Don't be fooled by the low co2 reading of the lexus. Manufacturers are falling over themselves to fiddle that standard test criteria. Your lexus hybrid will be using as much fuel as any other similar size vehicle once out of town centre stop start traffic. You cant fool physics. In fact with the weight of 2 drive trains to carry plus the batteries I would imagine it'll be less efficient than most in real life conditions & especially when towing a caravan.
- Mar 14, 2005
- 10,094
- 913
- 40,935
I have been following reports on the RX400h in the Lexus furom and cannot find mention of any particular weaknesses of the car other than what you say - relatively high petrol consumption if you floor it. However, this is made up for by very good consumption in city driving, which is, after all, the majority of the driving that I do.
I'll report myself when I get mine in June/July. The local Lexus dealer told me that 80% of the RX's that they sell are hybrids.
I'll report myself when I get mine in June/July. The local Lexus dealer told me that 80% of the RX's that they sell are hybrids.
Well it seems like fatties are to blame for Co2 emmisions and global warming!
On our morning UK news round up of web papers we see that wonderful tabloid the Sun has a lead article
"Fatties cause global warming"
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2387203.ece
So if all the salad dodging couch potato lazy caravanners with motor movers and satelite TV addiction habits got of out and did a bit of cycling and aerobic activity the world world may be saved.
Family and friends are of out for the day now. On our bicycles! No BMI worries with this group of caravanners
On our morning UK news round up of web papers we see that wonderful tabloid the Sun has a lead article
"Fatties cause global warming"
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2387203.ece
So if all the salad dodging couch potato lazy caravanners with motor movers and satelite TV addiction habits got of out and did a bit of cycling and aerobic activity the world world may be saved.
Family and friends are of out for the day now. On our bicycles! No BMI worries with this group of caravanners
I undersgand that the 450 only uses the electric motor up to 8 or 10 mph before the 3.5 litre lump kicks in. No even on the rare visit and drive in London I get above those speeds.
Nephew just found this for me Lutz, based on the Prius but I believeI'm right that the Lexus us the same style of batteries.
"The Numbers
The Prius' battery contains nickel, which is mined in Ontario Canada. The plant that smelts this nickel is apparently nicknamed "the Superstack" because of the amount of pollution it puts out; the area for miles around it is a wasteland because of acid rain and air pollution.
But the main problem that the "Dust to Dust" study has with the Prius' impact on the environment comes next.
That smelted nickel then has to travel (via container ship) to Europe to be refined, then to China to be made into "nickel foam," then to Japan for assembly, and finally to the United States. All this shipment for each tiny step in the production process costs a great deal, both in dollars and in pollution.
The study then concludes that -- all the production costs in mind -- the Prius costs about $3.25 per mile and is expected to last about 100,000 miles. The Hummer, on the other hand, with all the same factors counted, costs about $1.95 per mile and is expected to last about 300,000 miles"
" The nickel for the battery, for instance, is mined in Sudbury, Ontario, and melted at nearby Nickel Centre, just north of the province's massive Georgian Bay.
Toyota buys about 1,000 tons (more now) of nickel from the facility each year, ships the nickel to Wales for refining, then to China, where it's manufactured into nickel foam, and then onto Toyota's battery plant in Japan.
That alone creates a globe-trotting trail of carbon emissions that ought to seriously concern everyone involved in the fight against global warming. All told, the start-to-finish journey travels more than 10,000 miles - mostly by container ship, but also by diesel locomotive.
But it's not just the clouds of greenhouse gases generated by all that smelting, refining, manufacturing and transporting that worries green activists. The 1,250-foot-tall smokestack that spews huge puffs of sulphur dioxide at the Sudbury mine and smelter operation has left a large swath of the surrounding area looking like a surrealistic scene from the depths of hell.
On the perimeter of the area, skeletons of trees and bushes stand like ghostly sentinels guarding a sprawling wasteland. Astronauts in training for NASA actually have practiced driving moon buggies on the suburban Sudbury tract because it's considered a duplicate of the Moon's landscape.
"The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants, and the soil slid down off the hillside," David Martin, Greenpeace's energy coordinator in Canada, told the London Daily Mail.
"The solution they came up with was the Superstack. The idea was to dilute pollution, but all it did was spread the fallout across northern Ontario," Martin told the British newspaper, adding that Sudbury remains "a major environmental and health problem. The environmental cost of producing that car battery is pretty high."
But of course, environmental devastation is a small price to pay for a pious gesture in support of environmentalism"
After the Nickel Hydride batteries get shipped back to the car production line the car then gets shipped to Germany from Japan or Canada!
