FAO Doug King

[Parksy]

Hi Doug In december's PCV you answered a readers letter advising they could use a trolley jack to lift the caravan.
I used this method which resulted in a catastrophe and could have killed me.
Please see this thread and photos.
http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/technical/al-ko-jacking-stiffener-plates-catastrophy

The general technical conclusion was that a trolley jack doesn't work safely on caravan jack points. To get it under the axle is nigh impossible and even then very hard to work the jack handle. The scissor jack supplied by Al-ko is impossible to use on my TA unless you have popeye muscles!

Thanks,
I'd hate any of our readers to get hurt.

 

[RogerL]

The bolt-on jacking points are intended for use solely with the Alko sidelift jack, available from Alko or OE on a few caravans - they are not intended, nor suitable, for use with a trolley jack.
A trolley jack should only be used on the axle tube next to the end plate or the end plate itself.
It's also best to have the caravan hitched up, eg to the car, to prevent it rotating and falling off the jack - got the T-shirt on that one!

 

[JTQ]

The scissor jack supplied by Al-ko is impossible to use on my TA unless you have popeye muscles!

[If using for punctures rather than spinning wheels for Al-Ko lock positioning.]
For those
using a scissor jack or a half scissor jack, can I repeat some very useful
advice?

These have a poor mechanical advantage in the
swat position thus finding the need for Popeye muscles plus extra stain on the
jack itself.

To counter this and work the jack in a more
extended state it is very beneficial to first lift the van.

This can be archived using the tow vehicle to
tow the stricken wheel up a ramp or similar.

Tow up your
levelling ramp or even tow up onto your spare wheel if you have nothing else to
hand able to take the weight.

By doing so
you will lift the chassis and can get the jack into a very much better state of
extension greatly easing the effort needed.

You can
where that wretched under slung wheel carrier is used better access that,
obviously using ramps etc not the spare.

I carry an
off cut of scaffold plank and use this with my levelling blocks.

 

[NigelDonnelly]

Good points made here. Will put it to Doug and let you know his responses...

Cheers

 

[DerekBrad]

I modified the "cup" of my trolley jack. I welded a small bar across the head of a bolt which fits into the hole in the jack's cup. The bar fits snugly up into the side bracket on my van. It works.If I could remember how to post a pic, I would do!

 

[Dustydog]

Derek
The problem still remains no matter what "cup " you weld to the jack.
If the wheels of the trolley jack can't move such as on grass or gravel then the jack is trying to pull away from the Al-ko bracket leading to the failure I suffered.

 

[emmerson]

You could carry a long flat board to run the jack on, but that would be abit ott.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

Good points made here. Will put it to Doug and let you know his responses...

Cheers

hi Nigel, perhaps practical caravan could do a article on this. being practical and safety wise and all that??.
put a Caravan on grass let the tyre down and see which method is best for wheel changing, would be intresting to see how the staff come up some ingenious method given that most only have the basic type of kit available and would find the senario very risky,

 

[Gybe]

Using Cilla's saying.
I'm "GOB SMACKED" by this forum yet again. These posts and the post on the first posts link are real eye openers.

"Just imagine if I had been under the caravan at the time!!"

Serious. What kind of comment is that? Would anyone here really get underneath a caravan that is just held up on a jack? Jacking the van using a stiffener plate??? If it collapsed I would say it was your own fault for not thinking or checking that you are using a suitable jacking point with the jack you are using.
There is a pretty good chance that we will all end up jacking up a caravan on site at some time and you could easilly be on grass or a surface where a jack will sink in. First proiority should be to have some way of having a suitable surface for the jack rather than a trolley jack that is likely to be useless on soft ground. Do caravanners really drag weighty trolley jacks around with them?
Practical and Caravan doesn't seem to gell together with many caravanners it would seem

