your Insurers and their Engineer for a technical report explaining why the damage was not caused extraneously,ie an unseen pothole.
I assume your caravan policy does cover accidental damage.

How did you pay for the caravan, part exchange, cash, cheque , credit card or finance?

If you can establish an inherent latent defect existed at point of sale there are a number of options open to you.

Do have any Legal Expenses Insurance that maybe able to help?

Once you have more facts please let us know.

There are a number of talented people on here who will give you some impartial advice.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello PBarton,

Its sad to read your report concerning Elddis caravans response to your enquiries, but as I have to point out so often, we were not privy to the conversations that took place or correspondence and we only have only have one side of the storey, so there could be other unrevealed reasons or responses that may be pertinent to the way you have reported the matter.

First and foremost it is important that you understand that your contract to purchase your caravan was between you and the seller. Unless you purchase directly from the manufacturer, they have no part in your contract, and thus they have no legal obligation to you. To avoid any uncertainty or becoming embroiled in this, manufactures may decline to even discuss any disputed matter with end users. All discussions should be directed to the parties of the purchase contract.

I mentioned "parties" in plural, as if you used a credit scheme, than under section 75 of the consumer credit act, your finance provider may also be jointly liable.

Does the seller have a case to answer?
Your statutory rights are assured under the Sale of Goods Act (SoGA). This requires sellers to ensure products they sell are fit for purpose and of merchantable quality. This applies to both new and secondhand goods and applies to the life expectancy of a product up to a maximum of 6 years (only 5 in Scotland) from the point of purchase.

However SoGA is a fair piece of legislation, and resolutions do take into account the age and relative life spans of products, so an older or second hand product is not expected to have the life span as a brand new product.

In your case the caravan is between 5 and 6 years old and consequently virtually time expired as far and SoGA is concerned. To have any chance of a successful SoGA claim you would need to obtain engineers reports or solid other evidence that an underlying fault was present when you purchased the caravan. Bearing in mind the age of the caravan I seriously doubt you will find any reputable engineer to put their name and authority
to such a statement.

For these reasons I conclude you chances of obtaining any resolution in your favour of being less than 1%

I know this is not the news you want, but it is only fair to be realistic in such cases. You could spend a tremendous amount of money trying to prove your point, with absolutely no guarantee of success. It would be better to spend the money on the necessary repairs and put the events down to experience.

If you do intend to take this matter further then you should seek professional legal advice.

 

[Surfer]

I seem to recall that someone else was writing about an Elddis caravan with a similar problem but maybe it was on another forum?

 

[Raywood]

I think the professor is right but it might be worth checking the other forums and see if you can find enough other postings to show there is an inherrent problem not I am not aware of any. You might also try seeikng if any of the papers will help you as these seem to gat things done that is otherwise impossible.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think the professor is right but it might be worth checking the other forums and see if you can find enough other postings to show there is an inherrent problem not I am not aware of any. You might also try seeikng if any of the papers will help you as these seem to gat things done that is otherwise impossible.

Even if there are lots of similar reports, at the age of this caravan I sereioursly doubt that anything can be done. The fact is that this caravan has provided sarisfactory service for at nearly 6 years of its life which will be taken into account if the matter goes to arbitration or court.
I know its a sad inditement on the longevity of caravans, but sadly this is the state of the UK producers who have a long history of products that simply don't last very long before some form of body repair becomes necessary.

 

[Dustydog]

I seem to recall that someone else was writing about an Elddis caravan with a similar problem but maybe it was on another forum?

you
You are right Surfer.
I read somewhere that creases and cracks above and around the main door were appearig after a few years use. Allegedly insufficient timbers in the frame was the cause. To the best of my knowledge Elddis made good the failure.
The OP hasn't told us anything technically. I don't even know exactly where the damage is.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I seem to recall that someone else was writing about an Elddis caravan with a similar problem but maybe it was on another forum?

you
You are right Surfer.
The OP hasn't told us anything technically. I don't even know exactly where the damage is.

