Elldis/Compass 540 Towing instability

[Marco]

I have just used my new Liberte 18/4L (basically a 540) for the first time behind my Sorento. Whilst overtaking lorries I notied the caravan starting to 'weave' - not quite a snake but getting that way. I have towed a Coachman 450 for a couple of years & never had the slightest move from it. I appretiate the 540 is bigger & heavier but I am suprised by the wobble it had on 2 occations. The 540 has a winterhoff hitch & I have cleaned the pads as there was the slightest trace of grease on the top of the secure ball used with the lock. However, when grease got onto the Alko hitch on the coachman the noise was unbelievable & there was no noise from this hitch so I doubt this was affecting it.

In terms of packing - there are only two of us & hardly anything at the back (nothing in the rear locker apart from say a Kg of odd tools) & lots at the front & in the locker. I rechecked tyre pressures etc as well.

Any thoughts would be gratfully recieved on how to improve matters.

Many thanks - Marco

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Marco,

You may want to:

1. Check the nose-weight of the caravan - stability increases (slightly) with increasing nose-weight - be aware of the limits to your car and caravan. Exceeding the limit will reverse the stability gains.

2. Check loading of the caravan. Load at the front can be as un-stabilising as load at the rear. You may want to move heavy items over the axle - whilst maintaining a healthy nose-weight.

3. Check tyre pressures - but you say you've done this.

4. Grease on an ALKO hit usually stops the damn thing from groaning - the pads are very sensitive to contamination - and a bit of oil or grease stops the pads from working.

A working stabiliser (from the Bath Uni research report) is worth an increase in stability of 20%

5. It may just be aerodynamics - consider moving a foot or so over (away from the HGV) in the carriageway when you overtake

You may also consider a car roof mounted air deflector - these are meant to improve fuel consumption when towing - and they help smooth out aerodynamic effects from passing other vehicles.

6. Empty any water tanks before you depart.

Robert

 

[mike_5041102]

In addition to Rob's advice I suggest:-

increasing the rear tyre pressures by 5 or even 10 psi above the Kia recommendation, don't exceed the max pressure imprinted on the tyre wall

check the caravan is slightly nose down when hanging on the tow ball, nose up has a negative effect on stability

I wouldn't pin too much hope on a car roof air deflector, the turbulence may only make maters worse.

At what speed does the sway occur?

 

[Marco]

Thanks for both of your inputs. Being from an automotive engineering background I try to follow the basic guidelines on towing carefully. The coachman was rock solid even in higher winds & so the 'wobble' on the 540 was a big surprise. The 540 is some 20% heavier but the Sorrento is also a heavy vehicle with high nose weight capacity as well. A quick calc says that inc. the 2 gas bottles I probably have about 15kg in the front locker (fold up bikes (2x 15kg) go in the back of the car) There is very little else at the front internally (5kgmax). The kitchen, toilet & wardrobe are all within a couple of feet of the axle line & the AC unit above it also. Under the transverse bed at the back is a huge locker which I have a small (0.5kg) tool box in & there is a duvet on the bed!

The with the self levelling the resultant towing attitude on the van is also just about level - certainly not up at the front. I have now cleaned the Winterhoff pads just in case of oil etc on them, when the Alko got contaminated you could here the noise 5 miles away! (I have had none of that).

The problem occurred as I reached the front of the lorries. With the car just passing the cab I always could feel the front boundary wave - even on the last van. However this seems to upset the 540 & it gets into a cycle. Its difficult to judge but I guess the van moves a foot+ each way at the back & a cycle is a couple of seconds. Lifting my foot brought it straight back into line otherwise it would continue even though you were passed the lorry. I could not feel it as such in the car. Passing a lorry very slowly stopped the problem. However, I went passed one lorry at maybe 60mph whilst it was doing 50mph & I got another wobble.

I have towed the van three times & this is the first time I had the problem.(or noticed it!) The only difference on the way back from going on holiday is that the toilet holding tank had more in it but it is only a few feet behind the axle so I cant see that having an effect.