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Gybe,
Having been involved with a major supplier to the caravan industry I know only too well that some caravanners really do not understand some basic safety issues across a number of disciplines.
Caravanners are drawn from a wide range of experiences and backgrounds, consequently not everyone has the same technical understanding of the implicit dangers of activities such as using jacks, Mains power, and gas etc. and what might be obvious for you or I, is not always as plain to everyone.
In matters of safety, even seasoned professionals in all walks of life can sometimes forget protocols, which is one reason why these days CPD is valued very highly and one reason why Gas and Electrical tickets need to be regularly re-assessed.
Practical Caravan Magazine, and this forum endeavour to make caravanning both accessible and safe by providing what sometimes may seem to some very basic advice. To the less well informed it might be a life saver.
I think it would be a sad day if such advice was prevented from being given lest it might upset a few who already (think) they know it.

 

[Parksy]

Using Cilla's saying.
I'm "GOB SMACKED" by this forum yet again. These posts and the post on the first posts link are real eye openers.

"Just imagine if I had been under the caravan at the time!!"

Serious. What kind of comment is that? Would anyone here really get underneath a caravan that is just held up on a jack? Jacking the van using a stiffener plate??? If it collapsed I would say it was your own fault for not thinking or checking that you are using a suitable jacking point with the jack you are using.
There is a pretty good chance that we will all end up jacking up a caravan on site at some time and you could easilly be on grass or a surface where a jack will sink in. First proiority should be to have some way of having a suitable surface for the jack rather than a trolley jack that is likely to be useless on soft ground. Do caravanners really drag weighty trolley jacks around with them?
Practical and Caravan doesn't seem to gell together with many caravanners it would seem

Many twin axled caravans which are fitted with Alko receivers have to be jacked up on site every time for the Alko locks to line up on both wheels.
DD didn't actually state that he did get under the caravan, his comment was merely conjecture about the consequences if he had done so.
The whole point of a caravan forum is to discuss issues affecting caravans and to exchange ideas and information which might be useful to fellow caravanners.
On this forum we don't criticise other forum members who may have not been aware of a situation or were not in possession of the correct information, we try to share ideas and information instead.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi all,
some good points there from the Prof. and no I 'm not surpised by the comments posted on the forum given that the average joe with a van will have little idea what is safe or the correct way of doing it, and if they have will be unlikely to have all the right equipment to hand to do it properly? and calling out the proffesionals is a no no as well because some think they should have the skill and tools to do it themselves. while all the time bearing in mind if something goes wrong it's all thier own fault.
personnaly if I had a flat on the grass I would call Green Flag after I had towed the van off the grass unto a hard standing.
but hey thats just me!!

 

[Gybe]

Many twin axled caravans which are fitted with Alko receivers have to be jacked up on site every time for the Alko locks to line up on both wheels.
DD didn't actually state that he did get under the caravan, his comment was merely conjecture about the consequences if he had done so.
The whole point of a caravan forum is to discuss issues affecting caravans and to exchange ideas and information which might be useful to fellow caravanners.
On this forum we don't criticise other forum members who may have not been aware of a situation or were not in possession of the correct information, we try to share ideas and information instead.

I don't want to offend but if you are jacking up several hundred kilo's of caravan without being able to have an idea of what is a safe point to utilise I feel that a little more than forum guidance is needed. I agree fully with paragraph two above. I'm advising and sharing the idea that even a thought or suggestion that you could be under a caravan when using a jack points to you obviously having little idea of danger or what you are doing. It raises serious concerns for the level of advice and guidance that is needed on this forum and in the magazine.

I wasn't suggesting that advice should not be given
.The best advice and training is fine. But if you can't work out where you can safely jack up a caravan and make sure the jack is on a safe surface with suitable footing should the person be on the road?

I've wondered why some people here have issues with punctures and changing a wheel. It seems we are going backwards and that only a few people have any practical skills and any idea on working out what is safe these days. What's happened with education learning and plain old common sense?
In my humble opinion PC Magazine and this website could obviously do with some very serious clear and explicit information and instructions on the use of tools and jacks and how they can be used safely.