Hello Dusty,
I agree, the details of the reported fault are very sketchy and limited to "on panel near privacy window" I assume the OP is refering to the bathroom window, but as I dont have his year or model of caravan I cannot be sure. Despite the further revalation that other Elddis models have apparently suffered similar symptoms and may have bee repaired by Elddis, due to the age and unknown history of the caravan I still stand by my comments.
I'd love to be proven wrong on this one.

 

[Surfer]

I seem to recall that someone else was writing about an Elddis caravan with a similar problem but maybe it was on another forum?

you
You are right Surfer.
The OP hasn't told us anything technically. I don't even know exactly where the damage is.

Hello Dusty,
I agree, the details of the reported fault are very sketchy and limited to "on panel near privacy window" I assume the OP is refering to the bathroom window, but as I dont have his year or model of caravan I cannot be sure. Despite the further revalation that other Elddis models have apparently suffered similar symptoms and may have bee repaired by Elddis, due to the age and unknown history of the caravan I still stand by my comments.
I'd love to be proven wrong on this one.

if the Op can prove an inherent fault this would be their on chance. BTW they stil have almost 4 years left under SOGA as the caravan was purchased in 2010 so well within the time frame.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi John and Surfer

Have you noticed we all go to a lot of trouble trying to help OPs but rarely do they give us any feedback.
Is it worth the bother I wonder?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi John and Surfer

Have you noticed we all go to a lot of trouble trying to help OPs but rarely do they give us any feedback.
Is it worth the bother I wonder?

In my mind it is worth the bother. Being a public forum the information provided may help the questioner, but it may also help to educate other readers who are just reading the posts and prevent them from running into the sameor similar issues.
Feedback is of course very welcome, and it helps to provide closure. But there can be a mirriad reasons good and bad why we don't always get it. So I don't persdonally hold that against them.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi John and Surfer

Have you noticed we all go to a lot of trouble trying to help OPs but rarely do they give us any feedback.
Is it worth the bother I wonder?

In my mind it is worth the bother. Being a public forum the information provided may help the questioner, but it may also help to educate other readers who are just reading the posts and prevent them from running into the sameor similar issues.
Feedback is of course very welcome, and it helps to provide closure. But there can be a mirriad reasons good and bad why we don't always get it. So I don't persdonally hold that against them.

Hi John,,
I fully agree about educating others and if it helps it has my support.

Just a shame we don't always get the full facts.

 

[PBARTON]

Sorry for late reply, im a paramedic and currently working 7 nights off the trot so unfortunately not had the time to check forum for any replies! Sorry if information was limited. The crack I'm referring to is around 2cm and is located just under the front seiz privacy window beside door. The crack also has a large dent which is now naked to the the visible eye. Elddis informed us stress cracks are caused by potholes. I have looked on other forums and have learned that it is in fact a common problem with vans that have seiz privacy window fitted.

Forgot to mention we paid cash/debit card for the caravan.

 

[johnandrew70]

I am glad its not just Swift that try to riggle out of things when the going gets tough, I do seem to think they employ the worst people ever to man the phones.
Buy German next time at least you can expect quality and you know that when you ring them they will be abrupt and rude because thats there manner

John

 

[ProfJohnL]

To help other Elddis owners to avoid similar damage if they should define what size, type and depth of pothole to avoid?

 

[Surfer]

Sorry for late reply, im a paramedic and currently working 7 nights off the trot so unfortunately not had the time to check forum for any replies! Sorry if information was limited. The crack I'm referring to is around 2cm and is located just under the front seiz privacy window beside door. The crack also has a large dent which is now naked to the the visible eye. Elddis informed us stress cracks are caused by potholes. I have looked on other forums and have learned that it is in fact a common problem with vans that have seiz privacy window fitted.

Forgot to mention we paid cash/debit card for the caravan.

Sale of Goods Act;

Key Facts:

1 Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This
means they must be as described, fit
for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time
of sale).

2 Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that
a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price
and any description. Aspects of
quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor defects, appearance and
finish, durability and safety.

