Fit for the purpose

[Surfer]

When you purchase a new caravan and take delivery, as per the Sale of Goods Act, the caravan is not fit for the purpose of caravanning unless you purchase a battery and a gas cylinder to make it operational and fit for the purpose.

Are dealers acting illegally by selling caravans that are not fit for the purpose because in the T & Cs of the purchase contract it does not state that the caravan is not fit for the purpose because it has not battery and gas cylinder?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Ian,

Do I detect some anger here?

Using your argument that dealers should supply both Gas and a Battery to make the caravan 'fit for purpose' can be extended much further. How about crockery, food, clothes, and of course, a car to tow it with?

Of course I am being devils advocate here.

On a more realistic note, most modern UK caravans are fitted with a 12V (nominal) power supply running from the 230Vac mains . The specification of these will in most cases allow the 12V equipment to operate without a battery being present. So a battery is not essential.

Equally most caravans are now fitted with fridges, water and space heaters that will also run of 230V ac mains supplies. You may argue that the cooker is still gas, but many people choose to eat from BBQ's or go to restaurants etc, So again gas is not essential to the running of a caravan.

As there are more than one suppliers of LPG around the country, fitting a particular brand may not be the ideal choice for the customer.

In terms of' fit for purpose' for touring caravans, it would apply to things such as the construction, function and safety of the caravan.

You can specify and make certain items 'essential' at the time you place your order, but these items will be charged on top of the basic cost of the caravan.

 

[Lutz]

I go along with what John says. Most Continental caravans don't have batteries, some don't even have provisions for one. And, as for gas, surely it's up to the owner to decide what brand of gas he wants to use. If he wants to go for a BP GasLight one, for example, why should he have to pay for another one first that he doesn't want?

 

[Diane1]

Fit for the purpose means "as described in product contract or broucher". Hence no battery or gas bottles. These would be classed as optional extras as they are not part of or built in.

 

[Surfer]

Apologies, I should have been more specific as I was referring in the main to no "battery". If you bought an awning would you expect it to have pegs and poles? In some other countries when you buy a unit it comes supplied with everything including the awning, water barrel, waste master etc.

No wonder dealers rip us off when people roll over and up. Generally if you buy a DVD player it is because you will be using loads of different DVDs etc so you do not expect a DVD with it although it many cases you are supplied swith a sample DVD. If it was a portable unit, more than likely you will be supplied with batteries, i.e. a laptop computer. Can you holiday in a caravan for a week without power or water on a CL?

The caravan performs a number of other functions in addition to sleeping in it as a caravan is regarded as a mobile home. What sort of home do you have that has not got power etc. This subject is only applicable to caravans that will not work if there is not a battery in circuit. Many caravans will function without a battery but some don't!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Diane,

I think your definition of 'fit for purpose' is too narrow. Consider caravan designs:

Historically there have been many manufacturers producing what are very similar products that have many common features. To a large extent these common feature will be accepted as establishing a minimum standard, and as they are so common, most will not be defined in the products retail description or contract of sale.

As an example, I would expect a caravan to keep the rain out (though it seems a few don't). But this is not specified in the product contract or brochure. It is reasonable to expect a caravan to be rainwater proof, so if it does leak then it is reasonable to claim it is not fit for purpose.

Despite the omission of this criteria in the paper work, If customers challenged it, they would almost certainly win on the basis that the design or manufacture has rendered a product that is not fit for purpose.

Fit for purpose actually has a wider implication than just 'as described in product contract or brochure'. Where a product is a general me-too design and there is considerable pre existing design or similar product experience, then the wealth of experience would be considered as benchmark against which the specific product in question could be judged.

'Ronseal' has got round this by their advertising phrase, 'it does exactly what it says on the tin' In other words they are limiting their guarantee of performance to the specific criteria listed on the tin. If it fails in any other application they cannot be held responsible. - neat hey?

 

[Geist]

Bravo! - 'Fir For Purpose' means the purpose of being towed behind a vehicle - and you can't do that without a vehicle, so I demand that a suitable tow car is thrown in in with the price of the caravan

Seriously, I have little time for, or faith in, dealers - but even I would baulk at insisting on free gas bottles and a battery why not go the whole hog and get some sleeping bags, toilet fluid, crockery, pans, awning, groundsheet, aquaroll (and Wastemaster, of course), LCD TV - and some free camp site vouchers would be nice as well

 

[Diane1]

Sorry John L, but if you went to a court of law that is what would be said! Even if there are grey areas, they would say that it would have to be in writeing. I have a rather boring book in work on trading law, but it is broken down quite well. If i get a chance i will copy some of it on here if you like?

