My fridge will not run on gas it will fire up but the moment you release the gas button it cuts out . The automatic ignition starts to click push the button back in and it fires up again release the button cuts out . Any ideas my van is a compass omega 534 2004 I'd like to go off grid cheers
Fridge won't run on gas
- Thread starter 1961angel
- Start date
I think that the fridge would need to be removed, so I would leave it to a competent gas fitter or a caravan dealer.
Steve W
Steve W
All work on domestic and commercial gas appliances and systems must be carried out by a registered Gasafe fitter.
Whilst the thermocouple is a possible contender for the symptom, it is not the only one. a compenet fitter will be able to diagnose and sort the problem out.
As an aside, and this is not intended as a personal attack, but if you need to ask how to do a job, then you are not competent to do it.
Whilst the thermocouple is a possible contender for the symptom, it is not the only one. a compenet fitter will be able to diagnose and sort the problem out.
As an aside, and this is not intended as a personal attack, but if you need to ask how to do a job, then you are not competent to do it.
Prof John L said:
the only time you need to be gas safe for caravans and Motorhomes is if they are used as a permenat dwelling or used for hire and reward. Otherwise ACoPS is fine
Without worrying for the moment about qualifications or not, try this possible simple fix.
Set gas knob to correct lighting postion and then pull the knob off, now try lighting it and see if it stays lit when you let go of the stem the knob fits on.
If it does then you will need to find something about 2mm thick to pop into the knob and then when refitted the knob won't foul on the fasic preventing the gas valve fully opening.
If not though, in truth it's about 100 times more likely the flame is not correct rather than the thermocouple being faulty, albeit a loose or corroded thermocouple connection to the gas valve is a slight possible that needs checking
Set gas knob to correct lighting postion and then pull the knob off, now try lighting it and see if it stays lit when you let go of the stem the knob fits on.
If it does then you will need to find something about 2mm thick to pop into the knob and then when refitted the knob won't foul on the fasic preventing the gas valve fully opening.
If not though, in truth it's about 100 times more likely the flame is not correct rather than the thermocouple being faulty, albeit a loose or corroded thermocouple connection to the gas valve is a slight possible that needs checking
Hello Martin,
I choose my words very carefully and I think you will find I am correct.
I will happily discuss my statement further in private if you wish to direct your questions or points to me through Parksy.
I choose my words very carefully and I think you will find I am correct.
I will happily discuss my statement further in private if you wish to direct your questions or points to me through Parksy.
Damian
Moderator
Quote "
I choose my words very carefully and I think you will find I am correct."
As far as Domestic and Commercial gas work is concerned then the engineer MUST be Gas safe Registered.
As far as Caravans go, an owner can do anything they want to their own van without formal qualifications as such as long as they are "Competent" and as long as that van is not used by anyone else.
A service engineer working on customers vans must be at the minimum ACoPS qualified, they do NOT have to be Gas safe
I choose my words very carefully and I think you will find I am correct."
As far as Domestic and Commercial gas work is concerned then the engineer MUST be Gas safe Registered.
As far as Caravans go, an owner can do anything they want to their own van without formal qualifications as such as long as they are "Competent" and as long as that van is not used by anyone else.
A service engineer working on customers vans must be at the minimum ACoPS qualified, they do NOT have to be Gas safe
Damaian has let the cat out of the bag!
The way the Gas safety (Installation and Use) Regulations are written do exclude private touring an self propelled mobile homes from the general terns of the regulations. That is a recipe for literal disaster, which I know from a professional involvement with the industry. However as Damian states if the caravan is to be used by other people either as a borrow or as a hire the work must then be carried out by recognised competent fitter.
It can be argued if a private owner asks anyone else to do any work on the gas system (even other members of the family) they are working as a contractor even if no money is changing hands, so that person doing the 'work' must be appropriately accredited, and must work to the GS(I&U)Regs and codes of practice.
I have had to deal with a number of instances where DIYer's have tampered with appliances and installations that have caused injury and with near fatal consequences. For this reason I do not inform private owners of their dispensation from the regs, but prefer to emphasis the need for professionals to complete and test the work.