Eco friendly, I think not Lutz! Even the RR or my Audi diesel are still likely to be far more eco friendly!
Eco friendly Hybrid?
Nephew just found this for me Lutz, based on the Prius but I believeI'm right that the Lexus us the same style of batteries.
"The Numbers
The Prius' battery contains nickel, which is mined in Ontario Canada. The plant that smelts this nickel is apparently nicknamed "the Superstack" because of the amount of pollution it puts out; the area for miles around it is a wasteland because of acid rain and air pollution.
But the main problem that the "Dust to Dust" study has with the Prius' impact on the environment comes next.
That smelted nickel then has to travel (via container ship) to Europe to be refined, then to China to be made into "nickel foam," then to Japan for assembly, and finally to the United States. All this shipment for each tiny step in the production process costs a great deal, both in dollars and in pollution.
The study then concludes that -- all the production costs in mind -- the Prius costs about $3.25 per mile and is expected to last about 100,000 miles. The Hummer, on the other hand, with all the same factors counted, costs about $1.95 per mile and is expected to last about 300,000 miles"
" The nickel for the battery, for instance, is mined in Sudbury, Ontario, and melted at nearby Nickel Centre, just north of the province's massive Georgian Bay.
Toyota buys about 1,000 tons (more now) of nickel from the facility each year, ships the nickel to Wales for refining, then to China, where it's manufactured into nickel foam, and then onto Toyota's battery plant in Japan.
That alone creates a globe-trotting trail of carbon emissions that ought to seriously concern everyone involved in the fight against global warming. All told, the start-to-finish journey travels more than 10,000 miles - mostly by container ship, but also by diesel locomotive.
But it's not just the clouds of greenhouse gases generated by all that smelting, refining, manufacturing and transporting that worries green activists. The 1,250-foot-tall smokestack that spews huge puffs of sulphur dioxide at the Sudbury mine and smelter operation has left a large swath of the surrounding area looking like a surrealistic scene from the depths of hell.
On the perimeter of the area, skeletons of trees and bushes stand like ghostly sentinels guarding a sprawling wasteland. Astronauts in training for NASA actually have practiced driving moon buggies on the suburban Sudbury tract because it's considered a duplicate of the Moon's landscape.
"The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants, and the soil slid down off the hillside," David Martin, Greenpeace's energy coordinator in Canada, told the London Daily Mail.
"The solution they came up with was the Superstack. The idea was to dilute pollution, but all it did was spread the fallout across northern Ontario," Martin told the British newspaper, adding that Sudbury remains "a major environmental and health problem. The environmental cost of producing that car battery is pretty high."
But of course, environmental devastation is a small price to pay for a pious gesture in support of environmentalism"
After the Nickel Hydride batteries get shipped back to the car production line the car then gets shipped to Germany from Japan or Canada!
Eco friendly, I think not Lutz! Even the RR or my Audi diesel are still likely to be far more eco friendly!
Eco friendly Hybrid?
He's on the same page as me in that hybrids are not the answer to total lifecycle emmisions & neither is taxing on c02. It annoys me to see small minded do-gooders swanning about in a prius when something like a Jag XJ probably has less of a "cradle to grave" impact to the planet.
Lutz
"Are you trying to tell me to wait until I can get a hydrogen fuel cell towcar"
With a Prius costing $3.25 a mile with a life expectency of about 100.00 miles I assume the Lexus will cost more and as the Hummer has a 300.000 mile life expectancy and a cost of $1.95 a mile I think Euro is suggesting you go for a Hummer ;-0 and be more eco friendly.
"Are you trying to tell me to wait until I can get a hydrogen fuel cell towcar"
With a Prius costing $3.25 a mile with a life expectency of about 100.00 miles I assume the Lexus will cost more and as the Hummer has a 300.000 mile life expectancy and a cost of $1.95 a mile I think Euro is suggesting you go for a Hummer ;-0 and be more eco friendly.
- Mar 10, 2006
- 3,274
- 47
- 20,685
Let me make it clear, i am not a tree hugger,or a fan of green peace.
But i would like clean seas, and rivers, and clean air to breath.
So as the oil is starting to become "short". Cars less reliant on oil, must be developed.
This leading edge technology is never going to be cheap, nor can you expect it to be fuel efficient from the cradle to the grave.
But i would like clean seas, and rivers, and clean air to breath.
So as the oil is starting to become "short". Cars less reliant on oil, must be developed.
This leading edge technology is never going to be cheap, nor can you expect it to be fuel efficient from the cradle to the grave.
"But i would like clean seas, and rivers, and clean air to breath"
No doubt the people around Sudbury and others in Ontario and Canada would probably like the same Ray.
