For Lutz.

[ProfJohnL]

Hi Lutz,

You may recall I thought I could not tow my 2T MTPLM trailer part loaded with my car of MTM 1T6.

I posed the question to the Bods and HMGov, and they came back with the answer. You were right. I can.

You can tow any trailer provided its actual mass is no more than the MTM defined by the vehicle manufacture - even if the tralier's MTPLM is greater. This makes sense, though it makes PC Plod's job more difficult if trying to prove overloading.

I have informed my 'trailer expert', and he was surprised.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Lutz]

I'm pleased to have my reply confirmed by a official third party.

 

[Meister]

I cant see that this will make PC Plods (your words) job any more difficult.

They can simply take you to a weighbridge then measure the gross train weight and if you are over this you are committing an offence.

Likewise with your caravan.They can simply weigh it by itself and if it is over the MTPLM you are committing an offence.

Steve

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Meister,

I was originally given the explination by an experienced trailer dealer, that if a vehicle was towing a trailer where the trailers MTPLM was greater than the MTM it was an illegal combination, regardless if the actual trailer mass was within the vehicles MTM.

This was a simple paper exercise, and did not require the use of weighbridges etc.

The later improved info I have now means that the regulations require the actual weights, so a visit to the weighbridge is always required.

This goes to reinforce my own advice about always going to the horses mouth to obtain the best advice, and not relying on heresay, even if the source gives the impression of being reliable.

 

[Meister]

Hi John,

I agree 100% with your comment regarding going straight to the horses mouth. There are to many "experts" out there who actually do little more than speak from the base of their spine !! lol

Steve

 

[RogerL]

Does this information relate to pre-1997 and post-1997 drivers?

For pre-1997 drivers (and post-1997 if they've also passed the E trailer test) there is no legal concept of a 100% limit. These drivers can, and do, legally tow trailere which exceed the tow vehicles' kerbweight but only if it's within the GTW, GVW and MTPLM.

For post-1997 drivers who haven't passed the E trailer test, then the trailer cannot exceed 100% of the tow vehicle's kerbweight. The trailer weight was originally taken as it's MTPLM rather than actual - but John L's info from HMG contradicts this and that it's the actual weight which cannot exceed 100%.

It does make things more complicated as the police do need to get the trailer on a weighbridge rather than just record it's plated MTPLM.

 

[Lutz]

JohnL's (and my) info applies only to drivers who passed their test before the 1st January 1997 or those who have a B+E licence. For all others, the maximum permissible trailer weight is what counts, not the actual weight.

Unfortunately, this still leaves room for confusion because the law is unclear as to exactly what is meant by kerbweight of the towcar. Is it the ex-works kerbweight or the actual kerbweight? Take a van which has been converted to a motor home, for example. Is the ex-works kerbweight of the van the definitive value for establishing the legal weight ratio limit or is it that of the motor home after conversion? In a case like that the difference could be quite appreciable. Only the actual figure makes sense, but then how would the police establish the actual kerbweight? In order to do so they would have to put the car on a weighbridge. But what if one is on holiday, towing the caravan, and the whole family and all their luggage is on board? The police would have to ask all the passengers to get out and all the luggage to be removed first - an absolutely absurd situation. It strikes me that the lawmakers didn't fully understand the consequences of their regulations when they drew them up.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Does this information relate to pre-1997 and post-1997 drivers?

For pre-1997 drivers (and post-1997 if they've also passed the E trailer test) there is no legal concept of a 100% limit. These drivers can, and do, legally tow trailere which exceed the tow vehicles' kerbweight but only if it's within the GTW, GVW and MTPLM.

For post-1997 drivers who haven't passed the E trailer test, then the trailer cannot exceed 100% of the tow vehicle's kerbweight. The trailer weight was originally taken as it's MTPLM rather than actual - but John L's info from HMG contradicts this and that it's the actual weight which cannot exceed 100%.

It does make things more complicated as the police do need to get the trailer on a weighbridge rather than just record it's plated MTPLM.

Hi Roger,

As lutz subsequently explains the question related to the cars ability rather than the drivers license.

I shall not embarrass my 'trailer expert by naming, but it was advice he was regularly giving, and he jokingly made the point that sometimes customers had sent someone to collect a large new box trailer in a car, and he refused to release the trailer because the trailer MTPLM was greater than the cars MTM. He genuinely thought he was protecting his customers.

He tells me that he only started doing this about 6 years ago when one of his customers reported they had been stopped on their way home from the sales patch by the police because 'the trailer looked too big for the car'. Under scrutiny of the documentation and trailer and tow bar plates it is reported the offices pointed out that the MTPLM was greater than the tow bars limit. The customer was let off with a warning from the officers and was allowed on their way to complete the journey under instructions to be very careful. We don't know if any further action was taken.

It seems to me that the if the story is accurate, then the police were in error, but perhaps they had some other reason to pull the outfit over which the customer did not relate.