We have a Sterling Europa 495 2004 and the fridge is small compared to the latest 'vans. Can a newer fridge be retro-fitted?
Fridges
- Thread starter Christine_374343882
- Start date
Hello Christine,
You may be able to have larger fridge fitted. It will depend on the available space for the fridge in your furniture.
I recommend you seek the advice of your local caravan dealer who will be able to check your available space and have access to the necessary fitting information for the new fridges.
I must remind you that all gas work including the removal of old appliances must be carried out by a competent person working to the regulations.
You may be able to have larger fridge fitted. It will depend on the available space for the fridge in your furniture.
I recommend you seek the advice of your local caravan dealer who will be able to check your available space and have access to the necessary fitting information for the new fridges.
I must remind you that all gas work including the removal of old appliances must be carried out by a competent person working to the regulations.
John - your comment about needing a competent person working to the regulations applies to domestic properties but not caravans - I think it's one of the most stupid exceptions to sensible safety regulations particularly given the poor quality of some caravan workshops.
Damian
Moderator
Quote:your comment about needing a competent person working to the regulations applies to domestic properties but not caravans "
The rules DO apply to caravans as well, as John has said.
The rules DO apply to caravans as well, as John has said.
Hello Roger,
You are partly correct. The Gas Regulations do differentiate between touring caravans, and other installations in so far that the person undertaking the work on a touring caravan does not have to be a 'registered' fitter, but that does not allow them to ignore other relevant legislation.
Health & Safety legislation is superior to the Gas Regulations. Technically this does apply to DIY as well as organisations. H&S make it a requirement on the responsible person for a gas system to ensure that only persons who are competent to do so, are allowed to work on the system.
Where the Gas regulations do allow a 'non-registered' fitter to work on a touring caravan, the work must still comply with H&S and all relevant standards, and that includes the need for testing. If the correct procedures for all aspects of the work are not completed correctly, then the fitter has failed to demonstrate competency.
To be compliant the fitter must therefore be 'competent' and 'able' to complete all aspects of the work in accordance with the regulations. It is conceivable that a non registered fitter may have the necessary skills, knowledge and equipment to comply.
It is therefore much easier to simply point out that a 'competent' person must do the work on touring caravans.
Sorry Roger but It is irresponsible to suggest that a non qualified person maintains / fits a fridge with Gas connection, Carbon monoxide exhaust also combined with electrical connections.
A Caravan is a very small space in which people sleep, any mistakes could have lethal consequences.
Think back a year or so to the Brit family tragedy in an aprtment in Corfu.
I take your point about the quality of some so say qualified people, and that not restricted to just caravan work.
A Caravan is a very small space in which people sleep, any mistakes could have lethal consequences.
Think back a year or so to the Brit family tragedy in an aprtment in Corfu.
I take your point about the quality of some so say qualified people, and that not restricted to just caravan work.
I'm not suggesting that an unqualified gas fitter does the work, I'm saying there's no legal requirement.
Caravan dealers don't have to employ qualified gas fitters to work on gas caravan appliances - it's not even a requirement of the Approved Caravan Workshop (ACW) scheme.
I think it's applalling that caravans aren't legislated for in the same way as residential properties.
Caravan dealers don't have to employ qualified gas fitters to work on gas caravan appliances - it's not even a requirement of the Approved Caravan Workshop (ACW) scheme.
I think it's applalling that caravans aren't legislated for in the same way as residential properties.
Damian
Moderator
Quote "Caravan dealers don't have to employ qualified gas fitters to work on gas caravan appliances - it's not even a requirement of the Approved Caravan Workshop (ACW) scheme."
Under the Approved Workshop Scheme, dealers or workshops MUST have qualified fitters to work on gas, and MUST have 16th Edition, now 17th Edition Electrical fitters to work on the mains electric.
Whilst it is true tat the gas fitters do not have to be CORGI registered to work on privately owned vans, they DO have to be ACOPS , or as it is now European Registration Scheme approved.
With both Gas and Electric, fitters MUST adhere to the current rules and regulations regarding the fitting and servicing of both types of equipment.
Under the Approved Workshop Scheme, dealers or workshops MUST have qualified fitters to work on gas, and MUST have 16th Edition, now 17th Edition Electrical fitters to work on the mains electric.