3 It is the seller, not the manufacturer, who is responsible if goods
do not conform to contract.

4 If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale, purchasers can
request their money back "within a reasonable time". (This is not
defined and will depend on circumstances)

5 For up to six years after purchase (five years from discovery in Scotland)
purchasers can demand damages (which a court would equate to the cost of a
repair or replacement).

6 A purchaser who is a consumer, i.e. is not buying in the course of a
business, can alternatively request a repair or replacement.

7 If repair and replacement are not possible or too costly, then the consumer
can seek a partial refund, if they have had some benefit from the good, or a
full refund if the fault/s have meant they have enjoyed no benefit

8 In general, the onus is on all purchasers to prove the goods did not conform
to contract (e.g. was inherently faulty) and should have reasonably lasted
until this point in time (i.e. perishable goods do not last for six years).

9 If a consumer chooses to request a repair or replacement, then for the first
six months after purchase it will be for the retailer to prove the goods did
conform to contract (e.g. were not inherently faulty)

10 After six months and until the end of the six years, it is for the consumer
to prove the lack of conformity.

 

[Dustydog]

Sorry for late reply, im a paramedic and currently working 7 nights off the trot so unfortunately not had the time to check forum for any replies! Sorry if information was limited. The crack I'm referring to is around 2cm and is located just under the front seiz privacy window beside door. The crack also has a large dent which is now naked to the the visible eye. Elddis informed us stress cracks are caused by potholes. I have looked on other forums and have learned that it is in fact a common problem with vans that have seiz privacy window fitted.

Forgot to mention we paid cash/debit card for the caravan.

Hi P Barton

Looks like yours is suffering from a well known and well documented Elddis construction problem.

All the ones I have read about had cracks and ripples around the door area. I understand , but have no evidence of my own,that Elddis messed up and didn't put enough timbers in the frame.

 

[PBARTON]

Whats the best way forward in resolving this issue as I know my caravan has not hit any potholes. Crack has only just recently appeared and van has been on a seasonal pitch for over a year? Your advice is greatly appreciated

 

[Surfer]

Whats the best way forward in resolving this issue as I know my caravan has not hit any potholes. Crack has only just recently appeared and van has been on a seasonal pitch for over a year? Your advice is greatly appreciated

You do not state whether you are only looking for a repair or whether you are looking for a repalcement caravan. Do the preliminary letter to the dealer and send it by post for a signature in order to create a paper trail. Give them 14 days to resolve the issue under Sale of Goods Act as posted above. Request that all communication is in writing. If you have a telephone recorder, you should advise them that any phone calls may be recorded and used in evidence in a court of law. Keep it as brief as possible and preferably bullet point the items requiring repair. Give them the option under SOGA to repair, replace or refund.
If they still do not respond, send the dealer a "Letter before action" (LBA) giving them 7 days to respond and again sedn it for a signature. Please don't do any of this if you do not intend to follow it through to the end. If you keep us updated we can help you along the way although nione of us are lawyers, but just have the experience.
If you wish, post a copy of the letter up here first, but either way get that first letter off tomorrow. A very useful Consumer site is CAG and they can be found here. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?84-Welcome-to-the-Consumer-Forums There are also numerous templates on the site that can be adapted for your use.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Assuming you are suggesting trying to get either a repair or compensation, The only way you are going to get anywhere is to prove that either there was a design fault, or that the fault/damage was present when you purchased the caravan secondhand.

If either of these can be shown on the balance of probability to be the case, then your supplier is in breach of SoGA.

However again I must point out that when you purchased the caravan second hand some 3 years ago, Caveat Emptor or Buyer beware means that it is assumed that you had reasonable access to the caravan prior to purchase, and established to your own satisfaction that the caravan was in a condition commensurate with its age, and free from obvious defects. Your subsequent purchase affirms that contention.

Also that situation has remained the case for most of the time you have had the caravan, all of which increases the probability that no fault was present at the point of purchase, and what has happened has occurred since purchase.

