Emergency Regulator

[Scouser1]

I'm now looking to have replaced my 2nd Truma (or should it be Trauma!) gas regulator. As these never fail at convinient times, I was contemplating getting an old style propane regulator and making up my own pipework as an emergency rig. I went to a caravan shop today to buy the bits, and apart from the fact that the man refused to sell me the parts once he knew what they were for, he pointed out that the red propane regulators are set to 37 millibar, but the Trauma ones are set to 30. Does anyone know what effect the higher pressure will have if I manage to find someone to sell me the bits? I assume the pipework will take the pressure (it should take at least 50% more than designed working pressure), but what effect will it have on the hot water/heating system and cooker, especially the oven, and the fridge? Are the jets designed for that pressure and will they work with the higher pressure? I have an Alde boiler,Cara cooker and Dometic fridge.

Thanks, Norman

 

[Guest]

Sorry, your post is a little bit confusing.

To try and clarify, if I can. In the 'good old days', before Europe, we had 2 pressures for gas delivery to our caravans. 28 mb for butane and a higher pressure of 37 mb for propane. This latter pressure was set because propane gives out less heat per unit than butane. All the gas equipment in your van will happily work on either. If your van is manufactured before 2004 then you don't even need to bother with a 30 mb system.

The Eurocrats in their infinite wisdom decided to standardise on a 30 mb regulator that would allow both butane and propane to be supplied to your gas equipment. This was designed to stop 'clods' connecting the wrong regulator to the wrong gas type. The fact that there had been very very few instances of this happening in over 40 years did not cause the Eurocrats any concern, after all a rule is a rule. However. if this 30mb regulator fails for any reason there is nothing to stop you re-installing either the 28mb butane, or the 37mb propane cylinder mounted regulator with the connecting low pessure hose as a 'get you home ' measure. You will have to remove the offending 30 mb regulator and re-connect a hose nipple and should of course use gas tape to ensure a correct seal. I state 'get you home' because although no fault will occur, the next time you take the van for a service, if it is manufactured after 2004 then the service dealer will try to tell you that you have committed a cardinal sin, and he needs to correct all your sins, for a lot of money, and re-install a 30 mb regulator and high pressure hose.

What I am trying to say, in a light hearted way, is that nothing is ever as 'black and white' as it might first appear. If you have a gas BBQ, patio heater, or even a picnic cooker then it is happily running on either of the old style regulators, as these have not changed.. All the dealers are still happily selling the old style regulators.

As far as failure of the new 30 mb regulators are concerned, this is evidently still a matter for discussion. In other words, no one is admitting liability. However, it does appear to be restricted to certain types and positioning of the regulator below the outlet of the cylinder does seem to give greater problems

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Scoucer,

Whilst I agree with what Scoth Lad writes, I must point out that despite the safety margin may cover pressures up to 37mB, your insurance will not.

By fitting a regulator whose operating pressure exceedes the pressure the system is type aproved for you are breeching gas regulations, and health and safety law - a criminal offence.

 

[JTQ]

Hi Scoucer,

My 2002 Hymer [i.e. pre 2004] has a bottle fitting 30mb regulator suitable for both propane and butane, therefore if you use one of these as your emergency unit the pressures will be correct. The unit will also of course be on top of the cylinder, thus correcting the reported major reason for the off bottle unit failures.

So I would look at what dealers of German [or probable other continental] caravans or Motorhomes stock.

 

[ThePlotter]

Scouser,I seem to recall that when this topic was raised at length a while ago ( might be worth searching the old threads)a get you out of trouble solution was to fit an old type reg to the gas bottle and from that rubber gas hose to the external BBQ point,turn off the regultor tap and feed the gas that way it seems that this works fine as a temorary measure.

 

[JeremyClarksson]

The plotter

I think that would have to be a real emergency measure and would require a warning to anyone who could have access to the BBQ point, little fingers particularly.

Imagine someone, even you absent mindedly, disconnected the supply to the bbq point, you would have free flowing gas straight into the awning. Chances are you would hear it, but with small kids it is not a chance I would like to take.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Scouser,I seem to recall that when this topic was raised at length a while ago ( might be worth searching the old threads)a get you out of trouble solution was to fit an old type reg to the gas bottle and from that rubber gas hose to the external BBQ point,turn off the regultor tap and feed the gas that way it seems that this works fine as a temorary measure.