Whilst it is true tat the gas fitters do not have to be CORGI registered to work on privately owned vans, they DO have to be ACOPS , or as it is now European Registration Scheme approved.
With both Gas and Electric, fitters MUST adhere to the current rules and regulations regarding the fitting and servicing of both types of equipment.
Where is this new requirement?
The Jones Vening ACW Code of Practice, available on their website now, makes no reference to gas or electrical qualifications or standards.
I've had incompetent work carried out on my caravan's gas cooker by an ACW. During the subsequent invetigation it was made clear by Jones Vening that no minimum standards of work are required because legislation applicable to residential properties doesn't apply to touring caravans.
The fact that some caravan workshops have a fitter with gas and/or electric qualifications is no guarantee that the work will actually be carried out by that fitter or that it'll be carried out to any particular standard.
The Jones Vening ACW Code of Practice, available on their website now, makes no reference to gas or electrical qualifications or standards.
I've had incompetent work carried out on my caravan's gas cooker by an ACW. During the subsequent invetigation it was made clear by Jones Vening that no minimum standards of work are required because legislation applicable to residential properties doesn't apply to touring caravans.
The fact that some caravan workshops have a fitter with gas and/or electric qualifications is no guarantee that the work will actually be carried out by that fitter or that it'll be carried out to any particular standard.
Hello Roger,
Jones Venning are not the arbiter or custodian or the gas or electrical or any other fitting/ maintenance regulations, they only apply standards for customer care created and defined by NCC, the CC and the CCC - i.e. the trade.
JV's code of practice states:
"All Approved Workshops are ultimately responsible for the standard and quality of any work",
source: (http://www.jones-vening.co.uk/downloads/Code_of_Practice.pdf)
In other words JV do not get involved in assessing competence of businesses or fitters on gas systems. If they did, they could be held culpable if a breach of regulations were to occur. For similar reasons, they are unlikely to make any judgement on any claims about incompetence with gas systems. I consider that similar comments would apply to other services subject to close regulation such as electrical and water supplies.
So it is up to the individual business to assess their need to comply with regulations as JV will not force the issue.
However, and at the risk of repeating myself, the person who is responsible for a gas system (e.g. the owner, or in the case of rented/leased systems the manager) is required to ensue that only competent people are allowed to work on the system. This does not exclude touring caravans, so it is incumbent on caravan repair workshops to use only competent people though they do not need to be registered with CORGI or similar organisations.
Failure to comply is a breach of H&S regulations, which if detected and prosecuted is a criminal offence. Perhaps some workshops are not aware of this.
The Camping and Caravanning Club publishes a document "What to look for when you want your caravan or trailer serviced. Advice from The Camping and Caravanning Club".
It contains the following extracts:
"WHAT WORK SHOULD BE DONE BY EXPERTS?
Some jobs should only be tackled by qualified experts. Among them are:
■ Anything involving gas appliances - including refrigerator service - and
pressure testing the supply system.
■ Confirmation of the correct installation
Note: After a full service a dated certificate should always be provided and signed by an appropriately qualified engineer to verify the acceptability of:
■ The gas system "
Source: http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/Documents/Securing%20your%20Unit.pdf
Clearly the CCC are not happy with suggesting that owners tackle work on a gas system unless they are Expert. An expert has the knowledge and experience to be able to carry out a competent job.
In reality even with a fully qualified and registered fitter, there is the chance that the fitter may ignore or fail to work to the relevant standards. If they do not comply with the regs, or fail to follow the codes of practice, they are in breech of the regulations. The matter should be reported to Trading Standards, and possibly the HSE.
In short there is so much ancillary and new legislation, that if incompetent persons work on a gas system, there is an increasing chance that prosecution under various pieces of legislation may ensue, not to mention the increased risk of an accident if the correct fitting and testing procedures are not followed through.
With increasing European influences the matter is likely to be spelt out more coherently.
Jones Venning are not the arbiter or custodian or the gas or electrical or any other fitting/ maintenance regulations, they only apply standards for customer care created and defined by NCC, the CC and the CCC - i.e. the trade.
JV's code of practice states:
"All Approved Workshops are ultimately responsible for the standard and quality of any work",
source: (http://www.jones-vening.co.uk/downloads/Code_of_Practice.pdf)
In other words JV do not get involved in assessing competence of businesses or fitters on gas systems. If they did, they could be held culpable if a breach of regulations were to occur. For similar reasons, they are unlikely to make any judgement on any claims about incompetence with gas systems. I consider that similar comments would apply to other services subject to close regulation such as electrical and water supplies.