SoGA relates to the condition of the goods at the point of purchase, so damage or faults occurring after sale are not covered unless you can prove the underlying reason for the fault was present at PoP.

If as Elddis suggest the damage is caused by driving over a pothole, the it could have happened the instance you towed it out of the dealers or any time since, the trouble is you cant prove it didn't nor can the dealer/Elddis prove that it did, so that will always be a quip-pro-quo issue.

This why it is so critical that you need to obtain evidence and why it will be so easy for the seller to add sufficient doubt about when the fault actually arose.

One of the underlying principals of SoGA is that the customer should not be disadvantaged because a supplier sold faulty goods, so even if you were to win, and the seller was directed to refund money, the fact that you have had 3 to 4 years of full service from the caravan means you have had considerable value from the product. so any refund will reflect the use you have had and age of the product.

It could be argued that SoGA's maximum six year time limit is inappropriate for a product such as yours because of its age, and the historical evidence of the likelihood of UK manufactured caravans having a limited life expectancy due to the uncontrolled way in which they are used.

I am truly sorry but I don't think you have any realistic chance of making a case for refund, replacement or repair.

 

[Dustydog]

John I am sorry but are you truly throwing in the towel after all that had been said on here by me, Surfer and others?

It is incumbent upon the credit card company, Dealer, or Financial loan company to say NO. Not us. We are the fighters and must see this through to the bitter end!!

Put simply this chap has either hit a pothole which has caused extraneous damage or he has a caravan which contains an inherent latent defect which has manifested itself within the six year SOGA timescale.

Rather then tell him he's stuffed why aren't we helping him??.

Well I am and I am confident with the track record Elddis have on his type of damage it is worth taking this case further.

As Surfer has pointed out quite clearly there are a number of potential resolutions open to him.

Ok if he loses so be it but let's not capitulate so quickly!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dusty,

As you know I am one of the first to try and support end users when supplier/sellers/dealers/manufacturer/finance houses etc try to take consumers for a ride. I am all for users utilising SoGA and other consumer protection law to get fair treatment. The key words here are fair treatment.

I am very sorry for PBarton, but we have to look at the whole picture, and what is a fair situation for all parties. After all SoGA is not about getting something for nothing or making unfair gain.

I have taken what I believe is a realistic view of situation given the information we've been given.

 

[Dustydog]

See this amongst many others.
http://www.caravantalk.co.uk/community/topic/29602-wall-creasing-and-cupboards-coming-away-from-the-roof/?&hl=%20crusader%20%20side%20%20panel%20%20cracking

 

[ProfJohnL]

Dusty,

I have enormous sympathy for Mr Barton's plight, and if I thought there was any real chance of a successful claim I would be encouraging him to do so.
Of the other posts you have pointed too on the other website, I didn't see any of them having been successful at obtaining redress from the dealer or the manufacture, and all of them are younger caravans. So what chance for and older second-hand caravan of nearly six years of age. The dice are loaded so heavily against him, dealers and manufacturers will be able to suggest at age it will almost certainly have encountered potholes rough roads etc, a claim that frankly cannot be proven either way.
I strongly suspect that if this single case was taken further and involved legal arguments in court, the courts would almost certainly be unable to find entirely in Mr Barton's favours and would almost certainly direct that parties pay their own costs. To mount a challenge of this type will cost several thousand pounds. which will almost certainly be more than the repair costs to the caravan.
I note Elddis's reply in the other thread, and that just loads the case against a positive result even more.

Whilst I know the situation sucks, but sometimes life is hard, and I would dearly love to be wrong in this case.

 

[Surfer]

There have been other complaints about a similar issue with ELDDIS which would suggest an inherent fault in the design or make up of the caravan. If this can be proved, then the OP stands a very good chance of winning in court.
Additional if the the OP took John's advice and did not bother with contacting the dealership, he will get nowhere. At least if the OP writes and follows suggestions, the dealer may come to a compromise. If you don't try, you will never know.