I make no bones about the fact I would prefer (From a safety point of view) have the private owners exclusions removed from the GS(I&U) regs. I continue to lobby to get these regulations changed.
The way the Gas safety (Installation and Use) Regulations are written do exclude private touring an self propelled mobile homes from the general terns of the regulations. That is a recipe for literal disaster, which I know from a professional involvement with the industry. However as Damian states if the caravan is to be used by other people either as a borrow or as a hire the work must then be carried out by recognised competent fitter.
It can be argued if a private owner asks anyone else to do any work on the gas system (even other members of the family) they are working as a contractor even if no money is changing hands, so that person doing the 'work' must be appropriately accredited, and must work to the GS(I&U)Regs and codes of practice.
I have had to deal with a number of instances where DIYer's have tampered with appliances and installations that have caused injury and with near fatal consequences. For this reason I do not inform private owners of their dispensation from the regs, but prefer to emphasis the need for professionals to complete and test the work.
I make no bones about the fact I would prefer (From a safety point of view) have the private owners exclusions removed from the GS(I&U) regs. I continue to lobby to get these regulations changed.
John,
i agree its not good for general public know what they can and can't do gas wise, but my response didn't include such information and what I posted was correct, as is Damian's post, Damian does hold higher certification than I do though.
i agree its not good for general public know what they can and can't do gas wise, but my response didn't include such information and what I posted was correct, as is Damian's post, Damian does hold higher certification than I do though.
Damian
Moderator
I must reply to the statements made.
My own personal view is that anyone doing any gas work on their own van, without the proper level of knowledge and certification is foolhardy to say the least, and potentially dangerous.
The problem is with the law and wording, where the law states that the person doing their own work must be "competent" and that leaves a big gap, as competency can only be quantified by certification..
The acid test would be if the owner caused a situation which ended up with him in court and trying to convince a Judge , without the relevant certification, that he was "competent", just before he was sent to prison and fined very heavily.
If an owner does his own work, without the relevant knowledge of GSIUR'S, he cannot claim to be competent, and any work he does do, MUST comply with GSIUR'S.
To clarify what has already been said, ANY caravan/motorhome which is let out or loaned to other people or hired out MUST have all gas work done by Gas Safe engineer.
Having seen some of the "work" done by owners and having had to put it all right for their safety and that of others, I would much rather that ALL gas work was regulated under ACoPs and Gas Safe, and that any interference by owners was made illegal.
I know full well that this posting will get some people hot under the collar and protest thatthey have done this or that with no problems and that in their view they are competent, be that as it may, they are not, they have just been lucky.
My own personal view is that anyone doing any gas work on their own van, without the proper level of knowledge and certification is foolhardy to say the least, and potentially dangerous.
The problem is with the law and wording, where the law states that the person doing their own work must be "competent" and that leaves a big gap, as competency can only be quantified by certification..
The acid test would be if the owner caused a situation which ended up with him in court and trying to convince a Judge , without the relevant certification, that he was "competent", just before he was sent to prison and fined very heavily.
If an owner does his own work, without the relevant knowledge of GSIUR'S, he cannot claim to be competent, and any work he does do, MUST comply with GSIUR'S.
To clarify what has already been said, ANY caravan/motorhome which is let out or loaned to other people or hired out MUST have all gas work done by Gas Safe engineer.
Having seen some of the "work" done by owners and having had to put it all right for their safety and that of others, I would much rather that ALL gas work was regulated under ACoPs and Gas Safe, and that any interference by owners was made illegal.
I know full well that this posting will get some people hot under the collar and protest thatthey have done this or that with no problems and that in their view they are competent, be that as it may, they are not, they have just been lucky.
while I would not entirely disagree with the above statment and indeed the stance the that the Prof takes on such matters, it must also be understood that exeptions to regulations (any regulations) is done for a reason. and this is to prevent proffesional rip off merchants taking us all for a ride, regulations are there to idiot proof installations, and while this is a good thing it can get out of hand at times, this is one of the reasons all domestic electrical appliances now come with a preformed tamperproof plug, so some idiot can not wire it up wrong, (if you like lowering the whole population to the lowest level), it may be a suprise however to learn that some people can acctualy fit a plug correctly.Damian-Moderator said:
and why the word competent is used, where i would differ from Damians View is that any non proffesional doing a task is just lucky if it goes right, the simple answer is if you can "do" if you can't "dont".
imagine a world where only professionals were allowed to do anything, and DIY did not exist, for a start there would be no practical caravan magazine, or IKEA or B&Q to bring this a logical conclusion you would not be able or allowed to change the gas cylinder or even a light blub yourself let alone a plug,
now I'm not knocking the proffesionals point of view or anyone in that capacity, but if the time ever comes that I have to pay someone to do something that I could just as well do myself I for one will stop doing it"" and that includes caravanning.