They have a barren poisoned dead tree and no greenery wilderness caused partly by Toyota and Lexus owners pretending that they are eco friendly
I also do think a Hummer would suit Lutz
No doubt the people around Sudbury and others in Ontario and Canada would probably like the same Ray.
They have a barren poisoned dead tree and no greenery wilderness caused partly by Toyota and Lexus owners pretending that they are eco friendly
I also do think a Hummer would suit Lutz
- Mar 14, 2005
- 10,094
- 913
- 40,935
That should be accepted as a challenge by the car industry to develop new technology without burdening the health of the Sudbury population. Nevertheless, it would be interesting to know what percentage of the total nickel production goes into making batteries for Lexus.
I did hear that the new Li-on batteries will only last for 10yrs and will cost $4000 a time, also what about disposal of the dud ones.
I really hope these problems can be overcome, as the oil will not last forever.
Steve W
I really hope these problems can be overcome, as the oil will not last forever.
Steve W
The Sudbury plant has been producing Nickel for a lot longer than Toyota and Lexus have been producing Hybrids. It's a rather negative attitude to ignore that Toyota are adding to the problems caused by the plant whislt claiming to be selling greener cars no matter how much of the production they are taking!
The cost of replacing batteries for hybrids makes the cars next to worthless in only a few years. And who can say for sure how long the batteries will last anyway.
The cost of replacing batteries for hybrids makes the cars next to worthless in only a few years. And who can say for sure how long the batteries will last anyway.
- Mar 10, 2006
- 3,274
- 47
- 20,685
euro
i've got to say that you are talking utter rubbish, were i worked for 25 years, we use nickel, and chrome in mega quantities, in the making of stainless steel, we used it by the ton, at a time.
That was imported from europe mainly. I suppose now that we should boycott the kitchen sink?
i've got to say that you are talking utter rubbish, were i worked for 25 years, we use nickel, and chrome in mega quantities, in the making of stainless steel, we used it by the ton, at a time.
That was imported from europe mainly. I suppose now that we should boycott the kitchen sink?
Ray, you seem to have got the wrong end of the stick.
I did say that the Sudbury plant has produced Nickel for years, the nickel is refined in to it useable form for batteries by being shipped here and there, a difference from other processes that are not claiminng an eco friendly end product!
Please think and read before putting foot in mouth and making wrong accusations.
So how much will a 9 year old or so Lexus be worth when it needs 4k plus spending on batteries to see it to its final days. That's is if they last that long or if the motors are not worn out!
The Lexus is just not the eco chariot that you and others make it out to be Lutzand nor is the Toyota Pious!
The Lexus is just not the eco chariot that you and others make it out to be Lutzand nor is the Toyota Pious!
- Mar 14, 2005
- 10,094
- 913
- 40,935
Why should an electric motor wear out any quicker than an internal combustion engine? It has far fewer moving parts and is not subjected to similar thermodynamic loads as a petrol or diesel engine so it should last a lot longer.
Once a car is over about 10 years old, one can begin to expect expensive repairs, whether it is hybrid or not.
Without the urge to apply cutting-edge technology to the automotive industry we'd still be getting the fuel consumption that was typical of the 50's. What unpretentious family saloon car of that era offered anything close to 100bhp per litre and at the same time over 50mpg? Even the most optimistic have accepted that the improvements achieved over the last 50 years cannot continue at the same rate by staying with existing internal combustion engine technology. Admittedly, the hybrids of today are not perfect, but without the experience gained with these vehicles, a start will not be made. Someone has got to take the first step. An all or nothing approach is not helpful.
Once a car is over about 10 years old, one can begin to expect expensive repairs, whether it is hybrid or not.
Without the urge to apply cutting-edge technology to the automotive industry we'd still be getting the fuel consumption that was typical of the 50's. What unpretentious family saloon car of that era offered anything close to 100bhp per litre and at the same time over 50mpg? Even the most optimistic have accepted that the improvements achieved over the last 50 years cannot continue at the same rate by staying with existing internal combustion engine technology. Admittedly, the hybrids of today are not perfect, but without the experience gained with these vehicles, a start will not be made. Someone has got to take the first step. An all or nothing approach is not helpful.
It's been really interesting reading all your comments and thank you all for your replies. I am now very concerned about electric hybrid cars, and I honestly didn't realise that Canada is living with such a horrid lunar landscape because of the production of the nickel batteries, nor did I realise that the production of these cars involved so much global travel, I guess at the end of the day, the caravan industry must be very concerned because in the long term I cannot see how our hobby of roaming the roads with our caravans will be able to continue? What a horrible thought, we should be ok for a few more years, but the next generation won't enjoy the freedom to roam that we all grew up with, worrying times ahead. Can anyone think of a suitable tow car that can pull a 1500kg caravan, good economy, low pollution levels and hasn't ruined planet earth during its manufacture?