I have not tried increasing the tyre pressures but will give the air deflectors a miss as I have been loosely involved in aerodynamics before & & these things can do far more bad than good!

All suggestions still gratefully received!

Thanks - Marco

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Marco,

But you haven't measured the nose-weight of the caravan have you?

Saying that you've done a quick calculation is not the same as getting the bathroom scales out.

Why is this important? Because the caravan makers don't produce a set nose-weight - our Eriba Triton 410 almost balances on the main wheels when totally empty (nose-weight of about 5 kg).

When you bought your new caravan the "empty" nose-weight could be anywhere between a few kg and close to the maximum.

Robert

 

[mike_5041102]

with your background probably no need to mention- bring the nose weight up to 75kg (piece of paving slab in the front locker)

 

[Marco]

You are absolutely correct - I have not measured the nose weight & taking the van off the car when I brought it home it seemed lighter than the Coachman on the nose - about 35kg perhaps. Thus I have put more items at the front than the Coachman & could account with all the bits & pieces (15 + 5 at the front & kitchen equipment food further towards the axle) for say 65kg on the nose. I did think about filling the hot water tank as that is behind the front bulkhead (about 10 L I think -10kg!)

I understand that a nose weight of about 7% of total mass is recommended which is virtually impossible for many car/van out fits - 1500kg van = 105kg nose weight - way over most passenger car capacities. Explorer says that the max hitch weight is 100kg for the 540. Looking at it from this angle I am vastly under on my nose weight! Finding space for 40KG in the front of the van would be interesting.

I have mentally been through all of these routes already its just that the van behaved so oddly - its fine under braking, cornering & even side winds & even when it oscillates it's a strange effect. I have never experienced real snaking having only been towing for 3 years but have seen vans do it & seen the effect on the car. Perhaps the Kia's weight & the hitch helped me out & it could have been far worse! I simply don't have enough kit in the van to put even 20kg at the front. Explorer state about 200kg of additional items can be put in the van to take it to the top towing mass but I have AC/microwave etc + a mover that weighs 40kg! That all comes out of the 200kg The aquaroll would add nearly 40kg to the front but I would be concerned about finding something strong enough internally to tie 40kg down to.

Marco

 

[Andy_5077956]

Hi Marco

I tow a Elddis Avante 540 with a Kia Sedona which is about the same weight as a Sorento and I to was surprised how unstable it felt, especially when empty when they make quite a fuss about how good the chassis is meant to be.

I have found that the more weight I have in the car and caravan the better it tows, which is OK when I am going on a two holiday, but not so good when I only take the basics for a weekend away.

I find the way you load the van really makes a difference as you can tell when the gas bottle is full or empty. You will find with practice things will improve as I now run with a heavy nose weight and load as much as I can in front of the axle and as low as possible on the floor.

I have many issues with this van regarding faults and build quaulity, but that's another story.

I hope you have more luck with yours.

Andy

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Marco,

And I must now admit that I don't measure the nose-weight of our Eriba.

With the gas locker full (5 kg gas bottle and a Camping Gaz 907, plus all the wooden levelling blocks), and the awning and food (in a cold box) at the front of the van - I can still lift the nose with one hand.

Actually the nose-weight is 35 kg in that configuration - close to the legal minimum - and the 7% guidelines would mean it should be closer to 55 kg.

But the Eriba is totally stable - the Bath University research report indicates that stability will only increase by between 1% and 2% if I can find someway to add more weight into the nose - whereas the ALKO stabiliser increases stability by 13% to 15%

Robert

 

[Marco]

Andy,

Thanks for your observations. Can you give me an idea of what weight you put where? I deliberately left the rear locker empty, & as mentioned earlier, the only difference was another few litres in the holding tank (maybe 8L/kg's) which is a couple of feet behind the axle. Would you put the 2 fold up bikes in the front of the van/fill the water heater?