Colin,
i guess the problem arises where someone thinks they can do but in reality they can't,, I am sure we have all come across people like this, and my view is that is what Damian, John and myself agree with the legislation.
i guess the problem arises where someone thinks they can do but in reality they can't,, I am sure we have all come across people like this, and my view is that is what Damian, John and myself agree with the legislation.
Indeed we have Martin, I have seen people that thought they could water ski or SCUBA dive without training or certification and ended up in hospital or a wheelchair, but thats not the point, preventing everyone exept the professional from doing repairs excludes the competent DIY'er along with everyone else, lets put it this way.Martin_E said:
if I want a house extension, I can draw up the plans myself, submit them myself, and build it myself, all subect to the relevent planning and building regulations with the work inspected at every stage, I do not need to be a professional architect, planner or builder, just be competent in each aspect, of the project.
now were talking about a tin box that is towed behind the car here. not building a bungalow, I think the regulators understand that and is the reason exeptions exist, now from a professional point of view this may be flawed, but do we really want to go all the way down that route and pay for bottle changing and EHU connection, as my dad would have said "thin edge of the wedge lad a very thin edge but still it's there".
Morning Colin,
i understand what you are saying, but using your example for instance..........
at each stage things are checked to make sure they are correct and at the all signed off to say they are correct.
i don't have a problem with people doing DIY, other than a lot of people who do tinker never have things serviced so their mistakes would probably not be picked up until it is to late.
Good example for caravans are sockets that have been added with wrong cabling, perfectly fine job for a house but totally wrong in a caravan/Motorhome, electric sockets or lights fitted in gas lockers, all wrong but fitted by so say competent DIY enthusiasts, perhaps the answer is compulsory servicing/inspection of these vehicles, not MOT's as this wouldn't pick up on most of the no no's that are carried out by home enthusiasts.
i understand what you are saying, but using your example for instance..........
at each stage things are checked to make sure they are correct and at the all signed off to say they are correct.
i don't have a problem with people doing DIY, other than a lot of people who do tinker never have things serviced so their mistakes would probably not be picked up until it is to late.
Good example for caravans are sockets that have been added with wrong cabling, perfectly fine job for a house but totally wrong in a caravan/Motorhome, electric sockets or lights fitted in gas lockers, all wrong but fitted by so say competent DIY enthusiasts, perhaps the answer is compulsory servicing/inspection of these vehicles, not MOT's as this wouldn't pick up on most of the no no's that are carried out by home enthusiasts.
Hello Colin,
I understand your perspective on the issue, but this thread is only looking at work on gas systems which along with electrics I argue are specialist/public areas and need to be considered on their own merits rather than trying to generalise the concept of proving competence across all technical subjects.
I understand that contrary to your perception that Gas and Electrical regulations arose out of the industry trying to 'keep jobs for the boys' the history is that when the industry was in its infancy, there were multiple gas suppliers and no designed common standards between them, so an appliance designed for use with one suppliers gas, was not could not be used on another suppliers system. In some cases it would be could be explosively dangerous. There are very similar parallels with the electricity supplies and appliances.
If you are old enough to remember, this was one reason why you used to find to find the appliance manufacturers were also the electrical and gas suppliers.
The regulations/standards came about primarily to set out minimum standards of commonality between systems to enable consumers to mix and match suppliers and appliances. The regulations have been refined over the years to ensure that safety is maximised by forcing the adopting of best practice. As such these regulations should continue to be revised as its essential to ensure the compatibility of concurrent systems and where necessary the segregation of non compatible systems in a ordered and predictable way.