- Mar 14, 2005
- 10,094
- 913
- 40,935
I think Euro has been doing some unnecessary scaremongering here. As Ray pointed out so well, the amount of nickel used in making batteries is probably negligle compared with its use elsewhere. Following Euros horror scenario, one should not buy any stainless steel cutlery, either, as I am sure a lot more nickel goes into its production than into batteries.
I see hybrid technology having distinct advantages for motoring with highly fluctuating power demands and traffic delays; ie city/town motoring type application.
However it is only parasitic where sustained tractive powering is required such as towing; I suggest this is evidenced by its virtual non existence in lorries, tractors etc.
If you live in a rural environment and tow then I cant see its any advantage. But if you need it for urban use and towing is but a small % of its use then it begins to make technical sense.
Unfortunately the EU consumption/CO2 test is purely reflective of the short journey urban usage, but is being used to direct all domestic use automotive development. Its far too specific an application tool and dictates the direction of car development, probably therefore at the expense better technologies.
However it is only parasitic where sustained tractive powering is required such as towing; I suggest this is evidenced by its virtual non existence in lorries, tractors etc.
If you live in a rural environment and tow then I cant see its any advantage. But if you need it for urban use and towing is but a small % of its use then it begins to make technical sense.
Unfortunately the EU consumption/CO2 test is purely reflective of the short journey urban usage, but is being used to direct all domestic use automotive development. Its far too specific an application tool and dictates the direction of car development, probably therefore at the expense better technologies.
Processing Nickel for bsttery use is a completely different scenario Lutz. Toyota's Nickel is sent to Wales from Canada and then to China for further processing in to Nickel foam and then to Japan to be made in to batteries according to Toyota/Lexus.
The Sudbury problem and Toyota's part in using the plants Nickel and ecological problems has made major news stories in recent times.
There is some difference in processes for adding nickel to steel production compared to marketing a car as eco friendly when the cost to the environment form the batteries used is conveniently buried/hiddenas or dimissed as nickel is already in production.
A lot of questions and costings and research has been done re Toyota's Nickel Hydride Hybrids by the Eco lobbiers.
The FACT is that the Hybrids from Toyota are no where near as eco friendly as Toyota/Lexus would have customers believe. To claim otherwise is madness.
How can you consider buying a car partly on Eco concerns and then dismiss it's overly large environmentally damaging footprint just because Nickel is used in stainless steel?
Sorry Lutz, that is a very negative two faced attitude that too many claiming to be eco friendly use. They only see what they want to see and ignore what is hidden fron veiw.
The truth is that many diesel and petrol cars are overall cleaner than current hybrids according to industry insiders.
Lithium battery use may change that, but hiding the cost of the current Nickel based Hybrids is misleading.
The Sudbury problem and Toyota's part in using the plants Nickel and ecological problems has made major news stories in recent times.
There is some difference in processes for adding nickel to steel production compared to marketing a car as eco friendly when the cost to the environment form the batteries used is conveniently buried/hiddenas or dimissed as nickel is already in production.
A lot of questions and costings and research has been done re Toyota's Nickel Hydride Hybrids by the Eco lobbiers.
The FACT is that the Hybrids from Toyota are no where near as eco friendly as Toyota/Lexus would have customers believe. To claim otherwise is madness.
How can you consider buying a car partly on Eco concerns and then dismiss it's overly large environmentally damaging footprint just because Nickel is used in stainless steel?
Sorry Lutz, that is a very negative two faced attitude that too many claiming to be eco friendly use. They only see what they want to see and ignore what is hidden fron veiw.
The truth is that many diesel and petrol cars are overall cleaner than current hybrids according to industry insiders.
Lithium battery use may change that, but hiding the cost of the current Nickel based Hybrids is misleading.
At least the residets of Sudbury have a very lush and green Golf course to console themselves with at Idylwylde golf and country club , which is surrounded by arces of trees.
Amazing the club can exist if the polution is that bad. Or maybe its all artificial.
Mid you that superstack is some structure , Google maps even show it spewing its vile filth into the air.
Amazing the club can exist if the polution is that bad. Or maybe its all artificial.
Mid you that superstack is some structure , Google maps even show it spewing its vile filth into the air.
TRENDING THREADS
-
-
-
-
-
-
Surprised at lack of comment on caravan industry economic issues.
- Started by otherclive
- Replies: 201
Facebook
Twitter