See my response above

 

[Guest]

Let us try and clarify what is being discussed. The difference between 30mb and 37mb is 7mb. Now 1bar is equivalent to 14 psi, which is probably what most people can refer to. So 7mb is 7 thousandths of a bar or 7 thousands of 14 psi, which if my calculator is correct equals .09 psi. This is just under one tenth of one psi, which is I suspect irrelevant in most equipment. It just ain't built to that fine a tolerance. The matter becomes even less of an issue if you look at butane where the difference is 2mb. Now I have it in writing from a major dealer that using the old style regulator will not pose any problem in modern vans, in fact although all vans in the UK were supposed to be 30mb equipped after 2004, it wasn't until 2005 that the rules applied to European vans. I inadvertently fell foul of this rule as my first van was purchased new in 2004. The gas fitting in the locker was a hose nipple and I cheerfully connected up my old hose and regulator and used all the equipment happily for a season before finding out, through this Forum for one thing, that maybe I needed to check what I was doing. That was when I was advised by the dealer that I was not doing anything wrong. In my new 2005 van I have fitted a 30mb regulator and so far all is fine. Both vans had been supplied with a 30mb regulator I may add, but neither was bulkhead mounted. They were all cylinder mounted with low pressure hose.

I also, as a separate issue, question why the rule was actually introduced. Logic suggests is was to standardise things, but as each country in Europe has its own cylinders, none of which are exchangeable, and each requires its own connector and hose, and of course the rules are not retrospective then I am afraid standardisation seems to be as far away as it was before. Ironically the only currently interchangeable cylinders in Europe are the Camping Gaz ones

Now I am not suggesting for a moment that anyone should go out and change a 30 mb system for the older one, what I am trying to point out is that the original question in this post was in regard to a back up system in case of regulator failure, and in this case using the old system correctly installed will not pose any technical difficulties. If your caravan does go on fire I suspect that the cause will be from many things and the use of the older regulator will be way way down the list.

 

[JTQ]

The standardisation is in the use of 30mb for both Butane and Propane, rather than the earlier 27 and 37mb respectively.

This new fixed pressure means that the jets will for all intents and purposes pass equal masses of gas be it butane or propane.

However Butane has a much higher calorific value than Propane; 121MJ/cubic metre to 95, i.e. 27.4% more. So, using 30mb, you will have significantly more heating effect if you use Butane rather than Propane. [That is why I change in the summer, when using Butane is viable; more heating to the

 

[paul_5063654]

Hi scouser, i've got to have my second regulator replaced as well tomorrow no gas going through it again, the last one was only replaced a year ago i hope they replace it under warranty.I'm tempted to go back to the old style regulators as i never had one go wrong.

Paul

 

[mcghee]

The equipment in caravans did not change at all when the 30mb regulator was introduced. 30mb was chosen as the point at which propane or butane would work effectively without changing the regulator. If you think 7mb will make a difference go and stick a u-guage on the gas main entering your house, it'll read anything upto 28/30mb even though all home appliances are designed to run at 20mb.

 

[Guest]

There is nothing to stop you going back to the old system, however, it is unlikely a dealer will service your van unless the 30 mb system is re-installed.

I would also suggest trying a different manufacturer of 30mb regulator, it does seem to be one type that gives most problems.

I also accept that a bottle mounted 30 mb regulator would appear to be the ideal answer, however I believe that even these are to be changed because it is the hose that is the issue and the powers that be want all hoses to be high pressure types with no jubilee clip fittings.

 

[procterd]

I have just returned from a trip in my 2006 Conqueror which was cut short by the infamous 30mbar regulator on Propane fault. Until this trip I was completely unaware of this problem only found out about it when it was explained to me when I called the dealer for help!

Anyway, whilst the guy was explaining that they don't know who is responsible for the problem blah, blah, blah, he happened to mention oil being in the regulator. Now I don't know anything about gas regulators or systems and why oil should be there in the first place but I do know that oil thickens when cold and as the outside temperatures for the two nights had been around 5oC. and this problem happened first thing in the morning after working perfectly all day, it got me thinking, what if the regulator was warmed up a bit?

I decided to try something, I wrapped a tea towel around the regulator and poured boiling water from a kettle into the towel until it had soaked up all the water and then kept pouring it gradually until the kettle was empty, I left it for half an hour to warm through and tried the appliances again... HEY PRESTO! They all worked again.

In case this was a co-incidence we ran the gas appliances as usual all throughout the day and then at bed time went over to electric only heating. The next morning, would you believe? No gas again!! I didn't have time to try the hot water treatment again as we were leaving site to take the van straight to the dealers to have the regulator sorted.

This article is submitted only as an account of my experience as it happened and should not be taken as advice on what to do. Gas systems can be very dangerous and should be treated very carefully, if you are in any doubt call your dealer, they are the ones qualified to advise you one this subject.