I believe this essential where the commodity has such potential to be publicly dangerous if managed incorrectly. Using an examples already used in the thread, there is a significant difference between trying to go SCUBA diving and working on gas systems. Essentially SCUBA diving is an activity which is a solo or small contained group activity, If an incident occurs, then it little risk to the public and only really affects those in the immediate vicinity. By comparison inadequate work on gas or electrical systems could be detrimental to unsuspecting users or works in the future.
As a professional, there was always a degree of concern when setting to work on a DIY system, as you literally did not know what you find, and as there is a duty as the last person to work on a system under the Reg's to leave it safe, which meant either being satisfied the whole system was up to standard, or sealing the system to prevent it from being used, and issuing a prohibition notice.
I am also very concerned (through experience of having to work on DIY messes in the past) that particularly in caravans and motorhomes, the carcass of the systems are subject to quite hostile environmental conditions, especially vibration. It seems incredible that installations in such adverse conditions are allowed to be completed by anyone, where as installations in good stable buildings are highly regulated for reasons of safety. Illogical.
I have come across,
Under sized carcass pipes for the duty of the appliances.
finger tight compression fittings,
Over tightened compression fittings with restricted gas flows and severed pipes.
Compression fittings with no olives, Plumbers White or PTFE tape used instead. One even used 8mm pipe into 10mm fitting using duct tape to make up the pipe diameter - which then leaked as the LPG dissolved the tapes adhesive.
Red rubber hose used to connect appliances.
bottle pressure LPG connected directly to the carcass (no regulator)
Flues disconnected, Balanced flues fitted through cavity walls with the transfer tubes omitted.
Flues rerouted with dips that collect condensate.
A Carver Cascade two fitted upside down!!
Corroded steel gas pipes repaired with duct tape.
I'm sure that most other professional fitters will have similar or worse tales of woe.
I have also worked on investigations into incidents, and it frightening to think that people carry out work on systems they don't understand with such devastating consequences. Even a highly qualified hydraulics engineer did some work on a gas heater in a caravan and nearly killed his wife and daughter, because he did not have the correct knowledge on how gas appliances needed to be flued.
LPG is a wonderful fuel. Used and managed correctly LPG is great, but misguided tampering through inadequate knowledge raises the potential for disaster to self and public to unacceptable levels.
Regulations are not to protect jobs for the boys, but to raise self and public safety when dealing with hazardous materials, and as such I believe and lobby should apply to ALL gas installations.
I understand your perspective on the issue, but this thread is only looking at work on gas systems which along with electrics I argue are specialist/public areas and need to be considered on their own merits rather than trying to generalise the concept of proving competence across all technical subjects.
I understand that contrary to your perception that Gas and Electrical regulations arose out of the industry trying to 'keep jobs for the boys' the history is that when the industry was in its infancy, there were multiple gas suppliers and no designed common standards between them, so an appliance designed for use with one suppliers gas, was not could not be used on another suppliers system. In some cases it would be could be explosively dangerous. There are very similar parallels with the electricity supplies and appliances.
If you are old enough to remember, this was one reason why you used to find to find the appliance manufacturers were also the electrical and gas suppliers.
The regulations/standards came about primarily to set out minimum standards of commonality between systems to enable consumers to mix and match suppliers and appliances. The regulations have been refined over the years to ensure that safety is maximised by forcing the adopting of best practice. As such these regulations should continue to be revised as its essential to ensure the compatibility of concurrent systems and where necessary the segregation of non compatible systems in a ordered and predictable way.
I believe this essential where the commodity has such potential to be publicly dangerous if managed incorrectly. Using an examples already used in the thread, there is a significant difference between trying to go SCUBA diving and working on gas systems. Essentially SCUBA diving is an activity which is a solo or small contained group activity, If an incident occurs, then it little risk to the public and only really affects those in the immediate vicinity. By comparison inadequate work on gas or electrical systems could be detrimental to unsuspecting users or works in the future.
As a professional, there was always a degree of concern when setting to work on a DIY system, as you literally did not know what you find, and as there is a duty as the last person to work on a system under the Reg's to leave it safe, which meant either being satisfied the whole system was up to standard, or sealing the system to prevent it from being used, and issuing a prohibition notice.
