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Jul 23, 2021
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Unfortunately the wind and solar farms are not free as someone has to pay for them and as this is the UK and on many occasions they are ineffective.
Of course they are not free- neither are combined gas cycle power plants or nuclear reactors or any other form of power generation. But wind and solar are undeniably cheaper per kW installed and kWh produced over their life cycle than any other form of generation.
Wind is not effective when its not blowing (and extremely rare occurrence accross the whole of the UK, north sea and surrounding coastline. Solar doesnt work when its night or cloudy. I have never know a tide to fail yet. Gas is ineffective when its too expensive or you can't get it because a foreign state turns it off.

Your energy bill is tied to the gas price, not the wind price.

The greenies have a lot to answer for when the country is not ready to embrace the green style they demand.
This not about lifestyle, or green choice, it's about energy security and cost. Wind power is cheaper and more abundant than gas and coal.

Apparently the break even point for wind or solar farms is about 20 years however by that time they need to be replaced. What do we then do with the junk from these places?
The break even for a new wind farm is about 10 years. They can be as low as 4-5 or as high as 13. They have a predicted initial lifespan of about 25 years. Thats initial lifespan, in the same way a new car has an initial life span of about 140K miles. Then you look to see what needs replacing and if it is cost effective to keep going, and do so.

The payback time varies slightly by project and the market price for electricity. Based on the latest UK Government electricity price forecasts (which don't reflect current high prices) the payback time is estimated to be around 13 years. If power prices remain high it could be as short as 4 or 5 years. Check out the calculator for a variety of price scenarios to assess your potential payback time.

What do we do with the junk? We recycle it. What do we do with the junk from any other industrial unit? What do we do with the junk from coal and gas plants? We let it escape into the air. What do we do with the junk from Nuclear generation? We hide it in disused mines hoping that no-one will notice and it will be fine until it's not our problem any more. Why do people fixate on the idea of wind turbines being so terrible for the environment? It's an entirely blinkered view.

Somehow I doubt if all the current wind farms and solar farms can generate enough power for all the large bakeries in one day as they are big consumers of electric amongst other places. I wonder if the greenies will be happy to go without bread if there is no wind or sunshine for days on end? :ROFLMAO:
Current installed capacity of Wind in the UK - 47.8 GW
Current installed capacity of Combined gas cycle turbine plants in the UK - 31.8 GW

Peak demand in the UK in the last year 35.5 GW.

Ironically, if you got rid of gas, your bakery would not have enough power. With renewables, it might.

Total provision of renewable energy in the UK in 2020 (excluding Nuclear) 43.2%
Total provision of Fossil energy in the UK in 2020 39%
Total provison of Nuclear in the UK in 2020. 16.1%


We should have more nuclear stations for generation of power as we do not have enough in the UK which is why we have to im port electric from France and other countries.
Building a new Nuclear plant takes about 30 years.
Building a new windfarm takes about 2 years .
How long do you want to wait?
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Unfortunately the wind and solar farms are not free as someone has to pay for them and as this is the UK and on many occasions they are ineffective. The greenies have a lot to answer for when the country is not ready to embrace the green style they demand.
Apparently the break even point for wind or solar farms is about 20 years however by that time they need to be replaced. What do we then do with the junk from these places? Somehow I doubt if all the current wind farms and solar farms can generate enough power for all the large bakeries in one day as they are big consumers of electric amongst other places. I wonder if the greenies will be happy to go without bread if there is no wind or sunshine for days on end? :ROFLMAO:
We should have more nuclear stations for generation of power as we do not have enough in the UK which is why we have to im port electric from France and other countries.
I would think that the recycling of a wind turbine is relatively easy given the very low quantity of environmental pollutants in a turbine. Probably limited to lubricants and hydraulic fluids. Compare that to remediation of a coal mine, but even there many old mines have been remediated to become attractive leisure and wildlife areas. Cleaning up after oil especially off shore oil isn’t easy but it can be done successfully at a cost. Large quantities of oil contained in pipelines or FPSO plus the complex task of removing the topsides structures. Cromarty is full of these things requiring dismantling. I recall the uproar when a very professional company ,Able U.K., won a contract to dismantle and recycle a number of old US Navy tankers. In the end the public uproar won and Able didn’t deal with all of the ships. A loss to UK Plc. But it beggars the question as to where do surplus oil tankers go to be scrapped? The answer is that they often get run up onto a beach in Asia and pollute someone’s else’s backyard, whilst risking injury, death or illness to workers desperate for a wage to survive on.
 