Please don't start me on the quality - I thought the coachman was not brilliant but this van !!!!!!!!! I had to take the door apart to get the blind to work - spindle jammed on twisted brackets too close together - a sink sitting up in the air because the structure underneath was cut wrong - taps that either have nothing coming out of them or fire water feet into the air (interested to talk to you on this one as I have a plan). The list of things I have resolved is extensive! Also - I am planning to make the wall thinner where the roller door on the toilet comes round. A Simple curtain then across to the wardrobe basically doubles your toilet space.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on packing in more detail if you could spare a few moments.

Many thanks - Marco

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Marco,

Caravan water tanks either have very few baffles or no baffles at all, so once the water starts moving - you will get quite a few kg of weight transference from side to side.

Probably best to either travel with the tanks empty or absolutely brim full - so there's no chance of slop.

Robert

 

[Andy_5077956]

Hi Marco

In my front locker I have, large gas bottle, wastemaster, wooden levelling ramp, box of chemicals, large mallet etc. Under front seat a large collection of childrens toys. Side seat, a tool box, foldings seats etc, as much as I can get in there. I put on the floor a microwave, TV, Video, empty Aquaroll and plastic garden furniture. I still put clothes in the wardrobe and in the rear roof lockers. I travel with all tanks empty.

I don't have the 'posh' door on the bathroom but a wooden door which folds right back, which is one of the things that actually works well.

I would be very interested to know what sort of problems you have had as I have now had to resort to contacting Explorer Group direct and told them what I think of their caravan as it has a delaminating floor and damp in the back panel to name a few.

Andy

 

[Andy_5077956]

Marco

You have really got me going now! I am replying to my own reply.

I think the main problem with stability is the length as I made a childs bunk to fit across the bottom of the bed on the shelf and the extra wait made a real difference when the van was empty, to the handling.

Before the Avante I had an old 15' Swift which you could chuck everything in and go with no problems, but it was much lighter and shorter.

I have gained a lot of experience towing empty, travelling to the dealers often.

I had a problem with my tap in the bathroom and I have had a new one fitted but it has got to go back again for a new worktop.

I hope you have been as pleased with your Kia as I have and just wished they would start making caravans as I will not be buying British again unless things improve.

Andy

 

[Marco]

Andy,

Thanks for your thoughts - we should form a club as you expressed my thoughts exactly! I had a few faults with my Coachman but seeing the dealer rectification work I decided (rightly or wrongly) that I was far better off fixing the problems myself! Having a background in the auto industry gives me access to all of the correct adhesives & sealants etc. I also took out the fridge & cooker on the 540 to fix another problem & that's when I found the batten that was cut too long & holding the sink up in the air. These bits of wood are not cut by Fred in the shed but are cut by computer controlled kit these days - one wrong - all wrong! When the cooker was out I found that they simply laid the cooker/hob loom on top of the unit & the std wires were down to the conductor where they touched the casing.

I am saddened by all of this not just for the reason that it is my van but for the fact that this situation harks back to the auto industry 20 years ago - an industry that is now all but dead in this country. If my Kia had a panel that stuck up in the air by design by 5mm it would not be acceptable - If my company had designed that panel we would get shot!

Do check the top marker lights on the back for water intrusion - I noticed one of mine had water in. The reason was that the clear & red lenses are vibration/hot plate welded & that seam cracks when you snap the lens onto the base plate. The water builds up & go's through the hole the leads go through. I ended up running a bead of sealant around the base plate as well as the workmanship was so bad that the water also ran down behind the plate. Drilling a fine hole through the btm of the lens helps as well.

On the towing front, I have everything you have in the front locker inc 2 gas bottles, but virtually nothing in the front lockers. The aquaroll, step & sat dish all travel next to the front seat locker but the Microwave is built in above the hob. Everything is pointing to more weight on the nose I think.

My van was second hand & the local dealer has given up with Explorer as he said 'I cannot get any support from them'. I tried to talk to their technical dept 2 weeks ago & I just got shunted from extension to extension as nobody answered. I will also be looking at European vans if there is a next time.

The Kia has been very good BUT ...the dealer was Brilliant but has gone down hill rapidly as their sales have risen - they just cannot cope & damaged it when it was in last time. That said, i drove a friends before I bought mine & two people who have seen mine have gone on to buy them.