 

[Gybe]

ps
Colin Yorkshire
Our first priorority with what we carry in our caravan comes before gadgets and some pretty pointless gizmos that we see being used.
We have 6 light corner steady pads made of durable alli chequre plate with wooden pads. They may have to be placed when we put the steadies down but they also double up making a firm base if the van needed a wheel changing on site.
My wife used to tow our caravan and now sometimes stays on sites without me, The jack we use could be operated by a child, it is bolted to a suitable base plate and locks securely in to the jacking points. My wife has probably changed more of our personal car wheels than me and our cars had tools suitable for her to do the job correctly and safely.
Forty four years ago when she passed her test aged 17 and got her first car her non driver parents got a local garage mechanic to train her how to change wheel and check over her car and change bulbs, he also got her a jack she could use and a wheel brace and lever she could use. We did the same when our children learnt to drive.
If a 17 year old girl could do the job safely I can't see the problem today

 

[Dustydog]

Morning Gybe

I had my first caravan in 1978 based on a Peak chassis.
The modern Al-ko chassis does NOT come standard with jacking points. You have to buy the Al-ko stiffener plates which then bolt to factory pre drilled holes in the chassis.. These stiffeners imo are not up to the job and do not have a great enough safety margin.

And no I am not a stupid enough old dog to lie under the caravan with only a jack for support.

The point of this thread and the previous thread was to open a sensible constructive technical debate about the best and safest way to jack up a caravan.
If you read all the posts that objective imo was achieved by many excellent contributions froma wide audience of seasoned caravanners.
I started this thread purely because of something Doug King wrote in PCV mag. Us old dogs honestly try in a very friendly way to make caravanning fun and safe

Prof John summed it up most succinctly too

 

[Gybe]

Morning Gybe
I had my first caravan in 1978 based on a Peak chassis.
The modern Al-ko chassis does NOT come standard with jacking points. You have to buy the Al-ko stiffener plates which then bolt to factory pre drilled holes in the chassis.. These stiffeners imo are not up to the job and do not have a great enough safety margin.
And no I am not a stupid enough old dog to lie under the caravan with only a jack for support.

The point of this thread and the previous thread was to open a sensible constructive technical debate about the best and safest way to jack up a caravan.
If you read all the posts that objective imo was achieved by many excellent contributions froma wide audience of seasoned caravanners.

I have a modern Al-Ko chassis caravan and I'm pretty sure that Al-Ko like most manufacturers advise that you only use their equipment with jacking points. If a caravanner decided the use a "stiffener plate" as a jacking point with another style of jack I don't see that as a wise or smart move.
Photo's of the bent stiffener plate in the other section also bring in to question the wisdom of putting a trolley under it to lift a caravan!
Stiffener Plate is just that I would assume!
A car has a wheel at each corner, when jacking a car you are normally liffing a minimal weight as 3 other wheels support a lot of the weight. With a caravan you can be lifting a lot more weight than a when jacking a car and that twisted stiffener plate is clearly not a suitable lifting point.

Colin posted
" I 'm not surpised by the comments posted on the forum given that the average joe with a van will have little idea what is safe or the correct way of doing it, and if they have will be unlikely to have all the right equipment to hand to do it properly"
I disagree, not any the average Joe caravanner I know or have come across.
If the "average Joe" caravanner has little idea of how to safely jack up a caravan and is travelling without the simple basic minimal tools to execute safe jacking of their caravan and removal of wheels my personal oppinion is that they should not be on the road.

My 44 year driver safe jacking and wheel changing capable wife has just paid our escalated AA membership fee, her view
"

No wonder we pay so much".

 

[Surfer]

hi all,
some good points there from the Prof. and no I 'm not surpised by the comments posted on the forum given that the average joe with a van will have little idea what is safe or the correct way of doing it, and if they have will be unlikely to have all the right equipment to hand to do it properly? and calling out the proffesionals is a no no as well because some think they should have the skill and tools to do it themselves. while all the time bearing in mind if something goes wrong it's all thier own fault.
personnaly if I had a flat on the grass I would call Green Flag after I had towed the van off the grass unto a hard standing.
but hey thats just me!!