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Jul 23, 2021
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I presume that assertion is based on including any incentives that were gifted to the green energy generators?
I recall G Brown introduced some scheme where a financial incentive was given to generators, and to home feed in providers; the words I remember being to the effect that "the UK energy costing us 35% more than others was a price well worth paying".
That might be true but is it also true to say going green is saving us cost, yet?
The assertion is based on governmental study, which looks at raw costs, not incentivised costs.

According to Forbes, the US government agrees.


I.e. Green energy is cheaper than fossil.
 
Jul 23, 2021
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Thanks Tobes for an informative post seen through rose tinted specs. Made my day as have not had a good laugh in a long time. LOL!
I am not sure what is so funny? The assertion that green energy is cheaper (it just is)? Or that rising fossil fuel costs are what are making your bills more expensive (they are)? Or that with the right investment in green energy generation and storage, we can have our cake (low cost energy) and eat it (energy security), while achieving a lower carbon output as a side benefit.

I was under the impression you wanted lower, more predictable energy bills, green or not? This is a way to get them.
 
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Mar 14, 2005
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The large gas storage that Centrica closed down on safety and upkeep grounds wasn’t economically viable given that at the time gas and LNG costs were so low. The other companies were not prepared to contribute to its renewal, and HMG rejected a request for Government support. There are some elements of infrastructure that are best coordinated at a strategic level by government. But the good news is that there still seems to be no shortage of gas or oil…….it’s just expensive.
Not quite on thread, but I did come across this which might be of interest:-

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceWZslOfEjs
 
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Mar 17, 2020
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Ok Call me a simpleton but......................!

Quote (almost!), "lower the bomb, plug up the hole so nowt comes out and detonate. Just a slight tremor at ground level and a few birds disturbed."

I don't get it.

Where did the millions of tons and thousands of cubic feet of earth go to create the cavern?

Vaporised with no residue?
 
Jun 20, 2005
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The government in their infinite wisdom are about to introduce a windfall tax because energy companies have made record profits recently.
The windfall tax will be used to fund government help with high fuel bills for people.
So the government are taking money from energy suppliers to give to us who will then give it back to energy suppliers.
Is it me, am I missing something here? 🙄
You’ve missed nothing. The whole situation is wallpapering over the cracks. The eye was taken off the ball long before Green stuff reared it’s head. I’ve seen perfectly good coal fired power stations closed, Didcot. Nuclear power stations decommissioned. No further investment in long term generation pending Inam told green energy is “available” . Not enough, too little too soon . So Parksy you are spot on👏
 
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Nov 11, 2009
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You’ve missed nothing. The whole situation is wallpapering over the cracks. The eye was taken off the ball long before Green stuff reared it’s head. I’ve seen perfectly good coal fired power stations closed, Didcot. Nuclear power stations decommissioned. No further investment in long term generation pending Inam told green energy is “available” . Not enough, too little too soon . So Parksy you are spot on👏
To add to the angst Hinckley Point B will shut down its reactors in July and August, and EDF have advised that they will not be submitting a safety case to the Nuclear Regulator for a six month extension, as the time has passed. It has already been extended. Also two of countries remaining three coal fired stations are due to start closing in September but these may be extended as no safety case to the Nuclear Inspectorate is required, but the operators still have their obligations in law and to their insurers. The third in NI is being converted to run on gas and may not be available this winter.
 
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Mar 14, 2005
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We presently have double whammy where the cost of energy is rising, but also the damage to the environment by continuing with the fossil fuel systems which far more polluting than some of the alternatives.

I have previously advocated that to be able to make fair comparisons between fuel types and their environmental impacts should be done on a whole life basis and must include the impact of the construction, use and decommissioning. I haven't had the time or access to the necessary information sources to do a comprehensive analysis, but now I don't have to becasue some other very erudite institutions have done it.

You might find this informative.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNHe-lQrrOs
 
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Jul 23, 2021
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Jun 20, 2005
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An interesting scientific take, probably 30 years ahead of its time.
With major war zones in the Ukraine, fuel costs for all rising to unaffordable levels, common sense tells me it is far too early to consider abandonment of fossil fuels. The U.K. has the resources to become totally self sufficient thus reducing our energy costs. Once that situation is stabilised, then yes I’ll go with clean energy but not at the expense of a lot of citizens going hungry and cold. One thing puzzles me. Even EVs need oils and grease for lubrication. Even synthetics require crude oil😉.
Maybe in 30 years time things will be fossil fuel free but I just can’t see it happening in the near future.
I‘m off on Friday burning my precious diesel for a well earned few weeks exploring the delights of North Devon👍🍺🍺
 