So it is up to the individual business to assess their need to comply with regulations as JV will not force the issue.
However, and at the risk of repeating myself, the person who is responsible for a gas system (e.g. the owner, or in the case of rented/leased systems the manager) is required to ensue that only competent people are allowed to work on the system. This does not exclude touring caravans, so it is incumbent on caravan repair workshops to use only competent people though they do not need to be registered with CORGI or similar organisations.
Failure to comply is a breach of H&S regulations, which if detected and prosecuted is a criminal offence. Perhaps some workshops are not aware of this.
The Camping and Caravanning Club publishes a document "What to look for when you want your caravan or trailer serviced. Advice from The Camping and Caravanning Club".
It contains the following extracts:
"WHAT WORK SHOULD BE DONE BY EXPERTS?
Some jobs should only be tackled by qualified experts. Among them are:
■ Anything involving gas appliances - including refrigerator service - and
pressure testing the supply system.
■ Confirmation of the correct installation
Note: After a full service a dated certificate should always be provided and signed by an appropriately qualified engineer to verify the acceptability of:
■ The gas system "
Source: http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/Documents/Securing%20your%20Unit.pdf
Clearly the CCC are not happy with suggesting that owners tackle work on a gas system unless they are Expert. An expert has the knowledge and experience to be able to carry out a competent job.
In reality even with a fully qualified and registered fitter, there is the chance that the fitter may ignore or fail to work to the relevant standards. If they do not comply with the regs, or fail to follow the codes of practice, they are in breech of the regulations. The matter should be reported to Trading Standards, and possibly the HSE.
In short there is so much ancillary and new legislation, that if incompetent persons work on a gas system, there is an increasing chance that prosecution under various pieces of legislation may ensue, not to mention the increased risk of an accident if the correct fitting and testing procedures are not followed through.
With increasing European influences the matter is likely to be spelt out more coherently.
John, I totally support the concept of only allowing competent people to work on gas or electric systems.
"the person who is responsible for a gas system (e.g. the owner, or in the case of rented/leased systems the manager) is required to ensue that only competent people are allowed to work on the system"
For a privately owned touring caravan, the requirement falls on the owner - but the owner has no way of knowing which person at a caravan workshop will be used, nor their individual competence.
Voluntary Codes of Practice don't do the consumer much good, but they're better than nothing.
"the person who is responsible for a gas system (e.g. the owner, or in the case of rented/leased systems the manager) is required to ensue that only competent people are allowed to work on the system"
For a privately owned touring caravan, the requirement falls on the owner - but the owner has no way of knowing which person at a caravan workshop will be used, nor their individual competence.
Voluntary Codes of Practice don't do the consumer much good, but they're better than nothing.
Damian
Moderator
Taken from the Assessment Criteria for consideration as a member of the Approved Workshop Scheme.
"Specific General Requirements:
ACOPS or equivalent for people working on gas systems, except if hire vehicles are involved, then CORGI registration is required.
50% of workshop staff to be city and guilds qualified.
New members of staff to be ACOPS or equivalent and city and guilds qualified with in 18 months.
Electrical qualification (16th Edition) or access to certified electrician (NICEIC or ECA)."
For an approved mobile workshop accreditation , the engineer MUST be both Gas qualified,ACOPS or ERS as it is now, AND either be 16th Edition qualified or have the services of a qualified electrician.
After a long time, the caravanning organisations have taken the issues of having properly qualified people working on caravans and have , and will be, tightening the rules to ensure as far as possible that the customer gets the proper level of expertise to keep their vans in good condition.
There are a whole raft of rules and regulations relating to the installation, test and safety of LPG systems in caravans and motorhomes, as well as static vans which are quite different to residential properties, and as such JV were right that residential legislation does not cover caravans.
"Specific General Requirements:
ACOPS or equivalent for people working on gas systems, except if hire vehicles are involved, then CORGI registration is required.
50% of workshop staff to be city and guilds qualified.
New members of staff to be ACOPS or equivalent and city and guilds qualified with in 18 months.
Electrical qualification (16th Edition) or access to certified electrician (NICEIC or ECA)."
For an approved mobile workshop accreditation , the engineer MUST be both Gas qualified,ACOPS or ERS as it is now, AND either be 16th Edition qualified or have the services of a qualified electrician.