I am also very concerned (through experience of having to work on DIY messes in the past) that particularly in caravans and motorhomes, the carcass of the systems are subject to quite hostile environmental conditions, especially vibration. It seems incredible that installations in such adverse conditions are allowed to be completed by anyone, where as installations in good stable buildings are highly regulated for reasons of safety. Illogical.
I have come across,
Under sized carcass pipes for the duty of the appliances.
finger tight compression fittings,
Over tightened compression fittings with restricted gas flows and severed pipes.
Compression fittings with no olives, Plumbers White or PTFE tape used instead. One even used 8mm pipe into 10mm fitting using duct tape to make up the pipe diameter - which then leaked as the LPG dissolved the tapes adhesive.
Red rubber hose used to connect appliances.
bottle pressure LPG connected directly to the carcass (no regulator)
Flues disconnected, Balanced flues fitted through cavity walls with the transfer tubes omitted.
Flues rerouted with dips that collect condensate.
A Carver Cascade two fitted upside down!!
Corroded steel gas pipes repaired with duct tape.
I'm sure that most other professional fitters will have similar or worse tales of woe.
I have also worked on investigations into incidents, and it frightening to think that people carry out work on systems they don't understand with such devastating consequences. Even a highly qualified hydraulics engineer did some work on a gas heater in a caravan and nearly killed his wife and daughter, because he did not have the correct knowledge on how gas appliances needed to be flued.
LPG is a wonderful fuel. Used and managed correctly LPG is great, but misguided tampering through inadequate knowledge raises the potential for disaster to self and public to unacceptable levels.
Regulations are not to protect jobs for the boys, but to raise self and public safety when dealing with hazardous materials, and as such I believe and lobby should apply to ALL gas installations.
I agree Martin, an inspection seems like a good idea, I have no problem with that!!, the only thing that rattles my cage a bit is the assuption that only so called professionals know how to do it right!!! seeing some of the efforts over the years leaves me very sceptical.
I wanted to fit a couple of extra sockets in the van a couple of years ago, as it had only "one" besides the TV, 10mins on internet for the information, and requirements, a trip to B&Q and 1hour later job done. proper kit proper cabling all nice and neat hidden by trunking.
quote from dealer for same job £100+.
oh, and as for the extension yes it fine, 20 years on, that more than can be said for our neibour who had one built for him, 5 years later new roof as it was leaking and caused extensive damp.
I wanted to fit a couple of extra sockets in the van a couple of years ago, as it had only "one" besides the TV, 10mins on internet for the information, and requirements, a trip to B&Q and 1hour later job done. proper kit proper cabling all nice and neat hidden by trunking.
quote from dealer for same job £100+.
oh, and as for the extension yes it fine, 20 years on, that more than can be said for our neibour who had one built for him, 5 years later new roof as it was leaking and caused extensive damp.
That crystalises the issue about professionals vs DIYers - some professionals have lower standards than middle-of-the-road DIYers - it may not be many but when you pay money AND get a worse job done than you could do yourself, it makes people very reluctant to trust the monitoring processes of the qualification authorities.colin-yorkshire said:
Lots of trades have a cowboy section - that's what needs eliminating, not more restriction on customers!
hi John, it's not a matter of "jobs for the boys" thats your definition although I supect theres an element of professional pride in there somewhere, yes the list of bodges is shocking, none of which could remotely be called competent,
I repeat not all DIY'ers are down at the lowest level!!
I repeat not all DIY'ers are down at the lowest level!!
colin-yorkshire said:
And not all professionals are at the highest level.
Some years ago we bought our first caravan, this was second hand and the owner had got an electrician (who normally rewired houses) to fit him a couple of extra 13amp sockets. The only problem was that he used normal twin & earth cable meant for a house!
My first job when we got the caravan home, was to rip out the wiring and replace it with flexible cable.
I'm with Colin on this one. I wonder how many "unqualified" caravaners have done work on their cars and got away with it? Replacing brake pads, bleeding the brakes, wiring up extra lights or towing sockets or even just changing the wheel (and not torqueing up the bolts)? Much more dangerous than minor work on LPG appliances by a competent DIY'er in my humble opinion yet it must be thousands.
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