Jul 23, 2021
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An interesting scientific take, probably 30 years ahead of its time.
With major war zones in the Ukraine, fuel costs for all rising to unaffordable levels, common sense tells me it is far too early to consider abandonment of fossil fuels. The U.K. has the resources to become totally self sufficient thus reducing our energy costs. Once that situation is stabilised, then yes I’ll go with clean energy but not at the expense of a lot of citizens going hungry and cold. One thing puzzles me. Even EVs need oils and grease for lubrication. Even synthetics require crude oil😉.
Maybe in 30 years time things will be fossil fuel free but I just can’t see it happening in the near future.
I‘m off on Friday burning my precious diesel for a well earned few weeks exploring the delights of North Devon👍🍺🍺
Which bit is ahead of its time DD? Accelerating our deployment of low carbon cost generation to reduce the cost of electricity and protect our supply seems to be exactly the right thing to do now? Transitioning the grid to offer differential grid costs for green and dirty electricity seems sensible too, if it allows folks to make a choice of when and they consume resources.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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An interesting scientific take, probably 30 years ahead of its time.
With major war zones in the Ukraine, fuel costs for all rising to unaffordable levels, common sense tells me it is far too early to consider abandonment of fossil fuels. The U.K. has the resources to become totally self sufficient thus reducing our energy costs. Once that situation is stabilised, then yes I’ll go with clean energy but not at the expense of a lot of citizens going hungry and cold. One thing puzzles me. Even EVs need oils and grease for lubrication. Even synthetics require crude oil😉.
Maybe in 30 years time things will be fossil fuel free but I just can’t see it happening in the near future.
I‘m off on Friday burning my precious diesel for a well earned few weeks exploring the delights of North Devon👍🍺🍺
What we motorist calls "synthetic" oil is as you say based on oil, but there are true synthetic oils and greases too that do not use fossil based oil. But even if oils and greases were to be based on fossil oil the world usage would be insignificant compared to burning the stuff as fuels. But surely the time taken to become UK self sufficient in in "is it oil or gas?" would be running in parallel with the increasing sources of renewables that generate electricity. With increased electrical capacity the UK would be moving away from a global prices that effect oil and gas and hence electric, and then be able to move to lower energy costs for the country.
 
Jun 20, 2005
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Which bit is ahead of its time DD? Accelerating our deployment of low carbon cost generation to reduce the cost of electricity and protect our supply seems to be exactly the right thing to do now? Transitioning the grid to offer differential grid costs for green and dirty electricity seems sensible too, if it allows folks to make a choice of when and they consume resources.
Tobes the whole concept of abandoning fossil fuels now and by 2030 is too soon imo. The current economic climate, poverty , inflationary wages, increasing taxation, increasing taxes is I am sad to say pushing green progress back. If only we had kept some of our coal and nuclear power stations , just another ten years, we wouldn’t be at the mercy of others outside the U.K. Plus sorry to say it a considerable number of our population couldn’t afford to buy an EV at the moment. I have said it before, it’s all about timing and the economy being put back on a steady footing. NOT about castigating green energy😉.It must be made easily affordable for all which today it isn’t.
 
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Jun 20, 2005
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What we motorist calls "synthetic" oil is as you say based on oil, but there are true synthetic oils and greases too that do not use fossil based oil. But even if oils and greases were to be based on fossil oil the world usage would be insignificant compared to burning the stuff as fuels. But surely the time taken to become UK self sufficient in in "is it oil or gas?" would be running in parallel with the increasing sources of renewables that generate electricity. With increased electrical capacity the UK would be moving away from a global prices that effect oil and gas and hence electric, and then be able to move to lower energy costs for the country.
I see that Clive . When do you think that will happen for everyone?
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Tobes the whole concept of abandoning fossil fuels now and by 2030 is too soon imo. The current economic climate, poverty , inflationary wages, increasing taxation, increasing taxes is I am sad to say pushing green progress back. If only we had kept some of our coal and nuclear power stations , just another ten years, we wouldn’t be at the mercy of others outside the U.K. Plus sorry to say it a considerable number of our population couldn’t afford to buy an EV at the moment. I have said it before, it’s all about timing and the economy being put back on a steady footing. NOT about castigating green energy😉.It must be made easily affordable for all which today it isn’t.
I haven't seen anything that requires the UK to abandon fossil fuel by 2030. Not even HMG on a bad day have shared that gem with us. :unsure:
 
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Nov 11, 2009
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I see that Clive . When do you think that will happen for everyone?
Difficult one to call but things are moving on apace, which often don't get reflected in the media. But are you considering UK, the developed nations or the world? There will be different speeds for all Im sure, and its impossible to put a definitive timescale on it that's why the COP summits are so valuable as one of the outputs is an audit of progress, against predictions and promises.
 