After a long time, the caravanning organisations have taken the issues of having properly qualified people working on caravans and have , and will be, tightening the rules to ensure as far as possible that the customer gets the proper level of expertise to keep their vans in good condition.
There are a whole raft of rules and regulations relating to the installation, test and safety of LPG systems in caravans and motorhomes, as well as static vans which are quite different to residential properties, and as such JV were right that residential legislation does not cover caravans.
Approved Code of Practice (ACoP) is a quasi-legal document that provides information.
There's a big difference between a statutory requirement and a voluntary code of practice.
There's a big difference between a statutory requirement and a voluntary code of practice.
Damian
Moderator
The ACoPs qualification is actually no longer in existance as such.
The training and examination for accreditation to work on LPG on Caravans and Motorhomes is now undertaken by UKAS on behalf of the European Registration Scheme.
CORGI do not actually do any training, they are facilitators of training and the central registration body for qualified engineers.
The actual training is carried out at specialist centres and Tech Colleges and on the job under supervision.
Regardless of where the training is done, or the accreditation achieved, all gas fitters MUST adhere to the codes of practice in force, or be held liable for any mistakes.
Apart from the codes of practice, H&S rules MUST be followed to the letter, or risk prosecution and possibly a heavy fine, imprisonment or both.
The training and examination for accreditation to work on LPG on Caravans and Motorhomes is now undertaken by UKAS on behalf of the European Registration Scheme.
CORGI do not actually do any training, they are facilitators of training and the central registration body for qualified engineers.
The actual training is carried out at specialist centres and Tech Colleges and on the job under supervision.
Regardless of where the training is done, or the accreditation achieved, all gas fitters MUST adhere to the codes of practice in force, or be held liable for any mistakes.
Apart from the codes of practice, H&S rules MUST be followed to the letter, or risk prosecution and possibly a heavy fine, imprisonment or both.
This is another example of a POST being hijacked by the "experts" with little or no help to the simple question in the original post. Christine do wish you had not asked?. I do not know your caravan so I realy cannot say yes or know if a larger fridge could be fitted into your van. If I wanted to know I would email Stirling and ask, WHAT?, HOW and WHERE. Or I would approach a good dealer that has a good workshop and seek their advice. I suspect you could have a larger fridge but unless you are lucky and have free access space available without modification to your layout be prepared for a second mortgage. Good luck. JTS.
anyone carrying out worrk on gas appliances in a home does not need to be a registered fitter either
Hello Brum, JTS and Colin A
Please review the first answer in this thread, which directly answers Christine's question.
As for hijacking, I made a statement about having the work done by a competent person.
My reason for making it was to remind anyone who is thinking of undertaking work on a gas system, there are regulations that do apply even to touring caravans.
Others have challenged that, and it is only proper that the matter is debated.
Fortunately it has not degenerated into name calling or abuse.
Please review the first answer in this thread, which directly answers Christine's question.
As for hijacking, I made a statement about having the work done by a competent person.
My reason for making it was to remind anyone who is thinking of undertaking work on a gas system, there are regulations that do apply even to touring caravans.
Others have challenged that, and it is only proper that the matter is debated.
Fortunately it has not degenerated into name calling or abuse.
Christine
your plans look if it could cost an arm and two legs.We have a big fridge in our van but "she" still fills it up,we now also use a cool box. much cheaper that a fridge, can be used in any van. can be noisy at night so we keep it outside. also you can take it in the car when you go shopping and it will keep cool things cool.
David
your plans look if it could cost an arm and two legs.We have a big fridge in our van but "she" still fills it up,we now also use a cool box. much cheaper that a fridge, can be used in any van. can be noisy at night so we keep it outside. also you can take it in the car when you go shopping and it will keep cool things cool.
David
Many thanks for all the suggestions. Just to re-assure everyone I would have the fridge fitted by an'expert' it's not something I would trust to an unqualified person. However after reading the comments I may go with David's suggestion. Thanks again.
Just to put another slant to this thread.
Yes, gas appliances must be attended to by a competant person BUT any Tom Dick or Harry can mess about with the brakes on a car....Worrying or what?
Al
Yes, gas appliances must be attended to by a competant person BUT any Tom Dick or Harry can mess about with the brakes on a car....Worrying or what?
Al
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