I only charge

 

[Surfer]

Now I know why it is called rip off Britain because people just give up on their rights and let dealers and financial institutes walked all over them! I sort of expected some constructive comments but obviously a few chose to be rather petty with their remarks but that is your perogative if you want to get ripped off. Me, I am taking it further and I know I will get results either way.

 

[ooo000ooo]

I'm quite new here so i presume there's some kind of background story to this? If there's not then it's a pretty poor rant which either says more about the op's inability to read the description of what he's buying or his ability to negotiate a decent deal with the vendor.

I score this rant 2/10

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Diane,

I am not trained in law so I do not have the benefit of your boring book.

All I can point to on this matter is the fact that I have witnessed a case where benchmarking was used to establish what should be the normal expectations that a customer should have for a particular product. (not a caravan). The was seller was found to have supplied an unfit product because it failed to perform anywhere close to the industry norms and thus the purchasers expectations.

Perhaps this is a case of a little information can be dangerous, but as ever its down to interpretation, and lawyers have been known to wrong before! - in fact every lawyer that looses a case must be wrong so that is 50% of the profession is wrong at any one time.

As I understand it contract law and I assume trading falls into arena of the civil courts. Civil actions in the UK are guided by the balance of probabilities, rather than strict adherence to a written document. This is how and why a contract can be judged unfair, even though all parties may have signed up to it in good faith.

Will please confirm in writing, that I will get my double club card points if I use your services? And what prize do I get if I spot you in my local store?

 

[colin(bridgend)]

John you will be lucky to spot Diane in any store - she has been employed in Bridgend for a few years and my wife and I have shopped there for over twenty years and this week was the first I saw of her. It would be a similar competition to Spot The Ball whereby you would mark an X on the plan layout of the store where you think she would be. To be honest I don't think Diane would even win it. Probably the nearest would be someone who had an OS sheet of south Wales and put a X on Swansea.

 

[Diane1]

Thats it i am off to work for M&S!

Caravans are slightley different as this lies in the same catogery as cars! That is were this thing about it has to be in a written contract or part of the agreed purchase or discribed to come with.

We purchased our caravan in June. Ade is a very shrewed man and likes everything in writting. When we arrived to pick it up they starter pack containing our, leads waterhog,waste hog, awning was missing ect.

I am not having this he says!

We had already read up on this, so in he marches and lays it on the line! wheres our gas bottle we ask? Oh no gas bottle not mentioned in any of the paper work, note on the delivery note or the pre delivery contract, so wheres everything else ah now that is here.

Rang trading standards(just to make sure) nothing we can do, If its not on the spec. sheat or the pre- contract and because we paid cash nothing we can do.

HOWEVER, if you have paid by lloyds bank finance the will fight your case for you. DID YOU KNOW THAT? If you Ian ring them they may be able to withold part of the finance until this guy comes up with the goods.

Legally they are correct. Unless state on the spect sheat they are optional extras and not classed as part of the caravan. So your caravan is fit for the purpose.

 

[Geist]

Now I know why it is called rip off Britain because people just give up on their rights and let dealers and financial institutes walked all over them! I sort of expected some constructive comments but obviously a few chose to be rather petty with their remarks but that is your perogative if you want to get ripped off. Me, I am taking it further and I know I will get results either way.

I assumed that your original post was a bit tongue-in-cheek, because it is so patently absurd.

If however, you really *are* planning to hound some wretched dealer just because his sale contract didn't specify that you needed a gas bottle (the mind boggles!) then, it stops being a bit of fun, and starts becoming rather sad.

'Take it further' by all means - and best of luck. However, by indulging in this sort of frivolous litigation you are, in my opinion, harming those who have genuine purchase grievances to sort out.

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Surely under the Sale of Goods Act common sense must also prevail. I would have thought that the Act would be interpretated according to the actual goods being offered for sale. If there should be gas bottles, awning, etc. included in the sale of a caravan then the seller is only going to charge over and above to cover his costs. I have never bought gas from a dealer - obtained initial empty bottle from the local recycling centre for free and then off to a gas supplier for an exchange thereby not having to pay the initial deposit for the bottle. Also bought awning second hand from a friend who was changing his van.