Surely a lot of that is pure common sesne or haas that gone out the window. Agree about getting GF to do the job.

 

[Parksy]

..................Colin posted
" I 'm not surpised by the comments posted on the forum given that the average joe with a van will have little idea what is safe or the correct way of doing it, and if they have will be unlikely to have all the right equipment to hand to do it properly"
I disagree, not any the average Joe caravanner I know or have come across.
If the "average Joe" caravanner has little idea of how to safely jack up a caravan and is travelling without the simple basic minimal tools to execute safe jacking of their caravan and removal of wheels my personal oppinion is that they should not be on the road.

My 44 year driver safe jacking and wheel changing capable wife has just paid our escalated AA membership fee, her view
"

No wonder we pay so much".

There are at least 500 000 touring caravans in the UK according to the NCC so it's hardly surprising that there will be some caravan owners who wouldn't know a trolley jack from Sailor Jack and are not mechanically minded at all.
The advice given by Doug King in the December issue of Practical Caravan Magazine was that a trolley jack could be used to jack up a caravan, DustyDog has started this forum topic to challenge the advice given by Doug King because based on his own experience a trolley jack is not safe or entirely suitable.
Practical Caravan Magazine and also this forum are often used by those new to caravan ownership to pick up tips and advice, newbies start off with very little practical knowledge but with a little perseverance they soon learn the 'do's' and 'dont's' and go on to become safe, considerate caravanners.

DustyDog wrote in his original topic that the Alko Jack, made to use in conjunction with the Alko stiffener plates, is not really fit for purpose and advice was given by fellow forumites (including Damian the moderator who is a fully qualified caravan service engineer) on the best and safest way to jack up a caravan, with some very good suggestions also added to this thread.
It's quite true that some caravanners ought not to be on the road, we often see some of them during the peak summer months and hear the traffic reports when they fail to keep their caravan shiny side up, but the fact is that whatever a persons mechanical aptitude, knowledge or common sense there are touring caravan owners who will benefit from reading topics such as this one and Doug King may amend the advice that he gave in his magazine article.

 

[Gybe]

I didn't mean to upset or offend anybody. My wife has driven for longer than me and her non driving parents made sure she would not be stuck unable to jack up her car or change a wheel in the 60's, we did the same when our own children got on the road. apted We adapted the same car skills for the needs of caravanning.

Should there not be a PC / caravan community long over due camapaign for caravans to start coming fully equipped with fit for purpose jacks that even a 75 year old 5 stone granny could use rather than someone who has spent a year training at the Gym.

A fit for purpose caravan jack should also have some form of base plate for use on soft ground that many caravans spend a lot of time on. Jacks that are easy for anyone to use with caravans can be purchased for less than a family pay for a MaccyD's snack so whatt the >>>> have the caravan industry been playing at for years?

 

[Parksy]

I didn't mean to upset or offend anybody. My wife has driven for longer than me and her non driving parents made sure she would not be stuck unable to jack up her car or change a wheel in the 60's, we did the same when our own children got on the road. apted We adapted the same car skills for the needs of caravanning.

Should there not be a PC / caravan community long over due camapaign for caravans to start coming fully equipped with fit for purpose jacks that even a 75 year old 5 stone granny could use rather than someone who has spent a year training at the Gym.

A fit for purpose caravan jack should also have some form of base plate for use on soft ground that many caravans spend a lot of time on. Jacks that are easy for anyone to use with caravans can be purchased for less than a family pay for a MaccyD's snack so whatt the >>>> have the caravan industry been playing at for years?