Mark

 

[Andy_5077956]

Mark

Thanks for the tips

Sorry to keep going on, but I can't believe we are the only peolple with these problems.

Just a matter of interest but are you able to lift your front seat slats up for access without first having to lift the large side cushion up. My front seat slats were to long and passed under the side seat cushion and when you did get them open you could not release the rachet holding it up because the front seat cushion catches on the side window blind. This problem is just down to bad design.

Just a quick list of other faults for you to compare:

Gas regulator replaced 3 times

Rear back light did not work from new (connection fault)

Gas fire front falls off

Fridge mains plug falls out

Main entrance door opening off square at the top, door does not fit properly

Floor delaminating by the fridge (dealer told me this is normal)

Shower tray resealed twice

Damp in back panel below window (window removed and resealed)

Rear grab handle screws rust

Tap in bathroom replaced (needs new worktop)

This caravan is only 18 months old.

I am setting off for my main hoilday in just over a weeks time and if I remember I will check the nose weight and post it on this site for you to compare. I have checked the location of my nearest Explorer dealer for when the gas regulator packs up again or for any other event.

I must admit I did not realise the Explorer Group had taken over British Leyland and started producing caravans, but you are right british manufactures need a wakeup call before its to late!

Thanks

Andy

 

[Marco]

Andy,

We cant be the only people with problems. The front cushion in my van is just like yours - EXACTLY THE SAME. My general list is something like this..

Loose radio housing that did not fit the van in the first place

Ariel plug fell off lead to Stereo

A frame cover cracked down each front fixing because it does fit the frame - entirely the wrong shape!

Stress cracks in GRP front panel.

Front & rear handles don't fit onto panels properly

Front locker door very poor design - access bad.

Front cushion does not fit as yours.

All the front ducting fell off the mouldings as no retaining screws.

Reading lights don't work because the switches are useless.

Facia peeling of master control panel as it is a horrible adhesive label!

Water system pulses air & water - ANDY Do you have this problem??

Door blind not working due to brackets twisted & too close together.

Vinyl floor split over top of bolts showing through for spare wheel carrier.

Sink moulding in Loo came out of the worktop

Tap too close to blind to get Hot water.

Loo top hits shutter door when rotated

Door - terrible design. A simple modification gives a good dressing area

Shower corners need resealing

Shower tray area over wheelhouse angled down towards wall & not tray. Thus water sits there!

Cutlery draw inserts just awful..no other comment applicable

Wheels corroded

Jerky brakes

Jacks corroded

Sink up in the air

Cooker burnt through its own wiring.

Due to expansion on roof, mastic around top cupboards cracked away.

Water ingress around side marker lights

Water ingress around rear clusters due to lack of seal

I think that covers the majority of bits. Add to that towing instability....Please let me know if you have the tap/water problem. It happens on hot & cold & basically it seems to pump air & water until it clears through. I gets air from the taps I think.

I don't think I have the floor issues in front of the fridge & I have had it out as well.

Marco

 

[Andy_5077956]

Hi Mark

Yes I do have the tap problem, it stops feeding water then there is a gap then a massive spurt of water that makes you look like you have had a nasty accident going to the toilet.

Andy

 

[grahamr_5041507]

Oh, just picked up my brand new odyssey 540 on Tuesday!

Going out this weekend to test - really disppointed to hear your comments. I have noted that the tracked for the sliding door is split an dreplacement ordered plus two handles damaged.

Dealer only gave me one key and no handbook - didnt notice til afterwards.

Can you give me more info about the water ingress and the lights?

 

[neil_5067277]

I have A knightsbride 540 which is based on the Avanti.Owning the van for 18 months i have been quite pleased with the build quality and all minor niggles have been sorted by the dealer apart from a floor squeak near the heater.Caused by the furniture not a delamanated floor.

As for stability i tow my van with a Vx Vectra 1.9CDTI Sri and have never had a problem at all,Towing over 3000 miles.

I hope this helps.

Good luck with yours Graham.