Jul 23, 2021
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Tobes the whole concept of abandoning fossil fuels now and by 2030 is too soon imo. The current economic climate, poverty , inflationary wages, increasing taxation, increasing taxes is I am sad to say pushing green progress back. If only we had kept some of our coal and nuclear power stations , just another ten years, we wouldn’t be at the mercy of others outside the U.K. Plus sorry to say it a considerable number of our population couldn’t afford to buy an EV at the moment. I have said it before, it’s all about timing and the economy being put back on a steady footing. NOT about castigating green energy😉.It must be made easily affordable for all which today it isn’t.
Abandoning fossil fuel and moving from a fossil based electricity generation to a renewable based system are different things. There is no reason at all to go all in on renewable generation installation now, re-invigorate the insulation for homes program and push for an electricity industry that is lower cost to generate, not dependent on global gas prices for peak generation and not dependent on foreign import that can be held to ransom.

Just to be clear, much of the poverty, inflationary pressure, and increase in costs is down to the cost of fossil fuel. If we had the possibility to remove the increase in base cost of energy from the base cost of gas and oil, prices for transport, manufacturing and commodities could be independent of gas prices, not tied to them.

Continuing to march toward a 2030 date for the end of sale of combustion engines makes complete sense if the cost and insecurity of supply of oil is increasing, and the cost of electricity generation and dependence on foreign import of energy is decreasing. Sure - we have not yet reach price parity for new electric vehicles and new combustion vehicles, but its pretty close. The used market will continue to be what it is, following the new market.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Abandoning fossil fuel and moving from a fossil based electricity generation to a renewable based system are different things. There is no reason at all to go all in on renewable generation installation now, re-invigorate the insulation for homes program and push for an electricity industry that is lower cost to generate, not dependent on global gas prices for peak generation and not dependent on foreign import that can be held to ransom.

Just to be clear, much of the poverty, inflationary pressure, and increase in costs is down to the cost of fossil fuel. If we had the possibility to remove the increase in base cost of energy from the base cost of gas and oil, prices for transport, manufacturing and commodities could be independent of gas prices, not tied to them.

Continuing to march toward a 2030 date for the end of sale of combustion engines makes complete sense if the cost and insecurity of supply of oil is increasing, and the cost of electricity generation and dependence on foreign import of energy is decreasing. Sure - we have not yet reach price parity for new electric vehicles and new combustion vehicles, but its pretty close. The used market will continue to be what it is, following the new market.
But 2030 to 2035 allows the continuing sale of ICE in cars with hybrid systems. However most makers seem to be planning to be all electric for their European sales by 2030 with some targeting 2025 onwards. But the makers will doubtless be making hybrids and possibly ICE for sale in other parts of the world. Where those cars are actually made remains to be seen. EG Toyota have announced a large investment in an engine factory in the USA.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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.... the whole concept of abandoning fossil fuels now and by 2030 is too soon imo. ...
I don't know any reasonable person who has ever suggested the complete abandonment of fossil fuels by 2030. the action taken in the UK is only to stop the sale of new small ICE vehicles in 2030. We all know from our own experiences that a car may well have a working life of up to 20 years or more before it's finally retired, so realistically it's going to take several decades beyond 2030 before we stop seeing fossil fueled cars on our roads.

In addition there will still be certain classes of vehicles and other equipment that will continue to be sold where fossil fuels are the only practical energy source. For those and other reasons we will continue to see some forms of fossil fuels available probably beyond 2100.

The aim of the process is to reduce the burning of fossil fuels, to reduce the quantities of CO2 and other pollutants that are driving climate change.

Many different products are sourced from fossil derived oils, including many lubricants, but these do not pose the same climate change issues for two main reasons, Firstly they tend to be produced in much smaller quantities than fuel for burning , and secondly unless they are burnt they don't release their carbon content into the atmosphere.

However burning the fuels is not the only part of the problem, actually the process of extraction and refining refining producing the fossil fuel also uses a lot of energy, and if we can step back from our need for fossil fuels we can also gain the benefits of not using as much energy to produce the fuel and other products we do need.
 
Jun 20, 2005
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In 2000 we had 12 fully functional refineries. Today we are down to 6 and a very minor small one. Consequently we no longer have the ability to refine crude oil to meet the current demands. My views are irrelevant but it has to be asked why such reduction in our own refining capability has been allowed? Being dependent on parties outside of the UK is not a good thing in the current world climates.
 
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