Well may you ask Gybe, it wasn't too long ago that a caravan spare wheel was regarded by the caravan industry as an optional extra but shoddy after sales service, poor build quality, and water ingress came as standard items

Due at least in part to consumer pressure brought about by instant communication on internet websites such as this one, what was once a sort of cottage industry which largely failed to deliver acceptable standards of quality is very gradually being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century although there is still some considerable way to go.
Contrary to popular myth, Practical Caravan magazine does bring pressure to bear on caravan manufacturers to improve their products, and some of this pressure stems from items gleaned from this and other caravan forums because editorial staff do pick up on build quality grumbles, comments about equipment failure and safety issues which are discussed on the internet in real time by real caravanners.

 

[Gybe]

Agreement there.
We walked away from buying a caravan a few years ago when the dealer wanted extra for a spare wheel. They soon changed their minds as we started hooking up our old caravan.

The Al-Ko wheel locking issue is a clasic case of a good idea with good intention but very poor design and lack of thought for the users.
All caravan manufacturers and Al-Ko (chassis suppliers) should be required to supply an easy lift jack with provision for using it on soft campsite soft ground.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi all, and Gybe,
what I think we have here is a difference of perspective, and possibly what is important to caravanners afterall we are not all the same or have the same knowlege, goals or outlook,
to be perfectly frank I think expecting everyone to have the knowlege and tools to hand to perform all the nessasary tasks that one may come across is a little narrow or even vain..
many acedemics are inept at practical things they call an electrian out to change a flouresent lightbulb as they have no idea where to start, some of them may even have caravans, who knows.
one can only speak for ones self here though. can I change a wheel of course I could as well as do my own servicing and rewire the van if I had to but choose not to, instead I buy breakdown insurance from greenflag,

as green 17 yearold just passed the test I undertook to learn as much about cars as possible (it helped having a brother who was a mechanical engineer) and did everything myself, "one had to in those days as cars broke down quite often" at one time I carried more tools in the boot than a small workshop, but 2 things changed all that cars got more reliable and I had all the tools stolen from the car

, these days I do as little as possible and pay proffesionals to do it instead, thats my choice.
so I leave it at that.

 

[Gybe]

If you choose to call out a mechanic and pay the full going market rates for having a trained man in a van change a wheel as you can't be bothered to do what you're easily capable of that would be fine.

Loading the cost of call out on to all RAC, Green Flag or AA paying customers for what is part of normal wear and tear of motoring rather than more technical mecahnical or electrical breakdown is another matter

Drivers might as well start calling out Green Flag for refilling the washer bottle or topping up the oil. Opening a bonnet can be pretty tricky and if you don't locate the bonnet stay correctly you can get a nasty bang on the head and God help us should drivers be incapable of re securing their bonnets correctly and decide that it really needs a fully trained with H&S degree pro to attend
'

 

[SteveW77]

If you choose to call out a mechanic and pay the full going market rates for having a trained man in a van change a wheel as you can't be bothered to do what you're easily capable of that would be fine.

Loading the cost of call out on to all RAC, Green Flag or AA paying customers for what is part of normal wear and tear of motoring rather than more technical mecahnical or electrical breakdown is another matter

Drivers might as well start calling out Green Flag for refilling the washer bottle or topping up the oil. Opening a bonnet can be pretty tricky and if you don't locate the bonnet stay correctly you can get a nasty bang on the head and God help us should drivers be incapable of re securing their bonnets correctly and decide that it really needs a fully trained with H&S degree pro to attend
'

After paying for full European membership for the last 12 years, I have no problem with asking the members of RAC Arrival to pay for the one wheel change I called them out for.
It was on a German Autobahn, but even if it had been on an A road in this country, I would still have called on their services, after all that is what I pay my membership fee for.

Steve W

 

[Parksy]

Police and safety organisations strongly recommend that drivers use the breakdown / rescue services for wheel changes and other breakdowns on motorway hard shoulders.
I have all of the tools and more than enough mechanical know how to carry out any job on my car or caravan, and my 4x4 towing vehicle has a 3 tonne hydraulic bottle jack as standard equipment, but motorway hard shoulders are very dangerous places to be which is why I would always use my RAC membership in that situation.